Game of the Month SGs - Discussion Thread.
- Thread starter mad-bax
- Start date
- Status
Maybe you could get it mentioned on the CFC main page? I know this makes a big difference to the number of hits to my CIVReplay thread, and that's only a little entry in the new file announcements.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
I've not played GOTM1 so I don't know. I'll play-test it and if trivial I'll select another.
Offa: SG's are nothing to be frightened of. It's a little scary at first because you tend to feel that if you screw up then you are letting other people down, and not just yourself. But you get over this quite quickly.
About a week before the next GOTM SG starts I will post a game announcement thread. In that thread you will get a description of the game, and will be able to post your intention of participating. I will then assign you to a team. Depending on how many people want to play then there may be vanilla teams and PTW teams. You just pick which you want to play.
There are normally 5 or 6 people in a team and each player has three days to play his turns. On average though the games are turned around faster than this in the early game. Your turns will take around an hour at the start, but could lengthen to as much as three hours if you are into modern warfare at the end. If the turns become painfully long then you can cut them down to 5 per set. This is perfectly acceptable.
So in short you will probably need to spend a couple of hours every 10 days on the game. If you participate actively (which is encouraged) then you will download each save and examine the position so that you can offer informed advice on where the game should go. If you do this then you can spend as much time as you like.
Offa: SG's are nothing to be frightened of. It's a little scary at first because you tend to feel that if you screw up then you are letting other people down, and not just yourself. But you get over this quite quickly.
About a week before the next GOTM SG starts I will post a game announcement thread. In that thread you will get a description of the game, and will be able to post your intention of participating. I will then assign you to a team. Depending on how many people want to play then there may be vanilla teams and PTW teams. You just pick which you want to play.
There are normally 5 or 6 people in a team and each player has three days to play his turns. On average though the games are turned around faster than this in the early game. Your turns will take around an hour at the start, but could lengthen to as much as three hours if you are into modern warfare at the end. If the turns become painfully long then you can cut them down to 5 per set. This is perfectly acceptable.
So in short you will probably need to spend a couple of hours every 10 days on the game. If you participate actively (which is encouraged) then you will download each save and examine the position so that you can offer informed advice on where the game should go. If you do this then you can spend as much time as you like.
denyd
Emperor
The most difficult of the GOTM's that I've finished (probably completed 23-24) is the Iroquois diety game. That is one of my 3 losses in the GOTM. It's a real challenge.
I also enjoyed the Med Melee & the Asian Melee games.
I'd also like to mention that there are quite a few excellent tournament games and with those you'd be able to have regent/monarch team & a emperor/diety team for the different levels of players.
There's also the thought of playing one of the more recent games at Predator level.
However, I'm up for whichever is selected.
I also enjoyed the Med Melee & the Asian Melee games.
I'd also like to mention that there are quite a few excellent tournament games and with those you'd be able to have regent/monarch team & a emperor/diety team for the different levels of players.
There's also the thought of playing one of the more recent games at Predator level.
However, I'm up for whichever is selected.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
2 deity games in a row??!! Good grief. 
I'd like to drop the base difficulty this month to try to attract some people that may be put off by a deity game, but also I wanted to allow teams to optionally take on a bigger challenge by adopting one of the variants. If that variant is going to be AW then AWM is quite time consuming IMLE which is why I thought regent would be good. Because this is a discussion thread, I'm only flying a kite here and if people want something else then they'll get it.
Selection of the game to play is more complicated than I would like, and for the time being I have decided to restrict the choices to GOTM1 thru 14. There are certain advantages in playing an unmodded game in the early stages of this formats life. If and when the format gets taken over by the staff then things may change.
But yes, the games you mention would make for some entertaining games, and I myself look forward to playing them.
I'd like to drop the base difficulty this month to try to attract some people that may be put off by a deity game, but also I wanted to allow teams to optionally take on a bigger challenge by adopting one of the variants. If that variant is going to be AW then AWM is quite time consuming IMLE which is why I thought regent would be good. Because this is a discussion thread, I'm only flying a kite here and if people want something else then they'll get it.
Selection of the game to play is more complicated than I would like, and for the time being I have decided to restrict the choices to GOTM1 thru 14. There are certain advantages in playing an unmodded game in the early stages of this formats life. If and when the format gets taken over by the staff then things may change.
But yes, the games you mention would make for some entertaining games, and I myself look forward to playing them.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
A hearty 
to you mad-bax for your initiative on this project.
I like the idea of starting with GotM 1 and going forward. The idea of adding varient points is also a good idea. Imagine the scoce Dave McW would have had with his OCC win in the Med Melee. I would give the teams a few varient options. OCC, AW, 5CC, etc. You may get some very interesting games out of it.
to you mad-bax for your initiative on this project. I like the idea of starting with GotM 1 and going forward. The idea of adding varient points is also a good idea. Imagine the scoce Dave McW would have had with his OCC win in the Med Melee. I would give the teams a few varient options. OCC, AW, 5CC, etc. You may get some very interesting games out of it.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
Sir Bugsy: If we adopt your idea then we can just make a list of varients with the score bonus associated with each. In any of the SG's then, each team would have a free choice over which varient they would like to try. Getting the score bonuses right would be difficult for me, but I guess it could be done. There may be enough games like DaveMcW's OCC, and bamspeedys losing OCC in the Spanish game and Zwinglis 3CC in the celts game etc to get a feel for what some of the bonuses should be.
I heartily agree with this approach: only, let's be careful not to overdo things with too many variants right at the beginning.
It may be worth asking Aeson's opinion on the various bonuses.
In this regard, starting with GOTM1 makes sense as an "experimental" game; besides, an easy Regent game should attract many players.
I haven't played it though, so Offa may be right -have you got an idea of how many turns it can be expected to last? If it is in the range 100 to 150, it's a couple of rounds per player (assuming 5-player rosters). A bit short, but possibly a nice introductio to SGs for those who have never tried it.
It may be worth asking Aeson's opinion on the various bonuses.
In this regard, starting with GOTM1 makes sense as an "experimental" game; besides, an easy Regent game should attract many players.
I haven't played it though, so Offa may be right -have you got an idea of how many turns it can be expected to last? If it is in the range 100 to 150, it's a couple of rounds per player (assuming 5-player rosters). A bit short, but possibly a nice introductio to SGs for those who have never tried it.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
I think that OCC, 5CC and AW are enough to start with. I'm also in favour of keeping the penalty for breaking RBCiv rules. I don't want to complicate things too much. I just want the games to appeal to as many people as possible.
The best Jason date for conquest in GOTM1 is 150AD, and domination is 370AD. So I would guess that teams going for a military win will finish around the 500AD mark. Played as AW the date could be put back to 1000AD tops I think. So it will be a short game, but that was kind of my intention. I will play test the game though as I've said.
I'll PM Aeson and ask for his input, and I'll start looking at some of the past games to see if I can set reasonable varient bonuses.
The best Jason date for conquest in GOTM1 is 150AD, and domination is 370AD. So I would guess that teams going for a military win will finish around the 500AD mark. Played as AW the date could be put back to 1000AD tops I think. So it will be a short game, but that was kind of my intention. I will play test the game though as I've said.
I'll PM Aeson and ask for his input, and I'll start looking at some of the past games to see if I can set reasonable varient bonuses.
I'm sorry if I appear to be disparaging about GOTM1. It is a complete blast to play, and is one of the most enjoyable GOTMs. It's just that the settings Persia, Regent, Small Map make the game plan pretty simple, not to say brutal. I don't think any foreknowledge of the map is needed to predict how this will unfold.
In the early GOTMs the players at the time were able to do vast amounts of whipping, as this used to be very overpowered, and it will be interesting to see how much the loss of this will hinder players now.
In the early GOTMs the players at the time were able to do vast amounts of whipping, as this used to be very overpowered, and it will be interesting to see how much the loss of this will hinder players now.
RowAndLive
RAMMING SPEED!
MB: Some thoughts from a prospective player:
In reading this thread, the names are the same as are seen on the SGs page - which is great for experience, but will drive off many potential players just becuase they don't want to be 5th wheels or go up against experienced teams. I'd love a chance to play with some of these folks, but have had 2 things holding me back:
1 - I'm NOT a Diety-level player, and don't pretend to be. I've
been wanting to do an SG, but from the outside it seems very
much like a closed club of very high level players. Unless you
can break this up, you will be left with the same talent pool
to draw from. Teams of mixed skill levels might be a good way
to do that. It also seems that a lot of the "names" that were
in the earlier GOTMs have now left the fold to go to RBCiv -
Sirian, Charis, etc. If you want to keep the group in the upper
ranges, then perhaps you'd have to adopt their rules to draw
them back in. If not, then again, you're left with the same
talent pool. Rather than worrying about growing the
participation, you first need to decide on your target group.
2 - I don't have C3C, have no interest in migrating, and frankly
have found it to be driving me away from the site. Most of
the new user-developed maps are now C3C. Many of the
stories are C3C. And it seems inevitable that GOTM will go
that way too. I agree with Cracker that they are different
enough that they really can't be compared. While I recognize
that things will go that way as they have with each previous
revision, it's really too different to have been called Civ 3.
Other thougths on your questions: I'd like to see different civs, rather than just re-hashing the GOTM with a mixed team. I find it hard to believe that enyone could remember the resource placement enough to have an impact if they started in a different position - unless the look it up intentionally / cheat. Specific challenges (AW, OCC, etc.) would be fine, but I think you'd want to leave the time frame open, as many potential players (like me) have limits on their participation due to real life. I just can't fit a GOTM into a month... Again, it depends on who you want as your target group.
Good luck!
In reading this thread, the names are the same as are seen on the SGs page - which is great for experience, but will drive off many potential players just becuase they don't want to be 5th wheels or go up against experienced teams. I'd love a chance to play with some of these folks, but have had 2 things holding me back:
1 - I'm NOT a Diety-level player, and don't pretend to be. I've
been wanting to do an SG, but from the outside it seems very
much like a closed club of very high level players. Unless you
can break this up, you will be left with the same talent pool
to draw from. Teams of mixed skill levels might be a good way
to do that. It also seems that a lot of the "names" that were
in the earlier GOTMs have now left the fold to go to RBCiv -
Sirian, Charis, etc. If you want to keep the group in the upper
ranges, then perhaps you'd have to adopt their rules to draw
them back in. If not, then again, you're left with the same
talent pool. Rather than worrying about growing the
participation, you first need to decide on your target group.
2 - I don't have C3C, have no interest in migrating, and frankly
have found it to be driving me away from the site. Most of
the new user-developed maps are now C3C. Many of the
stories are C3C. And it seems inevitable that GOTM will go
that way too. I agree with Cracker that they are different
enough that they really can't be compared. While I recognize
that things will go that way as they have with each previous
revision, it's really too different to have been called Civ 3.
Other thougths on your questions: I'd like to see different civs, rather than just re-hashing the GOTM with a mixed team. I find it hard to believe that enyone could remember the resource placement enough to have an impact if they started in a different position - unless the look it up intentionally / cheat. Specific challenges (AW, OCC, etc.) would be fine, but I think you'd want to leave the time frame open, as many potential players (like me) have limits on their participation due to real life. I just can't fit a GOTM into a month... Again, it depends on who you want as your target group.
Good luck!
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
You are my target Group RAL. If you have followed the thread reasonably closely then you will see that the next game will be at a lower base difficulty than previously. All the games will be available in Civ3 1.29f. PTW and C3C will only be made available if there is enough interest AND the staff have the time to help us out.
You will be neither a fifth wheel or up against elite teams if you join. The formation of elite teams will kill the format IMO and I said so a few posts up. Sure, there may be higher ranking players than you in your team, but that's good isn't it?
The last thing I want is a closed shop. It isn't a closed shop. You just say you want to play, and you play, and if I make a decent job of balancing the teams you have as much chance of winning as anyone else, which may not be true in GOTM.
In my experience the best SG players are those that play their turns on time, write a good turnlog, and ask a lot of questions. Your standard of play is completely irrelevent.
You should play Row and live. You'll enjoy it, it won't take up al lot of your time, and you'll come out the other side a better player with half a dozen new friends. At least, that's what happened to me.
You will be neither a fifth wheel or up against elite teams if you join. The formation of elite teams will kill the format IMO and I said so a few posts up. Sure, there may be higher ranking players than you in your team, but that's good isn't it?
The last thing I want is a closed shop. It isn't a closed shop. You just say you want to play, and you play, and if I make a decent job of balancing the teams you have as much chance of winning as anyone else, which may not be true in GOTM.
In my experience the best SG players are those that play their turns on time, write a good turnlog, and ask a lot of questions. Your standard of play is completely irrelevent.
You should play Row and live. You'll enjoy it, it won't take up al lot of your time, and you'll come out the other side a better player with half a dozen new friends. At least, that's what happened to me.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I've been playing SGs since September. I don't consider myself a high level player. (i.e. I'll probably get my butt kicked on the curent Emperor level gotm)
Some folks talk a good game, and some folks really are high level.
But the cool thing about SGs are 1) comradery, 2) you learn different approaches to the various situations, 3) you get handed the game in all sorts of conditions, 4) you learn new strategies and techniques, and finally and most important 5) they're fun.
R&L - I would highly encourage you or anyone else to try an SG. If you don't like it, say so and walk away. I doubt that will happen. I know of several SGs that will be starting soon. Hope to see you there.
RowAndLive
RAMMING SPEED!
I'm not worried about being trounced - I can do that on my own. I just wanted to be sure that things would be balanced, due to the discussion on fixed teams.
The last thing I want is a closed shop. It isn't a closed shop. You just say you want to play, and you play, and if I make a decent job of balancing the teams you have as much chance of winning as anyone else, which may not be true in GOTM.
and you'll come out the other side a better player with half a dozen new friends. At least, that's what happened to me.
That is my goal. I've analyzed the games quite a bit, and can see that I have a lot to learn. Of those such as Sir Pleb, Charis and Moonsinger, I stand in awe, but realize that life calls each of us in a different way. Then again, I still miss the QSC analyses. They were valuable.
MB & Sir Bugsy, thank you for the invitation. I will find a place to count myself in!
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
This is just to say that I have play tested GOTM1. Karasu was spot on with his predicted number of turns to complete. It was difficult to decide whether there was enough in the map to interest a wide range of players, but have decided to go for it.
I think I'll keep the teams to four players in this game, just so everyone gets a go
I think I'll keep the teams to four players in this game, just so everyone gets a go
Peanut
A Slightly Nutty Flavour
RowAndLive, Offa and others thinking about joining an SG - I strongly encourage you to give it a try !
This l'il ol' amateur Peanut played his first SG in the recently finished GOTM24 reprise, with 3 teams competing for glory **. If I can join in and do OK, well then anyone can ! I assure you !
So do it. You will enjoy it much more than a solo game, plus there is lots of scope to learn different tactics as you swap ideas on the forum thread. Everyone is welcome, and the more the merrier. Do it. Enjoy.
** and our team won even with me on board
This l'il ol' amateur Peanut played his first SG in the recently finished GOTM24 reprise, with 3 teams competing for glory **. If I can join in and do OK, well then anyone can ! I assure you !
So do it. You will enjoy it much more than a solo game, plus there is lots of scope to learn different tactics as you swap ideas on the forum thread. Everyone is welcome, and the more the merrier. Do it. Enjoy.
** and our team won even with me on board
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
Here are my tentative proposals in answer to the questions I posted at the top of this thread.
1. How often should games be started?
I think every 6 weeks sounds about right to begin with. Some games will take longer than others of course, and so a little common sense needs to be used. So some games may be delayed a little so that people are not overloaded.
2. Who should pick the teams and how?
My intention here is that people should be able to pick their own teams if they want to, but I will also draw up rosters for all other players. I will rank everybody who has played in a SGOTM and attempt to make the teams equal in terms of average rank. The rankings will be based on previous GOTM performance except where the player has no "record". In these cases I will look at other SG's the player has participated in and try to come to a judgement. When the GOTM Hall of fame is updated this will be considerably easier.
Where players want to form their own team then there will be certain restrictions.
a) teams must be of four players.
b) the combined ranking of all players must be no better than a certain value (to be determined).
c) where it suits the game I may add one or more players to the team. The team will not be able to choose the additional players.
3. Should there be a league table?
I do not intend to start a league table at the moment. Though I may implement it in the future depending on demand and participation levels.
4. Should games be exactly duplicated?
In the main (because it's easier for me), the games will be identical to the original. However, there are some games that have obvious scope to be played in other ways. Therefore, from time to time I will offer a game with some small modifications.
5. Should victory conditions be specified?
The idea that all teams go for the same victory condition is appealing from the point of view of comparison of parallel games. However, I think that placing such restrictions on a game may be detrimental as a whole and may cause teams to lose games they could have won by another victory condition. I think this is artificial. So all victory conditions will be permitted, except in the odd rare game.
SG's lend themselves to variant play. I would like to recognise the difficulty of these variants within SGOTM by providing a scoring bonus for playing them. The three I intend to include are "Always War" (AW), "One City Challenge" (OCC) and "Five City Challenge" (5CC). How the scoring bonuses should be set is problematic... but I'll do my best to provide for them. I am also toying with the idea of providing some (limited) recognition for multi-victory conditions (i.e. being able to win by more than one condition on the same turn). However, I am not intending to include this anytime soon.
6. Which rules should be used?
SGOTM will be played to GOTM rules. However, I think that a small scoring bonus for those that want to play to RBCiv rules should continue. The 10% penalty in the current game is probably a little heavy handed and may be adjusted for the next game.
7. How will the games be chosen?
This is the hardest question to answer. Unfortunatley I am restricted to choosing from games that I have not played, and it is difficult for me to choose the most interesting games. Denyd has posted his thoughts about previous games and this is very helpful to me. Any more feedback along those lines would be greatly appreciated.
Having said that... you will get what you are given!
8. How do we get more people playing?
There are lots of ways... but mainly it boils down to advertising, and wide ranging appeal. There are various ways of doing this, and I'll do as much as I can.
9. Should C3C games be provided?
I am not a fan of C3C games. They have no place in the team competition as they bear no comparison to the original. Also it would be hard work to implement. But laziness and personal prejudice can't stop me giving people what they want.. so if a team is formed that want to play C3C then I will do my best to provide it... Which really means getting the staff to provide it.
10. Who should run it?
I am not the best person for this job by a very long way. Personally I think that the games should be taken over by the staff as soon as is practical. I would like to see Alanh and Karasu take it on albeit in an unofficial capacity for now. Until I can persuade, cajole or bribe them into doing this I will do my best to stumble from game to game. Certainly in the next game I will be asking each team to elect a "leader". This person can then set the roster order of play, make sure the scores are posted, remind everyone who is supposed to play next etc. This would help me enourmously.
That's about it for now. Feedback is invited..... please be nice.
1. How often should games be started?
I think every 6 weeks sounds about right to begin with. Some games will take longer than others of course, and so a little common sense needs to be used. So some games may be delayed a little so that people are not overloaded.
2. Who should pick the teams and how?
My intention here is that people should be able to pick their own teams if they want to, but I will also draw up rosters for all other players. I will rank everybody who has played in a SGOTM and attempt to make the teams equal in terms of average rank. The rankings will be based on previous GOTM performance except where the player has no "record". In these cases I will look at other SG's the player has participated in and try to come to a judgement. When the GOTM Hall of fame is updated this will be considerably easier.
Where players want to form their own team then there will be certain restrictions.
a) teams must be of four players.
b) the combined ranking of all players must be no better than a certain value (to be determined).
c) where it suits the game I may add one or more players to the team. The team will not be able to choose the additional players.
3. Should there be a league table?
I do not intend to start a league table at the moment. Though I may implement it in the future depending on demand and participation levels.
4. Should games be exactly duplicated?
In the main (because it's easier for me), the games will be identical to the original. However, there are some games that have obvious scope to be played in other ways. Therefore, from time to time I will offer a game with some small modifications.
5. Should victory conditions be specified?
The idea that all teams go for the same victory condition is appealing from the point of view of comparison of parallel games. However, I think that placing such restrictions on a game may be detrimental as a whole and may cause teams to lose games they could have won by another victory condition. I think this is artificial. So all victory conditions will be permitted, except in the odd rare game.
SG's lend themselves to variant play. I would like to recognise the difficulty of these variants within SGOTM by providing a scoring bonus for playing them. The three I intend to include are "Always War" (AW), "One City Challenge" (OCC) and "Five City Challenge" (5CC). How the scoring bonuses should be set is problematic... but I'll do my best to provide for them. I am also toying with the idea of providing some (limited) recognition for multi-victory conditions (i.e. being able to win by more than one condition on the same turn). However, I am not intending to include this anytime soon.
6. Which rules should be used?
SGOTM will be played to GOTM rules. However, I think that a small scoring bonus for those that want to play to RBCiv rules should continue. The 10% penalty in the current game is probably a little heavy handed and may be adjusted for the next game.
7. How will the games be chosen?
This is the hardest question to answer. Unfortunatley I am restricted to choosing from games that I have not played, and it is difficult for me to choose the most interesting games. Denyd has posted his thoughts about previous games and this is very helpful to me. Any more feedback along those lines would be greatly appreciated.
Having said that... you will get what you are given!
8. How do we get more people playing?
There are lots of ways... but mainly it boils down to advertising, and wide ranging appeal. There are various ways of doing this, and I'll do as much as I can.
9. Should C3C games be provided?
I am not a fan of C3C games. They have no place in the team competition as they bear no comparison to the original. Also it would be hard work to implement. But laziness and personal prejudice can't stop me giving people what they want.. so if a team is formed that want to play C3C then I will do my best to provide it... Which really means getting the staff to provide it.
10. Who should run it?
I am not the best person for this job by a very long way. Personally I think that the games should be taken over by the staff as soon as is practical. I would like to see Alanh and Karasu take it on albeit in an unofficial capacity for now. Until I can persuade, cajole or bribe them into doing this I will do my best to stumble from game to game. Certainly in the next game I will be asking each team to elect a "leader". This person can then set the roster order of play, make sure the scores are posted, remind everyone who is supposed to play next etc. This would help me enourmously.
That's about it for now. Feedback is invited..... please be nice.
Looks good. 
Thanks also to everyone's comments and enthusiasm -especially to Row for making so clear his worries.
Just to say I agree with all points...
...except #10 I think you can run this thing and are doing it very well. I would be delighted to support it, that's for sure, but let's see how it develops.
And let's get SGOTM1 going! :jump:
Thanks also to everyone's comments and enthusiasm -especially to Row for making so clear his worries.
Just to say I agree with all points...
...except #10
I think you can run this thing and are doing it very well. I would be delighted to support it, that's for sure, but let's see how it develops.And let's get SGOTM1 going! :jump:
- Status
