Gasoline prices pose problems for Obama

[emzie]

I didn't really make an argument. I just said it's dumb for people (and nations for that matter) to build their lives around energy prices staying artificially low until they're finished burning it. Anyone with half a brain can tell that the price of a finite resource will inexorably rise as demand outpaces supply. And no, electric cars are not going to save the day.

Lucy's completely right. I say this as someone driving a 14mpg Jeep, living in a place where gas is more than US$5 / gallon: we need to move on from oil, and if it takes higher fuel taxes, then so be it.

 

[Cutlass]

ANWR, which likely has the greatest supply of oil untapped in one place in the US, by estimate would lower oil prices less than $1/barrel. That's only a couple of cents off the price of gasoline. Other drilling won't affect the price any more than that.

 

[NickyJ]

Apologies, I automatically assumed you were talking about a male because we were talking about people with the ability to be economically productive, intelligent, creative analytical members of society. Again, I am not asking for people to become instant geniuses, I am merely asking them to pull up their bootstraps.

Women don't have the ability to "be economically productive, intelligent, creative analytical members of society"? Anyway, working in nanotechnology and pulling up bootstraps are rather different things.

Sure. What do you think protectionist measures meant to keep jobs and products here in America are?

You mean the measures that I disagree with?

Sure it is. By marketing the idea that people ought to be governed by average, mediocre stupid people, instead of the intellectual and productive elite, you are causers of the civil wars overthrowing enlightened autocrats.

So average Joe's half a world away are the cause of people rebelling against dictators, and thus are the cause of all the countries financial problems? Fascinating...

If the average Joe is going to remain so far away from his job that he is dependant on gas welfare, then it is the average Joe that is repeating the mistakes that put him in his own personal mess.

But they probably don't have enough money to rent. Unless you are suggesting that they go homeless, I doubt that losing everything you have will change their situation.

NickyJ, drilling won't really bring down prices. Exxon will buy the right to drill, and they'll then sell the drilled oil for the proper market price. Alberta's doing very, very well with oil above $100 USD, the middle east stress doesn't hurt us. We just pocket the profit.

Us having higher oil prices as a result of us not drilling for oil doesn't leave us with much profit.

Lucy's completely right. I say this as someone driving a 14mpg Jeep, living in a place where gas is more than US$5 / gallon: we need to move on from oil, and if it takes higher fuel taxes, then so be it.

Not everybody around here is driving a 14MPG Jeep...

 

[JollyRoger]

But they probably don't have enough money to rent. Unless you are suggesting that they go homeless, I doubt that losing everything you have will change their situation.

If you move within walking or public transport distance of your job, then you can sell your car and significantly reduce your transportation costs. Even if rent is higher than a mortgage, the lack of a gas bill should more than make up for it. You can get roommates to help even more with the rent. Perhaps pick up a 2nd or 3rd job now that you don't have a big commute time. Use those damned bootstraps and quit whining for even more government intervention.

 

[NickyJ]

If you move within walking or public transport distance of your job, then you can sell your car and significantly reduce your transportation costs. Even if rent is higher than a mortgage, the lack of a gas bill should more than make up for it. You can get roommates to help even more with the rent. Perhaps pick up a 2nd or 3rd job now that you don't have a big commute time. Use those damned bootstraps and quit whining for even more government intervention.

What about getting groceries? Or any other common transportation needs. With the way people are being laid off, I doubt people are going to be able to get a second or third job. They're having enough trouble keeping one. Again, you can't go out and tell people "Use your boot straps, you loser" then say that the problem is solved. Instead, drill for oil. It would have benefits for the government and the people.

 

[emzie]

Not everybody around here is driving a 14MPG Jeep...

The point is, higher gas taxes hurt me a lot. And I support them, to move our economy away from oil dependence. It's really stupid to base your economy on a commodity that fluctuates in price based on speculation, not on demand.

And it's not as if demand will stop. Tens of millions of new drivers are hitting the roads in China and India. That's a trend not stopping anytime soon. Oil is going to keep going up in price. It's a massive folly to keep using it, or to not look for alternatives.

What about getting groceries? Or any other common transportation needs. With the way people are being laid off, I doubt people are going to be able to get a second or third job. They're having enough trouble keeping one. Again, you can't go out and tell people "Use your boot straps, you loser" then say that the problem is solved. Instead, drill for oil. It would have benefits for the government and the people.

Drilling for oil domestically isn't going to do anything for the price at the pump. Perhaps you could start doing oil shale extraction, and have that impact the market in 10-20 years. It's nasty stuff though.

 

[JollyRoger]

What about getting groceries? Or any other common transportation needs. With the way people are being laid off, I doubt people are going to be able to get a second or third job. They're having enough trouble keeping one. Again, you can't go out and tell people "Use your boot straps, you loser" then say that the problem is solved. Instead, drill for oil. It would have benefits for the government and the people.

Getting groceries can be accomplished without a car, especially if you live close to a store. If it is too big of a deal, several families could share the expenses of a car for grocery issues.

As for jobs, 2nd or 3rd jobs would be at the lower end of the spectrum. Perhaps work at a grocery store so you can carry the day's groceries home from that job.

As for bootstraps and losers, that is just an unfortunate fact of life in this galternate universe.

As for drilling, it won't increase supply due to lack of refining capacity. We are already subsidizing the poor enough on gas issues. At some point you people are going to have take some personal responsibility instead of asking to become even deeper wards of the state.

 

[NickyJ]

The point is, higher gas taxes hurt me a lot. And I support them, to move our economy away from oil dependence. It's really stupid to base your economy on a commodity that fluctuates in price based on speculation, not on demand.

True, but it would be better to have an optional switch rather than have a buy a bankrupt-yourself-on-this car or go-bankrupt-on-gasoline situation.

And it's not as if demand will stop. Tens of millions of new drivers are hitting the roads in China and India. That's a trend not stopping anytime soon. Oil is going to keep going up in price. It's a massive folly to keep using it, or to not look for alternatives.

I'm sure tens of millions are leaving the road around the world.

Getting groceries can be accomplished without a car, especially if you live close to a store. If it is too big of a deal, several families could share the expenses of a car for grocery issues.

And how do they decide who gets to use the car for other purposes, especially when they are at the same time?

As for jobs, 2nd or 3rd jobs would be at the lower end of the spectrum. Perhaps work at a grocery store so you can carry the day's groceries home from that job.

Har har har. And what happens when other people are already employed at the grocery stores?

As for bootstraps and losers, that is just an unfortunate fact of life in this galternate universe.

Funny how liberals will cry about how the homeless people and losers need help, but when it comes to losers and people who have already used their bootstraps, they say "tough luck".

As for drilling, it won't increase supply due to lack of refining capacity. We are already subsidizing the poor enough on gas issues. At some point you people are going to have take some personal responsibility instead of asking to become even deeper wards of the state.

Increase the refining capacity, then. Tada! And again, it's funny how liberals will cry about how the homeless people and losers need help, but when it comes to losers and people who have already used their bootstraps, they say "tough luck".

 

[LucyDuke]

Like I said, it's still $5, and nothing changes that station's price.

I'm done trying to tell you that exceptions are exceptions.

Well, if that's how you want to handle problems, I guess that's how you will do it. To each his own.

That's what it sounds like to me when people refuse to acknowledge that gas prices will go up because oil is finite.

No fighting there, no worries about the supply. No worries about the supply, no more rising prices under the pretenses that there will be no oil tomorrow. Bam. Lower prices.

Do you not understand that the supply is finite?

ANWR, which likely has the greatest supply of oil untapped in one place in the US, by estimate would lower oil prices less than $1/barrel. That's only a couple of cents off the price of gasoline. Other drilling won't affect the price any more than that.

Honestly, I believe we need to drill it anyway. Someone's going to, and I'd rather see the US take it out before China does.

If you can barely afford to get by, it means you're getting by with a bit of wiggle room! So, people should be using that wiggle room to prepare for higher energy prices, because there might come a time when people cannot 'barely' afford to get by. Then they're screwed, and other people will be too stressed to help. (Very happy to see you back. I hope it is for a good reason!)

True. But it hurts. For most people it probably wouldn't take spare cash to take some steps in the right direction, either.

I had to come back 'cause I missed MobBoss.

 

[JollyRoger]

And how do they decide who gets to use the car for other purposes, especially when they are at the same time?

A written contract between the parties. It is amazing how even the most basic of free market solutions seem so elusive to some.

Har har har. And what happens when other people are already employed at the grocery stores?

Most larger population centers have part-time retail-type jobs available. We high income earners need these businesses to employ people to cater to our every need.

Funny how liberals will cry about how the homeless people and losers need help, but when it comes to losers and people who have already used their bootstraps, they say "tough luck".

Is it my fault that you have used your bootstraps to pull yourself into a bad situation? So far, you have rejected every bit of practical advice I have given. You should really learn to listen to those that have played the economic game better than you.

Increase the refining capacity, then. Tada!

Well, we have subsidized the energy companies so that they can do just that, but they have failed to do so without insisting upon even deeper government handouts.

I am really starting to lose patience, since my small law office pays more federal income taxes than several of the large energy outfits combined.

 

[Silurian]

The US uses about 25% of the world’s oil but has less than 5% of the population.

If the US reduced its use of oil the price would fall.

69% of the US population live in urban areas with a population greater than 50000 so should be able to use public transport for many of their journeys.



So NickyJ has a moderate commute to work and lives outside the city where he works.

So apart from selling up and moving to the city to cut his gas usage he could.

for work

1-Car share to work for the whole journey or part of the journey.
2-Drive car to public transport stop on edge of city (city driving uses more fuel)
3-Rent a room in the city for one or two nights a week
4-Work four days a week instead of five but more hours per day - this would go well with 3
5-Work different hours to avoid the high traffic times when more fuel is used.
6-Work from home one day a week (if job allows)
7-Drive to city then cycle


and for other journeys

1-Car share for groceries (as suggested by JollyRoger)
2-By the groceries on the commute home
3-Buy groceries on line and get them delivered.
4-Plan your journeys so you do two or more journeys at the same time

I’m sure this list could be greatly expanded with something’s that are suitable for one person and others suitable for another.

 

[JollyRoger]

Silurian, your solutions are not acceptable for the self-reliant folks who see that government-subsidized drilling would save them from such atrocities.

 

[Cutlass]

Honestly, I believe we need to drill it anyway. Someone's going to, and I'd rather see the US take it out before China does.

We are. production is up, despite the Gulf being held up. Improvements in drilling tech have opened up fields that could not be exploited with earlier technology. We are drilling everywhere it makes sense to do so, that the environmental risks and costs aren't too high.

But we just can't drill enough have a notable effect on the price. Not with current use trends. Both here and worldwide.

 

[JollyRoger]

Why not instead of driving government officials around, we hire otherwise non-contributors to carry our politicans around like back in the good ole days? Decreases energy use and provides deadbeats a job (though we could keep them in FEMA camps and feed them gruel rather than compensate them with cash).

 

[LucyDuke]

I agree about the prices, Cutlass. I'm just saying that even though it won't help with any of the actual problems, it's got to happen anyway.

 

[Arakhor]

Funny how liberals will cry about how the homeless people and losers need help, but when it comes to losers and people who have already used their bootstraps, they say "tough luck".

I believe it's what's known as a comparison with when you've enthusiastically joined in on "debates" where "liberals" are told to use their bootstraps, yet here you are in need yourself. It's not pleasurable to see anybody in need, but it does have a certain amount of irony.

 

[Zelig]

What about getting groceries? Or any other common transportation needs. With the way people are being laid off, I doubt people are going to be able to get a second or third job. They're having enough trouble keeping one. Again, you can't go out and tell people "Use your boot straps, you loser" then say that the problem is solved. Instead, drill for oil. It would have benefits for the government and the people.

I live in a larger country than the US, with about a tenth of the population, and I do just fine living in walking distance of my jobs, without a car.

Honestly, I believe we need to drill it anyway. Someone's going to, and I'd rather see the US take it out before China does.

Yeah, but it's going to be worth more if you wait.

 

[JollyRoger]

Honestly, I believe we need to drill

Is that why you are staring at my big clock?

 

[Cutlass]

I agree about the prices, Cutlass. I'm just saying that even though it won't help with any of the actual problems, it's got to happen anyway.

And it is. Everything that it makes sense to drill is being drilled. There just isn't any significant expansion of drilling that makes sense. More offshore, particularly the deep water, where there is still some oil, isn't safe. Not until procedures are changed. ANWR, can't be drilled without major risk of environmental damage. Offshore East Coast and California is high risk of property damage of an economic cost that exceeds the value of oil that might be there. What the Republicans want to do is strip away the environmental issues and property issues and drill with all the risks assumed by the potential victims rather than the oil companies.

 

[NickyJ]

I'm done trying to tell you that exceptions are exceptions.

It isn't an exception. I just don't see how gasoline costing $5 at a gas station makes that station no longer serviceable. Oh well, not my problem.

That's what it sounds like to me when people refuse to acknowledge that gas prices will go up because oil is finite.

Well, I am thankful to know that I am not the one refusing to acknowledge it. Thanks for the confirmation.

Do you not understand that the supply is finite?

It's finite, but it's not just going to disappear tomorrow, so why should we bankrupt ourselves over it?

Honestly, I believe we need to drill it anyway. Someone's going to, and I'd rather see the US take it out before China does.

And that is my thinking. "Use it, or lose it." Let's just say that I don't feel like losing it.

A written contract between the parties. It is amazing how even the most basic of free market solutions seem so elusive to some.

I have a feeling that written contracts aren't going to be used on a car.

Most larger population centers have part-time retail-type jobs available. We high income earners need these businesses to employ people to cater to our every need.

Again, what happens when other people are already took the part-time retail-type positions?

Is it my fault that you have used your bootstraps to pull yourself into a bad situation? So far, you have rejected every bit of practical advice I have given. You should really learn to listen to those that have played the economic game better than you.

Exactly! Now if only you would feel the same way about the government! This is our whole point! This is why we hate nanny states! I think you might actually have hope, in the political belief section.

Well, we have subsidized the energy companies so that they can do just that, but they have failed to do so without insisting upon even deeper government handouts.

Here's an idea (I really don't know how well it would work, this is just an alpha stage idea): The government builds the oil refinery, then sells it to the oil company.

I live in a larger country than the US, with about a tenth of the population, and I do just fine living in walking distance of my jobs, without a car.

Did you have to walk 11 kilometers to work, or to get groceries?