[GS] Gathering Storm General Discussion Thread

[local_hero]

It is undisputed fact that she is judged as a traitor. We're not discussing degree here. Picking a traitor in any case to lead a civilization is a very poor choice and I cannot understand why they would ever make such a decision.

I get a sense you neither want to elaborate or discuss why she's as bad as Quisling, but maybe it is because it's an absurd comparison. A nazi collaborator whose name is synonymous with being a traitor and can be used in every day speech instead of using "traitor".

Mentioning Kristina isn't even remotely comparable and she's not instantly recognised for being a traitor by Swedes in general (or at all by most). So I'd say that your claim that it is an undisputed fact that she is judged as a traitor is completely wrong. The view on her today is much more nuanced, acknowledging what she made during her rule as well as trying to understand her motives to abdicate. She probably never wanted to rule at all and it was impossible for her to remain queen if she'd converted to catholicism. Her decision to abdicate didn't throw Sweden into a political turmoil or civil war as the whole process was meticulously prepared.

 

[anandus]

I actually think classical era is a good idea, historically.
I wonder about canals in that regard as well - will they be late game (industrial and onwards) only?

Canals have been around for very long (eg China's Grand Canal was started in 5th century BCE, Romans were building canals from 2nd century BCE), so I expect them to be available quite early.

 

[Bechhold]

I just want a HUGE Earth, & RSL Earth Map.

 

[Siptah]

Canals have been around for very long (eg China's Grand Canal was started in 5th century BCE, Romans were building canals from 2nd century BCE), so I expect them to be available quite early.

Yes, I'm aware of that. But I guess that we'll need military engineers to construct canals, which unlock somewhere in the medieval era iirc (never use them and this requirement would lead to them being actually useful), so I doubt that they are available before that. The look of the newly founded city with the dock in the live stream (Leeds?) suggests that canals can look different than modern ones though.

 

[anandus]

Yes, I'm aware of that. But I guess that we'll need military engineers to construct canals, which unlock somewhere in the medieval era iirc (never use them and this requirement would lead to them being actually useful), so I doubt that they are available before that. The look of the city with the dock suggests that canals can look different than modern ones though.

If canals are districts no engineers are necessary.

 

[Siptah]

If canals are districts no engineers are necessary.

Did they say that canals are districts? I remember that they said that dams are districts, but I can't remember canals. Also, since they are potentially multi-tile infrastructure, I guess a single district won't be enough.

 

[Giskler]

Did they say that canals are districts? I remember that they said that dams are districts, but I can't remember canals. Also, since they are potentially multi-tile infrastructure, I guess a single district won't be enough.

Canals are districts which you can use to chain canals between cities, up to 7 tiles if you include the Panama Canal wonder.

 

[anandus]

Did they say that canals are districts? I remember that they said that dams are districts, but I can't remember canals. Also, since they are potentially multi-tile infrastructure, I guess a single district won't be enough.

I believe there was an achievement if you build a 7-tiles canal "using cities, districts and the Panama Canal wonder", but I'm not certain.
It would make the panama canal a three tile wonder, I guess?

 

[acluewithout]

I'm sure everyone would be sorry to see you go. I wonder whether the military engineer being emphasised for England suggest they are going to play a bigger role. Perhaps some of the new improvements - tunnels, dams, canals, even railroads - will be dependent on military engineers rather than workers. If so, an 80% discount would be pretty useful.

It really is a complete rework for England. Pax B is dead. Long live Pax B.

What I mean is that they’ve obviously decided for whatever reason that original Pax B doesn’t fit. I’m not sure why, but I think at this point they did really need to just start again. I’m okay with the new direction.

I’m actually surprised they kept the free Melee unit all. Honestly, I think they would have been better just ditching it in favour of something connected to Governors on Foreign Continents.

But. That all said. A happy as I am. It is a real open question whether with these changes England will be competitive at Naval Stuff. If the existing +1 movement bug for ships remain (ie you lose it when you upgrade your ships), then I think England will not be great at Naval stuff. That said, the bonus to coal means they may produce Ironclads faster, England might be able to stack Shipyards with their new production bonuses to have high production coastal cities, they may still get an extra great admiral point from Harbours, and free ships are still free ships. So? Yeah, don’t know. Let’s see.

I think the Sea Dog should still have got the chop. It didn’t synergise well before (captured ships don’t get +1 movement from RNDs), and it really doesn’t synergies now Pax B doesn’t also give free units on capture and you get free ships when you build RNDs.

I’m really not sure how I feel about free ships. Just, dunno, not needed really.

Hmm. Well. Free trade routes will be fun and gives you more reward for expanding. ME might be fun - depends on what they do now. The RND is still fun. British Museum is not a big loss - it just means England is a general economy gold production Civ instead of being a Culture Civ.

I could certainly understand frustration with the current changes. It hasn’t been handled well overall. But. All in all. I think it’s okay. Like I’ve said elsewhere, if anything I think they could just lose the various free units (maybe fix a few bugs) and they’d be good to go.

 

[local_hero]

Being the foremost Protestant power during the turmoil of the Thirty Years' War isn't enough?


Yes, I can't think of anything interesting about a guy called "the Lion of the North."


Fair, but I feel like Sweden's chief historical significance is its brief reign as Protestant superpower in the 16th and 17th centuries. Seems a shame not to capitalize on that. Otherwise I would have preferred Austria, which also has the benefit of having a much better female ruler to go with.

I did not mean to claim that he didn't have any merit, but the Swedish Empire rose and crumbled within roughly 100 years. Being known as "the Lion of the North" is indeed cool but I think it had more to do with his military prowess and something actively used as propaganda during the time. So I think Kristina fits better with how Firaxis thinks of interesting personalities. But this is all hypothetical yet...

 

[Giskler]

Kristina is not comparable to Quisling in any way. Having Quisling as a leader would be like having Hitler as the leader for Germany.

 

[drubell]

One mechanic they are addressing is chopping down all your forest and rainforest which we already know is a huge exploit.

It's hard for me to believe that chopping is an "exploit" when the most recent expansion added a governor that explicitly encourages chopping. And if chopping still heavily benefits my early game to the point that it will massively boost my empire, then adding a couple disasters that slightly delays my progress isn't going to stop me.

So is that it? The reason Firaxis wants to add random events is because of chopping? I'm not convinced.

R&F loyalty stopped two things they didn't like that was highly problematic with the game, and those were ICS mechanics and ez steamrolling of cities with no system to push conquests back. That's fine, that was needed.

GS still just sounds like adding bells and whistles to a game that still has serious problems at its basic level.

I'll wait and see how the new diplo system will work and how the other VCs will change (as they said many will change) but at this point I have no interest in paying for this. I'm still regretting buying R&F. Maybe the new Cultural Victory will actually be properly defined in the game!

 

[Leyrann]

just saw the trailer for the first time and read about the news. i think i'll pass on this one.
some of the new stuff sounds good, but a weather system is kinda silly in a game where each turn is at least 1 year (or up to 20 years or something in the early game).

It's not a weather system, it's a climate system. A very, very important difference that a lot of people (in the real world I mean) don't seem to get...

the future era is a no-go for me. if they want the game to have the message that climate change is dangerous, they should NOT water it down by presenting some magic future tech solutions to the problem.

Except... they don't? They never said you can solve climate change with the future techs.

 

[Mr Jon of Cheam]

I revisited the gameplay video and rewatched the whole thing and I think that was wishful hearing on your Side.
And I'm with you, as I said; hyped as well. But not without fear for a somewhat competent AI.

He literally says 'obviously with expansion work comes a lot of base work, so we're always doing tweaks, improvements, AI improvements...'

This is around 42.05-42.15 in the YT video.

 

[anandus]

He literally says 'obviously with expansion work comes a lot of base work, so we're always doing tweaks, improvements, AI improvements...'

This is around 42.05-42.15 in the YT video.

Not only that, but it's in reaction to a deluge in the chat asking about the AI.
Have a look at the twitch stream and you'll see.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Why are you assuming there will even be a 3rd expansion? I think a 3rd expansion is highly unlikely. Historically, Firaxis has only done 2 expansions per civ. Plus, Firaxis likes to do really big expansions and I don't think there is enough left to fill a 3rd big expansion. At this point, there could be smaller DLCs but I doubt that Firaxis is planning another major 3rd expansion. Any big ideas that are left would probably be kept in reserve for civ7 at this point.

They also didn't have leader DLC before V. It's unlikely but possible that they change their model and go the Paradox route. Keep making DLC and add to the game instead of making sequels.
Corporations and ideologies are the only old features that are still missing and with the World Congress and resource rework they would fit nicely into the game.

 

[AriochIV]

If both the leak and my speculation are true, it's more likely that it's going to be both Ottomans and Byzantines with Hungary left out, but it's highly speculative at this point.

...except the leak says both Ottomans and Hungary are in.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Hmm, I don't really mind the AI right now? lol. Maybe it's because I tend to run loads of mods (including those that give CSs WALLS on turn one), but whatever. I like inept AI's because it allows me to build up my empire in peace and quiet until I'm ready to stomp everyone with tanks and artillery in the modern era.

The thing that ruins my experience in the game the most are 1) awful starts due to crappy map generation (which ranges from starting in full coastal flat tundra to starting with 2 rival capitals within 10 tiles of mine), 2) the ridiculously aggressive barbs you get in isolated starts and 3) bland gameplay throughout pretty much the entire game. Civ6 is a game that is flawed by design and I'm all for tweaks that fix the game balance and player experience, much moreso than the AI. But perhaps that's just me.

 

[KnightModern]

It's hard for me to believe that chopping is an "exploit" when the most recent expansion added a governor that explicitly encourages chopping

they changed it

 

[anandus]

In the realm of speculation: Will the Three Gorges Dam be making a comeback?
Maybe only buildable on a river fork.