Gator02 - Learning to Walk
- Thread starter DJMGator13
- Start date
lurker's comment: Good stuff. I'm learning quite a bit since I've been in 2 SG's where we were alone on a continent. One winner and one loser. This will bring a lot of clarity to that type of game.
bradleyfeanor
King
leif erikson said:
It was, if only for my sake.
Thanks for doing that. With any GP luck it will pay off big time. Those barbs are getting a bit uppity, but nice job of keeping them at bay!Bexhukov said:
Ya mon. Although you will also need to decide whether to build another settler (to found Fish Fry) after a worker or jump straight into the library chop. I think either is a good option. Once the library is built though, I think it is very important that we start running two scientists immediately and work the corn and both hamlets. We don't want to mess around too much and miss the Oracle.
I finished a comparison between your alternate start and our current game. I found it very interesting, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you all think. If you spot any errors, let me know and I will fix them. I included a lot of info: some of which is probably of value, and some which isn't: but I wanted to be thorough. The totals are listed at the bottom.
Code:
[B]Start Comparison at 2400 bc[/B]
Bez Start Current Game
Number of Cities 2 1
Total Population 5 5
[B]Buildings[/B]
Barracks 1 0
[B]Units[/B]
Scouts 1 0
Vet. Quechua 1 0
Reg. Quechua 5 6
Workers 2 1
[B]Worker Improvements/chops[/B]
mines 1 1
farms 1 1
roads 1 1
cottages 0 0
hamlets 0 2
forests chopped 6 0
forest hammers
consumed 180 0
forest hammers
received 175 0
[B]Techs[/B] Mining Mining
BW BW
TW TW
Hunting Pottery
AH du in 4 AH
Writing due in 6
[B]Current Empire production[/B]
Food per Turn 8 5
Hammers per Turn 8 7
Gold per Turn 0 0
Beakers per Turn 11 19
Expenses per Turn 1 0
Net Beakers/Gold 10 19
[B]Totals to date[/B]
Food generated 72* 105
Hammers generated/
chopped 405* 163
Total food/hammers
combined 477 268
Total food/hammers
without chops 302 268
Beakers generated 494 622
Total food/hammers/
beakers combined 971 890
Total food/hammers/
beakers combined
without chops 796 890*All settler and worker production was counted as hammers for Bezukov's game because the actual amount that was food could not be distinguished from hammers. The actual total of food was a bit higher, and the hammers lower by an equivalent amount.
Edit: Incorporated Beznukov's corrections listed in post #144.
I wasted a good many resources on the detour to hunting before wheel in order to pop the villages with a scout (in my game, we still have a scout in play - not in your accounting - with which to pop further huts - I liked your suggestion of hunting to cut down on the AH cost), and got quite unlucky there not to get a tech or two - then again, I cheated a little since I knew we were alone. Probably would have popped at least one of the huts with a quecha before realizing this and saving them.
I also made sure to do most cutting outside the capital's fat cross (only one chop was from a workable tile at the captial, another at the second city), which yielded slightly less than 30 per chop.
You have accounted for the nearly completed worker (third) at the second city, correct? Are you sure I researched pottery? Probably wasted worker moves/hammers/significant commerce by going outside the fat cross west to chop instead of cottaging the FP.
I also made sure to do most cutting outside the capital's fat cross (only one chop was from a workable tile at the captial, another at the second city), which yielded slightly less than 30 per chop.
You have accounted for the nearly completed worker (third) at the second city, correct? Are you sure I researched pottery? Probably wasted worker moves/hammers/significant commerce by going outside the fat cross west to chop instead of cottaging the FP.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
If Bez had bypassed Hunting for AH, as we did, how far along Writing would he be?
So we're in a stronger research position and have saved more of the chops that can go a long way towards completing some of the Wonders which are about to be available. There doesn't appear to be much difference militarily, except for the completion of the barracks. But the extra worker is nice.
I'd be interested to see how the next 20 turns compare to each other. Does Bez's earlier 2nd city start to overcome our faster commerce start during this time?
So we're in a stronger research position and have saved more of the chops that can go a long way towards completing some of the Wonders which are about to be available. There doesn't appear to be much difference militarily, except for the completion of the barracks. But the extra worker is nice.
I'd be interested to see how the next 20 turns compare to each other. Does Bez's earlier 2nd city start to overcome our faster commerce start during this time?
No, I doubt my start would recover the commerce gap until turn 150-200, if then, especially since Brad has a better shot at the Oracle. I'm a little more sanguine about early tech dominance in favor of strategic flexibility, so I'd have likely pressed expansion up to the fourth city point. As each city hits max pop, though, I'd use my heavier investment in workers to make sure there were cottages on hand to switch to a commerce/production tile configuration from production/growth.
As for the Oracle, I would likely have gone for early Alpha/Drama/Lit before even researching Priesthood had I been playing without Brad. If we are entirely alone, that approach could have its own difficulties, as it relies on trading for techs like math/metal/currency.
In general, I like to run my scientist specialists outside the capital, using the capital's spare food to work high production tiles or build settlers/workers, so I'll be curious to see how it plays out in this game doing otherwise.
As for the Oracle, I would likely have gone for early Alpha/Drama/Lit before even researching Priesthood had I been playing without Brad. If we are entirely alone, that approach could have its own difficulties, as it relies on trading for techs like math/metal/currency.
In general, I like to run my scientist specialists outside the capital, using the capital's spare food to work high production tiles or build settlers/workers, so I'll be curious to see how it plays out in this game doing otherwise.
Interesting analysis, indeed. It got me thinking about using chops to jump start you civ versus holding some for later needs and the trade-off that represents. I love forest chops and often use them to help time things later, especially Libraries, Courthouses and some wonder builds. This makes me think I should use them more in the early game but then makes me wonder what the cost will be for later? 
I was playing a test game for GOTM the other day and got a real lesson in what we're playing with here. The fat cross of the capital had within it (on a random start by the way), a gold hill, a gems resource, a corn grassland on a river and a pig resource on plains. In developing this, I researched agriculture and then mining and built a farm on the corn and then a mine on the gold. I was amazed at how fast research kicked in and, of course, got quite a jump on production as well. That was an obvious, and lucky start. But it showed me the necessity of getting my income up to fuel research as well as the need to get production up and running. Being fortunate enough to have both of these things working highlighted, for me, how they work when not in competition with each other.
With regard to the comparison, I think it is interesting at how close they are. The same pop level, roughly the same military. Bez ahead in improvements and workers but less in GPT production. Thanks for a very worthwhile exercise. I do agree with Gator in that it would be interesting to see what the effects of these choices will be 20 to 40 turns down the road.
I was playing a test game for GOTM the other day and got a real lesson in what we're playing with here. The fat cross of the capital had within it (on a random start by the way), a gold hill, a gems resource, a corn grassland on a river and a pig resource on plains. In developing this, I researched agriculture and then mining and built a farm on the corn and then a mine on the gold. I was amazed at how fast research kicked in and, of course, got quite a jump on production as well. That was an obvious, and lucky start. But it showed me the necessity of getting my income up to fuel research as well as the need to get production up and running. Being fortunate enough to have both of these things working highlighted, for me, how they work when not in competition with each other.
With regard to the comparison, I think it is interesting at how close they are. The same pop level, roughly the same military. Bez ahead in improvements and workers but less in GPT production. Thanks for a very worthwhile exercise. I do agree with Gator in that it would be interesting to see what the effects of these choices will be 20 to 40 turns down the road.
We could always continue to play parallel games and compare notes every so often. The pertinent difference to me between the two is the second city already settled, as well as the 2 workers and third soon to arrive, and scout!, vs. double the beakers and the forests reserved of the other, the beakers being more important than the forests I think, since forest chops are far more valuable early than later, where you can get equivalent hammers in a few turns of production.
Were we creative, the faster settling would matter more.
Were we creative, the faster settling would matter more.
bradleyfeanor
King
Bezhukov said:
Yes I forgot him. He has been added now, along with the appropriate 15 hammer adjustments.
Bezhukov said:
I have now tracked them down and compared them with the Normal-Difficulty Chop Value Chart. You got full 30 hammers for all but one of them, for which you received 25. I made the appropriate 5 hammer adjustments.
Bezhukov said:
I did get him and his value was included in the hammer totals, as well as your 5 hammer overflow in the capitol.
I accidentally had that in the list and have removed it now. The beaker value I had correct (no Pottery), so that didn't change.Bezhukov said:
Thanks again for doing this,
I think this may be one of the more valuable learning opportunities we get in this entire game, and that goes double for those who have only played a few cIV games. I'm going to hold off on my 2-cents, because I would like for the rest of our team to give their thoughts on the two starts, and maybe a few lurkers could chime in as well. 
Edit due to crosspost:
Bezhukov said:
That would be awsome! But I won't be doing the detailed analysis everytime: I like to have time to play too!
bradleyfeanor
King
Bezhukov said:Given the food-richness of this start, I'd be reluctant to draw too many conclusions though.Many other starts need workers and food techs to be given first priority to avoid stumbling out of the gate.
Agreed. I would say the conclusions we draw will only directly apply to games at Monarch difficulty in which you start with an AH enabled food bonus, an Agriculture enabled food bonus, exactly one plain/hill, no grass hills, 1 FP, a long river, a wine tile on that river, and are playing as Huayna with no rivals on your tiny island.
I think we can do some extrapolation via a start comparison though, which will be of value when playing other types of games, perhaps at differing difficulty levels or with different civs and starting terrain. For instance, when I looked at your start, I immediately thought "Emperor level difficulty or higher."
Gaspar~
Warlord
I just want to say how much I'm enjoying the comparisons in this thread. Almost all strategy posited on these forums relates to a higher order of strategy, so its nice to see some chat about nuts and bolts. I will say that this sort of score-max gaming gets a little tiresome to me, which is of course why I'm just a Prince-playing scrub, but I do find reading about it fascinating.
The particularly odd thing is I'm more likely to play the way Brad has advocated in the early game (particularly a fan of the slingshot if at all possible, CS is so huge if you get it early when your capital is already the main driving force of your empire), as I'm a firm subscriber to Tech Uber Alles, but I think I probably play a bit more like Bez in the later game (I have never made a grenadier rush in my CIV career )
I'll be quite interested to see how this plays out.
The particularly odd thing is I'm more likely to play the way Brad has advocated in the early game (particularly a fan of the slingshot if at all possible, CS is so huge if you get it early when your capital is already the main driving force of your empire), as I'm a firm subscriber to Tech Uber Alles, but I think I probably play a bit more like Bez in the later game (I have never made a grenadier rush in my CIV career
)I'll be quite interested to see how this plays out.
Turn report:
First turn: Macchu Picchu founded, chop will go toward worker.
Fourth turn (1800): MP:worker->granary, Cuzco:library->quecha
1760: Priesthood->fishing, Cuzco:quecha->settler (takes back pig), Oracle build commences
1680: Fishing->masonry
IT: quecha on hill defends succesfully against barb archer near Cuzco.
City road network completed, chop in progress for Oracle (will complete post Masonry to get marble bonus), road under construction on corn (on way to horses in our borders), farm under construction at Macchu Pichu flood plain to facilitate whips.
Yes, tech should have gone masonry->fishing (fishing only took about 1.25 turns).
First turn: Macchu Picchu founded, chop will go toward worker.
Fourth turn (1800): MP:worker->granary, Cuzco:library->quecha
1760: Priesthood->fishing, Cuzco:quecha->settler (takes back pig), Oracle build commences
1680: Fishing->masonry
IT: quecha on hill defends succesfully against barb archer near Cuzco.
City road network completed, chop in progress for Oracle (will complete post Masonry to get marble bonus), road under construction on corn (on way to horses in our borders), farm under construction at Macchu Pichu flood plain to facilitate whips.
Yes, tech should have gone masonry->fishing (fishing only took about 1.25 turns).
bradleyfeanor
King
Nice turns, Bezhukov.
We are definitely later in getting to the Oracle than I had anticipated, guys. I hope we don't miss it!
A couple of questions:
Why the granary in Machu? When the settler is done in the capitol in 2 turns, Machu will be able to work the pig and the FP that you are irrigating for at least 17 turns. That will grow it to its happiness limit and beyond very quickly, even while working a mine. Am I missing part of the plan for the city?
Why fishing before CoL? I can't figure out how we can utilize it until after we have CoL and the Oracle is built, at which point it would have been much safer to research (ie, wouldn't have delayed Oracle).
One critique:
I think it would have been better to work the grassland tile in our Oracle city instead of the plain/forest tile. In that way, we could have grown to size 2 twice as fast, and worked 2 plain/forest tiles after getting marble. That would have given the city 8 hammers per turn (due to marble), rather than the 2 hammers per turn that it has been making.
We are definitely later in getting to the Oracle than I had anticipated, guys. I hope we don't miss it!
A couple of questions:
Why the granary in Machu? When the settler is done in the capitol in 2 turns, Machu will be able to work the pig and the FP that you are irrigating for at least 17 turns. That will grow it to its happiness limit and beyond very quickly, even while working a mine. Am I missing part of the plan for the city?
Why fishing before CoL? I can't figure out how we can utilize it until after we have CoL and the Oracle is built, at which point it would have been much safer to research (ie, wouldn't have delayed Oracle).
One critique:
I think it would have been better to work the grassland tile in our Oracle city instead of the plain/forest tile. In that way, we could have grown to size 2 twice as fast, and worked 2 plain/forest tiles after getting marble. That would have given the city 8 hammers per turn (due to marble), rather than the 2 hammers per turn that it has been making.
DJMGator13
Still breathing
brad said:
Good, because you're up.
Roster
bradleyfeanor - filling up the wine glass and getting ready to play
Gator - On deck, playing his SGOTM09 turns before he gets this game
Bede - dreaming of pork sandwiches
Bezhukov - just played (switch with leif)
leif - (switched with Bez)
You may need a little extra of our quality "cottage wine" to pull off that slingshot . Good luck!!DJMGator13 said:
Correct on all counts - I figured it out while writing up the report. I was thinking the restraint was hammers, so was concentrating on getting the marble hooked up, masonry researched, and forest productivity in the bin.
The granary is to allow Macchu to quickly regain pop after whipping, which it should be able to do decently with two flood plains and the pig (when Cuzco isn't using it to grow), at least to get basic infra finished. It won't have more than three quality tiles to work for a little while anyway. Unhappiness can wear off while it grows out, or it can just work farmed flood plain and two scientists at three pop once we whip a library.
Fishing was
, but only burned 1.25 turns or so. Hope that's not what costs us the Oracle. I wanted to have it to get a scoutboat out soon. As I said, its not something I usually fool with, so my Oracle-maxing skills are not the best.
One last second guess: I think the best opening of all would have been settling the capital on the wine and using the extra commerce from the city square (3) to nab Buddhism. Cuzco would have had a nice mix of tiles - two plains hills, horse, and still both food bonus. Not having a religion with this start will be quite a handicap. (He says who delayed CoL research
)
The granary is to allow Macchu to quickly regain pop after whipping, which it should be able to do decently with two flood plains and the pig (when Cuzco isn't using it to grow), at least to get basic infra finished. It won't have more than three quality tiles to work for a little while anyway. Unhappiness can wear off while it grows out, or it can just work farmed flood plain and two scientists at three pop once we whip a library.
Fishing was
, but only burned 1.25 turns or so. Hope that's not what costs us the Oracle. I wanted to have it to get a scoutboat out soon. As I said, its not something I usually fool with, so my Oracle-maxing skills are not the best. One last second guess: I think the best opening of all would have been settling the capital on the wine and using the extra commerce from the city square (3) to nab Buddhism. Cuzco would have had a nice mix of tiles - two plains hills, horse, and still both food bonus. Not having a religion with this start will be quite a handicap. (He says who delayed CoL research
)
bradleyfeanor
King
Bezhukov said:
I don't understand.
The granary is due in around 14 turns (if we complete the plain/hill mine). The city will grow to size 4 (the happy limit) in 9 turns. If I use the whip at that point, my happiness limit drops to 3 for 10 turns, so I wouldn't need to grow back to size 4 until then. Without a granary, the city would climb back to size 4 in 4 turns, so I don't see how we get the benefit out of the granary. I don't use slavery that often, so am I missing the benefit-boat here?
If I am then I will definitely leave the granary. If not, I would love to get a barracks going so we won't have to build any more regular military units this game.
Bezhukov said:
If we miss the Oracle by one turn then the blame will go to me. I delayed us by a turn when I asked Leif to get Poly instead of Med.
But if we miss it by two then I'm blaming you. Bezhukov said:I think the best opening of all would have been settling the capital on the wine and using the extra commerce from the city square (3) to nab Buddhism. Cuzco would have had a nice mix of tiles - two plains hills, horse, and still both food bonus. Not having a religion with this start will be quite a handicap. (He says who delayed CoL research
Arghh! How did we miss that? That is indeed the best start. How did an enophile like me miss an opportunity to live in a vinyard with Buddha and a pet pig. Heaven it would have been.
Well, my wine glass is now full. Bottle next to me. Many spares in the cellar if called upon. I'm ready to play as soon as I get word on the granary thing!
bradleyfeanor
King
Well I couldn't wait to take my turns, so I went. And I'll be buggered: the AI got the Oracle by two turns. Anyone know where Bezhukov lives?
