Gaza Beach Shelling

"Modern civilization has become too civilized for it's own good, it has forgotten how to fight a war. The peace of the dead is the only way this will end. The Israeli's have the means, but not the stomach for it. The Palestinians have the stomach, but not the means. I wonder how many more generations are going to have this festering mess inflicted on them."

So sayeth the wise suburbanite!

No one complain when suicide bombers accidentally kill families either! What are they gonna do? Just stand by and let you shell them!? Everybody loses.
 
And just as the Palestinians where starting to accelerate the fighting between themselves, I would have thought the last thing Israel would have wanted to do is give them something to unite for.

Another massacre, add it to the list.

Who are the terrorists again?

And you wonder why people blow themselves up attacking you, isn't it obvious?
 
Sh3kel said:
Morality dictates we shouldn't fire back and turn the other cheek. Most christians who held that belief were fed to the lions - not a viable option, you agree I'm sure.
I'm taking the pragmatic route because it's pretty hard to act moral when you're dead.


Because I happen to hate being on the recieving end of a wrong accusation. The gunner may have fired the shell, but the orders came from the Divisional command and this is hardly a case of bloodlust - this is of course a very unfortunate and saddening incident. I'm not going to stand here and tell you they had it coming because they didn't - there's no defending this kind of thing. The principle behind it however does hold some water.


Tens of thousands? There's a flat out lie if I ever saw one... There haven't been any more than 7,000 deaths in the entire conflict over the span of the last decade!

I wish to see your sources for this number. The present figures I know of speak of a 66% combatant to non combatant ratio for Palestinians killed and a 70% non-combatant to combatant ratio for Israelis killed...



We're soldiers. The only orders we don't do are those which call for us to kill the obivously innocent or the inhuman - and being damn fine soldiers too we don't question the orders when they're legitimate. If my commanding officer asks me to mark a house and tells me there's a terrorist cell in the basement, I'll flag it and pass down the intel to the guys in the field who either lift a chopper to the air to Hellfire it into the afterworld, or break into the house and capture him if he's worth the bust. If a ship captain has reason to believe he's seeing a launch site and intel from battalion confirms, the gunner has no reason not to fire a shell at the target.
As stated previously - we're the military. We're there to blow things up, and as politically incorrect as it may sound, our job is to end lives. It's up to command to decide how we get the job done and up to the political branch to decide which jobs they pass on to command. The guy in the line just does as he's told.


Inanimate objects do not respond properly to negotations. I'd rather negotiate with the Palestinians.



Let's try this again, only with links and evidence this time.
In your home country of Britain there is a law called "Adverse Possession for Squatters", which falls under the jurisdiction of property law.


The "new scheme" talked about means you no longer get to own land immediately after 12 years - you have to prove one of three conditions:

Via sections (a) and (b), Israel is more than legally entitled to hold the land it has had in its possession for over 58 years, even if your were to consider the Palestinians to be the rightful owners.
Legally speaking, even in your own country, kicking someone out from your property after you've neglected it for over a decade because suddenly the squatters made it heaven is illegal and the squatter generally has the law on his side.

Even assuming you're right (which I firmly belive you're not) and we're here illegaly (and we're not), we've been here for more than long enough to fulfill the conditions of the squatter's law. We own the place by possessions.


Who are you trying to convince yourself or me? I'm sorry but those laws of my land do not apply to war time situations and they do not excuse breach of treaty, again, you can make a case but to me it sounds like bending laws that aren't apropriate to breaking point. If you want to convince yourself, fine mission achieved, if you want to convince the rest of the world, very much mission denied, from reading the history this is a case of inavsion in clear breach of treaty, an act in fact decried by the Israeli people, now that the dust of that action has settled, you claim it is a legal act under the terms of your treaty and that you can justify it with a single countries law(no matter how inapropriate that is) The UN has suggested you give over land taken for peace.

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1378577

Here's a nice link from the Economist, that explains the situation pretty well I thought.

This is where Israel has put itself squarely on the wrong side of the Security Council. Since 1967, the UN has rejected all Israel's attempts to change the legal and demographic status of the captured territories, by annexing Jerusalem, applying Israeli law to the Golan Heights and planting Jewish settlements in the West Bank and Gaza (see article). How can vigorous attempts to colonise the occupied territories be reconciled with Israel's claim to accept 242 and the principle of land for peace that underlies it?

They can't. The plain fact is that Israel, citing history ancient and modern (Jerusalem has had a Jewish majority since the 19th century), decided after conquering its Jordanian half in 1967 to make the city its eternal “unified” capital. The Labour governments of that period also began to dot the Jordan valley and Golan Heights with Jewish settlements, ostensibly in order to guard the new borders against a still hostile Arab world. After 1977, the Likud governments of Menahem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir set out frankly, for religious-ideological reasons, to make the occupied territories part of a Greater Israel, in defiance of the UN and of the logic of 242. Here Israel cannot plead innocence. All it can enter is a plea of mitigation.

Legal or not, the occupation has lasted a terribly long time. But this is not solely Israel's fault. In 1967, it was the Arabs who rejected Resolution 242. They certainly did not accept Israel's new post-war borders, but nor did they recognise its pre-war borders. They did not, in fact, acknowledge Israel's right to exist at all. This posture persisted for a dozen years after 1967, until Egypt alone made peace. The Palestinians, pledging still to “liberate” all Palestine and dissolve the Jewish state, waited longer. Not until the late 1980s, some 40 years after Israel's birth and 20 years after the 1967 war, did Mr Arafat's PLO indicate an interest in a two-state solution. Under the rules of “belligerent occupation”, Israel should not have mucked about during those 20 years with the status of the captured lands. But it is not wholly surprising, given the continuing rejection and siege, that it did.
 
boarder said:
And you wonder why people blow themselves up attacking you, isn't it obvious?

Yes, I wonder why. Maybe you could explain me obvious reasons to target civilians?

Another massacre, add it to the list.

The investigation isn't over. There may still be surprise.

Who are the terrorists again?

In case you didn't know, today 19 missiles were fired into Israeli cities. During the week before Gaza-beach accident tens of missiles were fired into Israeli cities. So I think answer is pretty obvious. Terrorists are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Brigades Al-Aqsa, Hizbollah and so on.
Oh, one more thing, there are no stinking zionist settlers in the Gaza right now.

Edit: read this, it was also first called Israeli massacre
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/09/23/Gaza_Hamas_explosion20050923.html
 
Leha said:
Yes, I wonder why. Maybe you could explain me obvious reasons to target civilians?
Because they feel there own civilians are being targeted and things like this killing of a family having a barbie on the beach just reinforces it to them.
Leha said:
The investigation isn't over. There may still be surprise.
Suprise, more people are dead and the cycle of violence has continued.
Leha said:
In case you didn't know, today 19 missiles were fired into Israeli cities. During the week before Gaza-beach accident tens of missiles were fired into Israeli cities. So I think answer is pretty obvious. Terrorists are Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Brigades Al-Aqsa, Hizbollah and so on.
Oh, one more thing, there are no stinking zionist settlers in the Gaza right now.
And how many of these missiles did that family fire?
The ends doesnt always justify the means.
 
boarder said:
Because they feel there own civilians are being targeted and things like this killing of a family having a barbie on the beach just reinforces it to them.

IDF doesn't target civilians. If it was, Gaza strip wouldn't exist anymore.

Suprise, more people are dead and the cycle of violence has continued.

By surprise I ment investigation isn't over. It could turn out to be not IDF fault. Did you read link below? It could be something like this. So don't jump a gun, wait abit.

And how many of these missiles did that family fire?
The ends doesnt always justify the means.

I already explained this, but I will explain it one more time and one more time.
It is VERY simple if you stop demonising Israel and just look at situation.
So, here we go.

1. Gaza strip isn't occupied anymore.
2. Terrorists nevertheless never stop bombing israeli cities from Gaza strip
3. Government of Hamas don't stop terrorists from bombing israeli territory.
4. Government of Israel have to defend its citisens from outside agressors, but considering IDF and Israel policy of not tardeting civilians all IDF can do is shelling launch sites in uninhabited areas. (though I think if our cities are bombed we could freely bomb their cities in return, but this is just my opinion)
 
Sidhe said:
Who are you trying to convince yourself or me? I'm sorry but those laws of my land do not apply to war time situations and they do not excuse breach of treaty, again, you can make a case but to me it sounds like bending laws that aren't apropriate to breaking point. If you want to convince yourself, fine mission achieved, if you want to convince the rest of the world, very much mission denied, from reading the history this is a case of inavsion in clear breach of treaty, an act in fact decried by the Israeli people, now that the dust of that action has settled, you claim it is a legal act under the terms of your treaty and that you can justify it with a single countries law(no matter how inapropriate that is) The UN has suggested you give over land taken for peace.

http://www.economist.com/world/na/displayStory.cfm?story_id=1378577

Here's a nice link from the Economist, that explains the situation pretty well I thought.

Awww, grrrreat article!!

I say, why not demand UK withdrawal from american and australian continents, huh?
 
Leha said:
IDF doesn't target civilians. If it was, Gaza strip wouldn't exist anymore.
It doesnt matter what the IDF say, its how they are percieved by the Palestinians that causes terrorism.
Leha said:
By surprise I ment investigation isn't over. It could turn out to be not IDF fault. Did you read link below? It could be something like this. So don't jump a gun, wait abit.
I know what you meant, i was saying that it doesnt really matter what the outcome the damage has been done and this will only feed the cycle of violence.
Leha said:
I already explained this, but I will explain it one more time and one more time.
It is VERY simple if you stop demonising Israel and just look at situation.
So, here we go.

1. Gaza strip isn't occupied anymore.
2. Terrorists nevertheless never stop bombing israeli cities from Gaza strip
3. Government of Hamas don't stop terrorists from bombing israeli territory.
4. Government of Israel have to defend its citisens from outside agressors, but considering IDF and Israel policy of not tardeting civilians all IDF can do is shelling launch sites in uninhabited areas. (though I think if our cities are bombed we could freely bomb their cities in return, but this is just my opinion)
I know the situation there, it still doesnt make it right, have you ever admitted that Israel has made a mistake before?
 
Sh3kel said:
The idea is to make life for the civilians impossible and frusttrating as possible so that one of two things happen:
A) They pick up their arms and drive away the Qassam fireteams out of range from Israel;
B) They leave, making targeting the fireteams via artillery a less-messy bussiness since we can now shell the civilian free area to our heart's contents.

So far, I think professionally this is the wrong course of action. Neither of these means work as intended, yet the General Staff seems to think the proper course of action is to shell opens fields day and night and not kill anyone or anything in the hopes of scaring stuff away (like flailing your arms around and screaming like a ****** at a mountain cat - it will usually be startled over your size and cries and will flee instead of jumping at you and eating your delicious brains).
The ideal situation would be to insert sniper teams at suspected shelling zones in 24-72 hour ambushes, just like was standadrd operational procedure when we were in Lebanon. It sucked to be in those ambushes, but it got the job done and done good.

If it were up to me? I'd be shelling the fireteams even WHILE at civilian zones. After 10-15 fireteams were lost to Artillery or Helicopter strikes, even inside civilian zones, the fireteams would be forced to locate a different launch pad. But that's just the way I see it from my desk at the Air Force.

Here's a crazy idea: instead of killing innocent civilians and being guilty of the same thing you are trying to stop, why not use laser missile defenses to shoot down the rockets? You also benefit from getting to run field testing of laser defense systems for use in any further wars. Not to mention such a capability would be extremely useful if Iran ever gets the bomb. It's not a long-term solution, but it will buy you time to either negotiate with Hamas and get them to take a stricter policy on this, or build up your military and force them to take a stricter policy.
 
Norseman2 said:
Here's a crazy idea: instead of killing innocent civilians and being guilty of the same thing you are trying to stop, why not use laser missile defenses to shoot down the rockets? You also benefit from getting to run field testing of laser defense systems for use in any further wars. Not to mention such a capability would be extremely useful if Iran ever gets the bomb. It's not a long-term solution, but it will buy you time to either negotiate with Hamas and get them to take a stricter policy on this, or build up your military and force them to take a stricter policy.

It is not crazy idea at all. Currently there is newest system in final test stage that is designed to destroy small missiles and even RPG granades. I think that if it will succed, it will help alot. BUT, why should such steps be taken??? Why HAMAS and other scum can't just leave us alone??
 
Cuz you stole their land :p
 
Leha said:
It is not crazy idea at all. Currently there is newest system in final test stage that is designed to destroy small missiles and even RPG granades. I think that if it will succed, it will help alot. BUT, why should such steps be taken??? Why HAMAS and other scum can't just leave us alone??
Why...oversimplifed, because of things like this beach shelling, you really expect them to leave you alone when you do this to them?
 
boarder said:
Why...oversimplifed, because of things like this beach shelling, you really expect them to leave you alone when you do this to them?

Edit:woops, sorry, missed it.
 
boarder said:
It doesnt matter what the IDF say, its how they are percieved by the Palestinians that causes terrorism.

Right, so world community should press palestinians to stop anti-israeli propaganda at schools and start negotiations with Israel. Right?

I know what you meant, i was saying that it doesnt really matter what the outcome the damage has been done and this will only feed the cycle of violence.

Wait a minute, but you already called it massacre, didn't you?

I know the situation there, it still doesnt make it right, have you ever admitted that Israel has made a mistake before?

Of course. I can't understand for example why our dumb bureocrats don't give permission to palestinian, whose wounded daughter (wounded by our missile) is currently in Israeli hospital, to visit her.
There are many mistakes, Israel isn't absolutely "white". But even if it turns out it was our shell, it was there by mistake, not because IDF targets civilians. All that is needed, they should stop bombing our cities. Immediately.
 
Leha said:
Right, so world community should press palestinians to stop anti-israeli propaganda at schools and start negotiations with Israel. Right?.
Yes


Leha said:
Wait a minute, but you already called it massacre, didn't you?
Yes, imo it was a massacre of innocent people.


Leha said:
Of course. I can't understand for example why our dumb bureocrats don't give permission to palestinian, whose wounded daughter (wounded by our missile) is currently in Israeli hospital, to visit her.
Awww so you do have a heart :p
Leha said:
There are many mistakes, Israel isn't absolutely "white". But even if it turns out it was our shell, it was there by mistake, not because IDF targets civilians. All that is needed, they should stop bombing our cities. Immediately.
I disagree, from sites I have quoted on these OT forums I believe that sometimes civilians are targeted.

Yes they should stop bombing your cities and Israel should stop all the things they do towards palestine, so who's going to be the first to stop???
 
boarder said:
Yes, imo it was a massacre of innocent people.

And if this was anti-tank mine which didn't explode before?

Yes they should stop bombing your cities and Israel should stop all the things they do towards palestine, so who's going to be the first to stop???

HELLO, WE ARE NOT IN GAZA ANYMORE.
 
boarder said:
Still a massacre.
Obviously would bring about it many different conotations though.


Give it a week or two ;)
Theres a lot more to it than that.

Frankly, I don't understand your logic. It is not matter of "two sides should stop it". It is matter of one side stopping it, because IDF didn't shell Gasa before Qasam bombings. I assure you the minute qasams will stop - shelling will stop too.
 
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