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Gedemon's Civilization, development thread

Discussion in 'Gedemon's Civilization, a total overhaul project' started by Gedemon, May 7, 2017.

  1. Knasp

    Knasp Warlord

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    I didn't chop any forests in the example I showed, so the extra materiel should have resulted from conversion by city buildings, or transferred from units? Do drafted units consume/return materiel once they're disbanding?
     
  2. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    From the screenshot it was from the city production, which could be the base city production value (based on city size, not limited by max stock) or buildings resources conversion (which is limited by the max stock but when a resource is used to create multiple resources, the limit is applied only when all produced resources are in overstock)

    The tooltip over the materiel supply value on the city panel should show which buildings did the conversion (or just show the city name if it was the base city production)

    drafted units return personnel (to their original city) each turn during disbanding, and return all materiel/equipment/resource in their stock but only at the last disbanding turn, when they are removed from the map.

    Note that if the drafted unit is killed in melee combat while disbanding, (part of) that stock is captured by the opponent unit, like normal combat (and lost when killed in ranged combat)
     
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  3. IanJones331

    IanJones331 Chieftain

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    So, I havent played civ since like civ 2 or 3 and my son got civ 6 for the switch for xmas, which I played long enough to make me want to get a civ game for the pc, because if i'm going to play I want mods. So, after looking over this site, I decided to go with civ 5 for a few reasons - its where all the mods were, I could get the game with all the expansions and DLCs for like $10, and I felt more comfortable running some of these RAM consuming mods on the comps I have (semi-new laptop with 8GB of ram but no video card is what I use instead of the older pc with 4gb of ram but a much better graphics card).

    @Gedemon after getting into some of the mods and checking them out, I decided that yours were the ones that really aimed toward something I would like, and I started following your progress on here, although admittedly, I haven't made it through all 30 pages of discussion yet. I was dismayed to learn that you had abandoned civ 5 for civ 6, (that's just because civ 5 is what i'm running) but I think I've made a fair assessment of what you're modding goals are - to create a more historically representative version of the game. I appreciate that goal very much and I want to help in whatever way I can. I'm not a coder, but I do run a lot of hours of ai observation to make sure the mods are doing what I think they're supposed to. 99% of my time in-game is doing this. Even though I'm running civ 5, I think I may be of some assistance with the dev of your project here, and I've compiled a list of things that stand out to me.

    I'm mostly focused on the ancient era right now, 1, being that I know more about the real history of that era than the others, and 2, because it is the most skewed part of any civ game I've played - the game always wants to rush you through it, when in fact, it was the longest era of any. My assumption is that ancient era = bronze age, classical era = iron age. And, being that the game starts you out at 4000BC, that means that the Ancient era is roughly equivalent to 3000 years, giving the game the benefit of some of the earliest iron ages taking place around 1000-700BC. The game makes it last sometimes much less than half that time, presumably for gameplay reasons like not giving civs with unique ancient era units advantage and to let you breeze through their tech and policy trees - neither of which I'm interested in.

    But let me just get to what I think are helpful observations (I'm long winded, I know). In civ 5, my game is focused around your YNAEMP mod (with the extra civs and CS) and your Historical Spawn Dates mod, which are the couple of bases of this overhaul mod you're doing (I've not played with the RED mod yet because it seemed so focused around WWII at first glance). I also use the IGE to be able to observe that the mods are working with the AI in a meaningful way, I use the Ancient Mediterranean Civs pack that you link to, and I use the Ironman mod because I want to mess with time and slow the game down. I'm glad you have decided to release the mod you're working on in different pieces because so far what I've read seems like you have focused quite a bit on unit/city micromanagement, which is way more intricate than what I would want for a broadview civilization sim/strategy game. But some of the concepts, you've come up with, if dumbed down a bit, could be very useful, IMO.

    - The first one that jumps out at me is the unit food supply. While adding a level of micromanagement that could be a bit tedious, I think it could be very useful to historical accuracy, not just for troops crossing barren deserts and tundras, but also for scouts and the ability to create a dynamic version of the "known world" throughout the ages. I've noticed in a lot of my games that Egypt will start where you put them, but will build their 2nd or 3rd city way down in south Africa where there are plenty of good city spots. Controlling the food rations of scouts and other units is a good way to make for better migration patterns, and how much of the world they can survey at the start of the game. Of course, you may have to kill or alter the unit's ability to get food from the yield of a tile, since nearly every tile has a food yield. (maybe if they can only get food from the yield of a tile you already own, something like that).

    - The next thing I've noticed is that the giant earth map changes the dynamic of civ growth and behavior a LOT, especially when paired with the Historic Spawns. With both of these mods in place, basically there is so much space at the beginning of the game that there are no wars until BC is almost over with. I use the ancient Mediterranean civs, along with the cradle of civilization civs. I plug in everyone's starting positions in the xml and I give them all historic start dates (I changed a good bit of this sql to reflect when they became a true civ, as opposed to when they were just a bunch of scattered tribes). So, the start of my game goes something like I've got Egypt with their starting location moved to the mouth of the nile (to get them out of the way of nubia who comes in later and often conflicts with Egypt's second city along the nile), Sumer starting over there by the Persian Gulf, and the Mesoamerican civ from the Cradles pack starting between north and south America across the globe. Harappa (the civ not the CS) comes in at -3300, and Persia and Nubia are next at -3200. Even with a couple civs coming in after that there is hardly any war (unless Egypt gets agitated with nubia) until Assyria hits the map at -2500 and gets a few cities spread out. So, even with the aggression mod on, war doesn't even make an appearance until after -2000, and even with the Ironman slowdown, this means that most civs are well into the classical era by then, making most of the ancient era unique units obsolete by the time any civ gets to use them. The same is true with the large Mediterranean map. The large earth map (greatest earth) gives the best experience (the first war is usually between 3500-3000BC) in that regard, but with all the Mediterranean start ups that I use + the Ironman slowdown, the area gets crowded pretty quick after -1000, but again, switching to the Large Mediterranean map produces the same issue - ancient units being obsolete.

    - This leads to my next point...I think I read that your stance on barbarians and CS are not as relevant to the game as true civs, for the purposes of what you're trying to achieve. I would personally urge you to rethink that! Not only could some of the "ancient units being obsolete" problem be rectified by giving civs barbarians to fight with in the ancient era, but they both hold historical and gameplay value as well! While city states can't conquer land, and it's technically true that any civ throughout history COULD conquer land, some of them just didn't. But, regardless of that, city states impart a part of the gameplay that would be hard to do without. Because they can't expand, they use their production for unit spam (which yes can be annoying) but also provides a means for non-military inclined civs to defend themselves. Eg - how much of a pushover would ghandi be if he couldn't befriend city states? Any dom victory civ could just roll over him like his civ was nothing more than a few barbarian encampments? Barbarians, IMO, are even more useful and important than CS. While you can only get a finite number of civs and CS in any game, barbarians are useful in that they don't count against that number. And the way that the AI plays them is useful to historic context as well. A spawn of units on the map that you can't make friends with, nor can they take a city as their own, but can destroy cities. That's historically significant to the opportunity to create a "dark age" or the collapse of the bronze age, or anything historically similar. When barbarians started to take roman territory, they didn't understand their advancements, nor did they see them as useful They didn't move in and take over their tech and culture, they just destroyed it. One of the things that I'd like to do in my games is use the barbarians to represent cultures that led to civilizations and empires(which is why I switched the spawn dates). It's proving to be very challenging because I use IGE and I need to "reveal all" in order to see the AI progress, but when I do that, the barbarians can't spawn units or encampments. But what I would like to eventually do is go into the World Builder and place encampments at every civ's start position, then in the game, place a very advanced unit in the encampment (so that other civs can't knock it out and build there) and then let the camps spawn era appropriate units to interfere with the civs, in order to provide a way for them to make use of their ancient era units and to add the historically accurate sense that before these spawning civs were empires, they were just loosely organized tribes and city states.Then when the civ spawns in, it destroys the barbarian unit and encampment (I could be wrong but I think this is already in the code), which, sadly, it wouldn't be able to do if there was a civ or CS there. This also potentially having a big impact on migration patterns. To me, the barbarians are as important to the early eras as warmongering is to the industrial era (without warmongering there isn't much chance of a WWII occurring in game without much outside influence.

    Ok, I have a lot more, but that's way more than enough for now. Let me know if any of it is of interest to you. If not, I won't post the rest.
     
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  4. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Thanks, feedback is welcome on the mod's designs.

    I don't remember myself what was the initial stance on barbarian/CS, but in the latest discussions (edit: see here), we're going on something dynamic, with "Culture Groups" (CG) attached to different "tribes" (there are 3 "civilization" levels defined by the game's engine: "tribes", "minors", "full", with the only "tribe" civilization in the vanilla game being the "barbarian") and the ability to have tribes' CG evolving into minor (or temporary full) civs, with mechanisms to "preset" the area around the TSL of a major civ with CGs related to that civ, until its spawning date.

    Just as a side note, for civ5 there is the "RED Modpack" mod which is only graphic (no gameplay change at all) and the "RED WWII" mod, a full wargame conversion with a completely different gameplay.
     
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  5. IanJones331

    IanJones331 Chieftain

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    @Gedemon ok first let me recant a few things from earlier, like the eras being off by so much. Turns out that was more a problem with the Ironman mod decreasing the time lapse by over 10x while only increasing tech production requirement by around 4x. Also, I was not able to get barbarians in the game because of the reveal all thing in IGE, so there was nothing to stunt the growth of early game civs. I've since worked around it a bit by allowing the game to run a few turns before I reveal all, so that it creates the encampments before I reveal. It cant create new encampments after, so to compensate I give them a few free techs to make them stick around longer (the barbarians in civ 6 are quite a bit better than their virtually ******** civ 5 counterparts). So now I can have a better understanding of the barbarians and their AI at least, as well as test what level of barbarians are appropriate for a given map.

    Ok, so admittedly, I'm having trouble understanding the end goal for this whole "culture" part of the mod. All I know at this point is that its inclusion to the civ 5 YNAEMP (v25) ruins the map setup interface and possibly the stability of the mod (Ive stopped using it and went back to v22 even though I love the maps in it). Let me take a stab at it and see if my guess is close. So, the culture will be somehow associated across the board of civs, CS, and barbs, and since you want them to evolve into each other dynamically, you're going to use the culture stuff to do something like - ok this civ ended around 600BC in real life so in the game, we are going to start giving them more and more unhappiness to their cities around this time (I LOVE that idea) and eventually the cities will revolt and turn into barbarians, and those barbs will eventually become city states, and that city state may eventually become a civ. But the game needs to know which city state and which civ these barbs will eventually grow into so we are going to assign a culture parameter to determine if these barbs will eventually be greeks or romans or africans, etc. Is that anywhere close? You're more or less delimiting what a dynamically occurring civ can dynamically occur as?

    I'll check out the RED stuff and see what its all about!

    In finality, I'll present two more issues with the mods, both historical and gameplay oriented. As I said, I'm running the civ 5 version so if you've already addressed these issues, just ignore. The first issue is that, a good amount of time in the Dynamic Spawn mod, the civs are spawning after their uniques are already outdated. Not just with the custom civs but with the vanilla and expansion civs as well. For instance, there's no archaeological evidence to support The Aztecs ever having existed before approx. 1300AD, which puts them right smack in the middle of the medieval era, but their unique unit is in the ancient era. I'm trying to rework some of the civs uniques, and I can kind of just look at the script and understand most of what's going on, but I can't figure out their prereq resources. I look at the rows of CIV5Unitsxml and I see prereq tech code so i'm assuming there should be something like prereq_resources in that block as well but not one unit has anything like thatso I'm not sure how the game is determining that a unit needs the Iron resource, or the Horse resource etc before it can be built.

    Second, and this is more just my opinion than anything, but I think it would be more historically accurate to make warmongering and its penalties start happening at the start of the industrial era. As is, I think it starts at the classical or medieval era. But as far as the historical gameplay is concerned, I feel like this is the script that is the most useful for WWI and WWII having the opportunity to develop naturally. In one of my games, I had Assyria winning the board at a dom victory (by a lot) and causing the entire world to despise them, the result being that effectively the first world war was fought before the birth of Christ lol. New civs were popping in right beside Assyria's territory and automatically hating them, which didn't bode well for the new civs, since they would denounce Assyria before they had an effective military and when they joined the war against Assyria, they were basically just two or three more cities for Assyria to quickly add to their collection. The other in-game problem with warmongering is that the AI's only reaction to it is to become super passive and start making friends with every other nation they can, which means that once warmongering happens, there is only one AI in the game interested in a dom victory. There is no instance that I've observed of an AI countering a warmonger by saying ok let me take over some weaker civs too so that I can compete in the dom victory. So while Assyria is on the rampage, Alexander is sitting over there making friends with all his neighbors while he denounces and subsequently tries to defend his territory from Assyrian assault. Pretty sure this is much the same in civ 6, since both my campaigns in the game were dom victories (on settler and prince) and I got plenty of civs denouncing me for being a warmonger and a couple civs denouncing me for going after the same victory they wanted, but no civs actually trying to compete with me at that victory, and my longest campaign only went to the beginning of the medieval era. Historically speaking, I don't think civs cared that much about warmongering before the industrial era and the world wars because Imperialism was just part of how the world operated at that point. There were kings that marched on the pope while bribing the romans to let them pass unabated. There were civilizations completely assimilated by another civ, and for all the other civs that had diplomatic relations with the defeated civ, it was just a new day in somebody else's court.
     
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  6. Loffas

    Loffas Warlord

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    Hi.
    I really like the development points in different fields. It makes the development of your society more rewarding.
    Have you considered technology points transfer or tech diffusion between neighboring civs. Where treaties, trade routes and culture rate could affect transfer (speed) of technologies.

    Best regards Loffas
     
  7. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Yes, Technology Diffusion is planned, using "knowledge" pseudo-resources.

    A small report on the current progress as I haven't posted new updates recently, there are three points I'm working on.

    1/ I need to code the "Application" side of the Research mechanisms, for which we have to decide how to apply a maintenance cost for Technologies/Applications.

    2/ I need to change the old code for "Culture Diffusion" to adapt it to the population migration mechanism. Instead of having generic "Culture" values for each culture groups on each plot raising each turn in cities (and also being converted to the owner CG there) then diffused to other plots (which represented both the culture implementation strength and a simulation of plots population in the civ5 mod), I want to simply have values that show the number of people from a specific culture group (has we track the real population numbers now), update culture on population migration and convert it based on relative strength from the relative city output for the plot's owner, or an average value based on (total output / number of cities) for Civilizations CG on plots they don't own, and from the current strength value (based on spawn date, end date, peak value) for non-civilization CG. This is a pre-requisite before implementing more mechanism based on population (needs/stability, etc...)

    3/ I'd like to update the Assets to use only one unit mod as a base (@Wolfdog Warfare Expanded, STEAM version) instead of the current multiple merged mods setup, but I need to check if all Assets we need for our units lines are available in his mod. This is also linked to the "Application" research code, as we may want to have special units/equipment unlocked by applications.
     
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  8. Wolfdog

    Wolfdog Unit Butcher

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    Just let me know if you are missing any assets and I will add them. I know the F-117 is still there even though it is not being used and a couple of others I think. All the WE Armored Assault assets are in the main mod so you should have access to those assets as well.
     
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  9. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Update
    Code:
    - change map Culture Diffusion code to use only Migration, and match Culture Groups values to real population
    - initial work on the PlotToolTip to allow better formatting of plot information (starting with Culture Groups)
    - add per era version of the "Central Square" buildings, with better yields for later eras, to make new cities more competitive
     
  10. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Small update (which break saved game, I mean, it's expected, but this time even saved games from the recent update above)
    Code:
    - initial implementation of Migration data in PlotToolTip
    Spoiler PlotTooltip W.I.P. :
    Clipboard-1.jpg


    1st column shows the direction when migration occurs from adjacent plots
    2nd is either the other plot's coordinate or the city name if the plot is a city
    3rd is the current turn migration (+ means migration from that plot, - means migration to that plot)
    4th is the total migration balance to/from that plot since the beginning of the game
     
  11. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Small update
    Code:
    - add more Migration info on the PlotToolTip
    - tweak "Pull" value for "Food" on owned plots
    - bug fix: get correct employment value on plots without resources (based on Food yield)
    Spoiler PlotToolTip :
    Clipboard-4.jpg
     
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  12. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Small update
    Code:
    - bug fix: don't draw the plots ToolTip below the screen bottom
     
  13. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Small update
    Code:
    - Add Ancestor's Hall, Forum, Senate, Parliament buildings
     
  14. roman_architect

    roman_architect Chieftain

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    Man, please keep developing this mod. This is the most engaged I've been in a Civ game since the series started. I"m an old man and started with Civ 1. I'm currently in the mid game and will provide feedback when I'm done. I've been playing for 4 days straight, breaks for sleeping. Do you have any tips on speeding up the turns. I have a beast of a computer with 64 gigs of ram, but still the turns are very long. I know it is probably all the processing you are doing to create the incredible experience, but just thought I would ask. I'm going to overclock my processor a little tomorrow to see if that helps any. Honestly though, it is worth the wait times. Just wanted to give you a huge thumbs up and thank you for all the fun I've had this week. I know you said it was only meant to play through the ancient/classical era but I went ahead and played it through the end of the Renaissance.

    The main few things I noticed as it stands now are:
    - the was not nearly enough global wars. People made alliances readily, which I think might be deterring wars. I was only declared on once through 1650 ad, and that was in the very beginning.
    - money had the right balance of difficulty in the early stages. It became a minor problem in medieval, and was completely not challenging in the late medieval and renaissance. I had 100,000 gold and didn't even pay attention to it. Most of the income was from exports, netting about 6k per turn from that line item.
    - The cost of rebuilding cities after taken is a bit much in the early game. By medieval it become a non issue. I only owned France and Italy from your map pack.
    - The AI doesn't quite manage its cities growth that well, they lagged behind mine in city size and I was playing on Immortal. They may need an exception or additional boosts. By the Renaissance, Rome was sized 32, the largest other city in the game was around 15.
    - The AI's expansion was very good, they colonized wide areas and their unit production was good, many having very large armies. I was still ranked only number 4 in technology by the end, but had a smaller empire by number of cities than the sprawling empires.
    - Some of my cities were misusing their food resources, and I couldn't put my finger on it. Some were surrounded by farmland and were shrinking due to food restrictions. It didn't happen that much, but it was noticeable when it did, causing a drop in 4 or 5 population before it corrected it self. Greece was even making a bee line for the new world after the discovery of ocean going vessels. They sent 4 ships that way.
    - The AI was vastly under producing navy, espeically compared to their land forces. It may be a problem of not prioritizing the ship making building for costal cities. I only saw 5 enemy ships the entire game.
    - The population numbers are overestimated by timeline by at lest 25% (minor issue).
    - The distribution of population to key areas of my economy that I wanted to maximize was hard to achieve. Even in the renaissance my iron mine was still only working at like 20% capacity with a city size of 23. This may be my lack of understanding how to force population to a square. I had it selected and locked in the citizen manager screen, is there another way to allocate more efficiently? This problem was causing my armies to upgrade at a very slow rate compared to my tech level.
    - In my opinion the techs were achieved about 15%-20% too fast based on era. This can be adjusted through lowering the city growth or reducing the passive research gained from citizens.
    - England didn't function properly and didn't know where to spawn on the map. It ended up randomly in brazil.
    - Because of my lack of iron production, it was impossible to build up enough resources for my advanced units. It would automatically allocate those resources to existing units, which provided no material benefit until they passed the threshold making them upgrade. It would be great if we could simply have a toggle to prioritize reinforcing with advanced equipment, or keeping it in stock for a new unit.

    That is all I can remember for now, and thanks again for this fantastic experience. I can't wait to follow this thread and keep up with your work. When I get job I will definitely donate to your cause.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
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  15. Knasp

    Knasp Warlord

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    Played a game today with the latest version and the culture/migration mechanics seem to be working fine, but I need to spend more time testing before I can give any useful feedback about that.

    A big issue for A.I. seem to be barbarians, and I note that barbarians fielded chariot units only 20 turns into the game. It would be better if we could delay barbarian chariots until at least 2000 BC. That would be around turn 80-84 at Standard game speed. Barbarians with iron swords and horse archers should appear around turn 113-121, at the earliest. Barbarian Galleys should appear somewhere between 80-120 turns. Apart from historical immersion, it could also benefit the A.I. Civs in the early game.

    Reviewing the tech tree, I'd recommend these changes:
    • Sailing: Galleys should be moved 1-2 columns to the right. Shipyards could be given some non-military bonus like fishing/gold/trade, so that they're useful to construct even before unlocking Galleys.
    • Mining should be moved a column to the left, except for "Armorer" which should be placed together with Bronze working.
    • Masonry should be placed before Large wheel (chariot units), Currency and warships (Galleys). At least Ancient walls and The Pyramids should be possible to build, before any of those things appear.
    • Bronze working should be placed on the same column as Chariots (Large wheel).
    • Foreign trade should come before Currency.
    • Currency belongs in the Classical Era, alongside Iron working, horseback riding etc. Market building should definately become available earlier though, maybe with Foreign trade?
    • What does Treadmill refer to? Is it an animal-powered mill of some sort? (Large Wheel)
    Concerning cities, I propose to reduce the construction time/cost of building. At least for the equipment-producing buildings. Maybe reduce the building time/costs to about 75-50% of the current level?
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2019
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  16. Loffas

    Loffas Warlord

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    Im not sure about the other stuff but currency should be before iron working, but perhaps after foreign trade,. It kind of depends on the definition of trade in this case. As long as both are before iron working im happy :)
    The major powers during the bronze age where trading super powers with their own currencys :p
     
  17. Knasp

    Knasp Warlord

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    Yes, Currency is indeed quite a wide term. But the icon and ingame effects suggest Coinage, which was developed during the Iron Age. Of course metal ingots/bullion were used before before Iron working, but so was many other non-metal items, and I would question whether these early metal currencies were important as means of exchange, rather than being traded for their own sake.
    And if we're talking "Currency" as means of exchange, then I believe that grain and other foodstuff have been a major form of payment in trade, up until modern times.
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
  18. Loffas

    Loffas Warlord

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    Yeah okey, coinage yes. I have looked it up and you are right. The first to have used standarized metal ingots (rods) was mesopotamia like 2000 BC but the first actual coins where probebly the Lydians about 600 BC. And that is (almost) iron age. Just like coinage, the use of iron gradually spread.
    It feels good to admit that you where right and i was wrong :D
     
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  19. Gedemon

    Gedemon Modder Moderator

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    Just a small progress update, as you may know the GS patch has broken map generation for a few mods, and with late games crashes being more frequent, I've been busy trying to sort out what can be done for YnAMP.

    I managed to have a quick look at the overhaul, and started to update it for that patch too, as there are a lot of changes in the UI side, but I've hit a showstopper here:
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...nership-in-scenarios-mods-for-vanilla.643203/

    As the mod rely a lot on that mechanism (plot changing ownership based on culture/migration, and, in the future, the implementation of frontlines), I have two possibilities:
    - wait for Firaxis to patch the issue
    - switch the mod to Gathering Storm (as it's still possible to change plot ownership with GS)

    Both could take some time, the second would take some additional work.

    I'd like to take a decision before working on updating the mod, because I'd prefer to not work twice on the UI files (once to make them compatible with vanilla post GS patch, and another to make them compatible with GS itself if waiting for Firaxis is not an option)

    The main problem with updating for Gathering Storm is that I have no idea yet if the new mechanisms that are incompatible or redundant with the mod could be easily neutralized. As I said when R&F was out, the problem with expansions is that the new mechanisms are frequently hardcoded (even less time to make them moddable than the base game) and so more difficult if not impossible to mod (it's part of the problem I have with YnAMP and the new climate and natural disasters related changes)

    I'd like also your input to know how many of you have not switched to GS and would prefer to keep the mod working without any DLC/expansion.
     
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  20. Knasp

    Knasp Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2011
    Messages:
    266
    I've personally switched to GS and would definitely prefer going with that solution.

    I would like the overhaul mod to have the possibility of including natural disasters, canals, geographic names etc.

    I believe most people that get Civ6 will also pick up Gathering Storm, but at the same time I also think it's best not to require any other DLCs. GS supposedly includes many R&F mechanics, that could potentially be utilized or repurposed as well. If so, that would imply that R&F is optional and shouldn't be required.
     
    mbaratta83 likes this.

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