German help needed!

[El Bogus]

Funny thread... haha

 

[Mirc]

phone calls in foreign languages are the most challenging thing indeed, i have to say.

I'm so glad that people are understanding I knew I was not the only one with this problem while talking in another language.

Also: "Hallo, hier ist Mirc." oder "Hallo, Mirc hier, ..." oder so etwas in der Art.

Sehr gut, so habe ich es geschrieben! (auf die erste Weise (?))
Very well, that's how I said it! (first variant, I mean, but I don't know how to say that in German )

Oh believe me I know what you are going through at the moment, I've been learning Arab for not really long and will be going for 4 months to Syria this Summer, so ;-)

Well, lots of luck with those smashin' Syrian women then!

Well then, do the SMS, but you know that if or when you are on the date, you will have to speak German

If destiny wants it this way, who am I to stand up against it?

Otherwise, why don't you try to use your charme of not being able to speak, could be sexy as well .

That's what I do, pretty much. Well, I mean it's obvious that I'm not like that normally, since I pretty much use every occasion to make a joke in English if the situation allows it, but that only makes it more interesting. You know, complex, mysterious personality and stuff...

As said, the SMS seems ok, everything can be made better but i think it will do the job. Little less conversation, a little more action please

Considering the way I know this girl, I doubt that this attitude would be a problem at all.

 

[willemvanoranje]

When on the phone with a job interviewer, yeah. It would be rather strange if he used "wie bitte" when talking to friends.

Sure, I was kind of operating out of the assumption of a formal or at least semi-formal conversation. Then again, even in informal conversation you can use 'wie, bitte' as a style figure.. but that's probably to complicated for now.

But wouldn't just 'wie' be a good for informal conversation as well? Maybe not with your very best friend, but still..

 

[Mirc]

Just as a small pointer, I'd advise you to use "Wie bitte?". Saying "was" is a bit rude, even though I'm sure people will forgive you in your case.

Well, I do know that, but it'll be hard to shake that instinct... I almost never manage to block those things in time to stop saying them, but sometimes, if the situation is formal, I would basically... redirect the sentence. I'd say something like "Was? Erm... was haben Sie gesagt? Entschuldigung, ich habe Sie nicht verstanden." or something along those lines ("what? erm... what did [formal you] say? I didn't understand [formal you]").

Quite standard for anyone in a new culture and language. But only time will help you here. It takes time... what helped me learning Portuguese a lot was listening to songs and speaking to people on IM when I'd also be talking to people back home....strangely enough.

I know about the time thing, after all I've only been living here 5 months, and my knowledge when I arrived was pretty shaky, to say the least. I'm also in a bit of a "lack of practice period" right now with German, because I had some Romanian friends over for some 6 days or so, and went to quite a lot of English-speaking parties in the past week, making my use of German very, very seldom. (wow, I almost wrote "selten" there, some changes must be happening! )

Very recognisable. That passive to active knowledge is a small step though.

I know about that, I can only hope that the gap will close up pretty soon. The problem is that even if I understand a word from its context, I'll rarely manage to remember it for more than a couple of minutes (I've even had the crazy idea of walking around with a small notebook all the time, just to write down whatever I hear and understand, or hear and don't have time to understand - but everybody who sees me will probably think I'm crazy if I actually did that).

Use it once, and all over sudden its in your vocabulary. What worked for me was to wake up one morning and decide to use it, no matter what, and by preference starting a conversation with the sole purpose of using it. It may not always fit in perfectly, but just jump at that first opportunity you get!

Hey, I've done that!! Quite a lot actually!! I really have to do it sometime soon with "doch", I'm hunting the negative questions from anyone I'm talking to, but even this way I rarely get to think about it before I answer, rendering my answer incorrect 90% of the times.

Anyway, I have a couple of weeks of holidays at the uni, meaning that I only have to work 2 days a week, so I will make sure I learn a lot of German in this time. I must be able to see an improvement sooner or later.


Somehow I missed your post entirely. Sorry about that!!

also, with the wrong inflection, it can easily mean "WTH are you talking about?"

in Switzerland the most common informal way is just to say "Entschuldigung?" (or Tschuldigung?)

I do that too! I answer either with "was", "Entschuldigung" or various combinations f the above "Entschuldigung, was haben Sie gesagt?". "Wie bitte" is in my passive vocabulary right now. I'm definitely gonna force it in in some conversation soon, it's not like I don't need this often.

On a somewhat related note, the way the people from Spain and South America say "Entschuldigung" is a bit of an inside joke in my circle of friends. It's too complicated to explain, but listen to native Spanish speakers (at a not-so-advanced lever) say it - it will often come out as something like "Entschurdigun!".

 

[scherbchen]

agreed on the phonecalling bit. when I was living in Spain I loathed talking to my landlord on the phone or to just about any Spaniard I had not already known for quite a bit though I felt pretty confident, back then, about my conversational skills.

I suppose that there are some frequencies, wave-lengths, or sound-bites missing when listening to someone on the phone that you automatically reconstruct when you are really familiar with the language. I believe I once heard that fricatives, for example, are horribly mangled by telephones and that you merely do not realize it because your brain reassembles the sounds into what it thinks it ought to sound like.

 

[kalif]

On a somewhat related note, the way the people from Spain and South America say "Entschuldigung" is a bit of an inside joke in my circle of friends. It's too complicated to explain, but listen to native Spanish speakers (at a not-so-advanced lever) say it - it will often come out as something like "Entschurdigun!".

Real insiders mutter "Schuldjung"!

 

[Mirc]

Ok guys, I need some help here! I have to write an essay for a music theory course I'm taking... it's 5 pages long, and I've already managed to convince a real German friend of mine to proof-read it when it's done, but since I had to do it really fast, I decided it would be best to write it in a mix of English-Romanian-German and then translate it into "pure" German later, but I seem to be running into a lot of trouble (more than I expected) in the process of translating certain expressions.

The essay is due on Wednesday, which is why I have to finish the translation today, so that this German guy I mentioned will have the time to read and correct it tomorrow.

If anyone could help, I'd be really grateful. Expect lots of questions from me in this time. I'll provide context when necessary, but don't worry about the technical terms - that's the only part I'm sure of!


First question - when talking in the past, am I supposed to always use the imperfect instead of the composed perfect (eg "machte" instead of "hat ... gemacht")? Or how would it look best?

Second - how would you translate the section "along the course of the history of music" into German?

Third - (damn you, prepositions!) what preposition should I use with the word "role"? As in, "its role in the architecture of the music has suffered the most dramatic changes". I'm guessing it's either an, in or bei, but I could be entirely wrong.

 

[holy king]

First question - when talking in the past, am I supposed to always use the imperfect instead of the composed perfect (eg "machte" instead of "gemacht hat")? Or how would it look best

simple answer: alsways go with the imperfekt.
for a complicated answer i would have to see the text itself. but you wont sound awfully awkward if you just go with imperfekt.

Second - how would you translate the section "along the course of the history of music" into German?

im Laufe der Musikgeschichte.

Third - (damn you, prepositions!) what preposition should I use with the word "role"? As in, "its role in the architecture of the music has suffered the most dramatic changes". I'm guessing it's either an, in or bei, but I could be entirely wrong.

in. seine Rolle in der Architektur der Musik.

architecture of music? never heard that expression in german, but you study it, so i guess it's ok?
Aufbau der Musik or Musikaufbau would sound more natural to my ears.

 

[Mirc]

Wow, "im Laufe der Musikgeschichte" and "Aufbau" are exactly the wordings I ended up using, swear to God!! "Architecture" does work in English in a figurative sense, but sounds a bit awkward in German to me too - although I tried to germanize my expressions as much as possible, I was writing in English so I didn't have to think about every word and whether it is going to fit in the German translation or not. That's how I came up with that one.


New questions: how do you say "and as such, [...]"?

Here it is in context:

It is to be expected that the Grundton of the chords is present in the bass line, and as such, that the music of the time is centered around the deepest male voice there is. The composers und Theoretiker of the time were almost exclusively male, and therefore, it should come as no surprise that the center of gravity is to be found in the deepest part of the music, and not anywhere else.

Until now, I have:

Es ist zu erwarten, dass der Grundton der gesungenen Akkorde in der Basslinie vorhanden ist, und as such, dass die Musik dieser Zeit um (correct preposition?) die tiefste männliche Stimme zentriert ist. Die Komponisten und Theoretiker der Zeit waren fast ausschließlich Männer, und deswegen sollte es keine Überraschung sein, dass der Schwerpunkt im tiefsten Teil der Musik zu finden ist.

Anyway, if anyone here has the time for it, do let me know what you think about the first two paragraphs of my essay:

Die Entwicklung der Basslinien in mehrstimmigen Chorsätzen im Laufe der Musikgeschichte machte zahlreiche komplizierte, fundamentale Wandlungen durch, die zur Existenz einer ausgedehnten Mannigfaltigkeit an der Organisation der tiefsten Stimme in diversen Stücken aus verschiedenen Zeiten führten. Tatsächlich, wenn ein solcher Vergleich nicht übertrieben ist, könnte man sagen, dass unter allen traditionellen Stimmen, die in choraler Musik zu finden sind, der Bass die dramatischsten (correct?) Umwandlungen duldete, und dass seine Rolle im Aufbau der Musik am Meisten abgewandelt wurde.

In den früheren Stadien der Entfaltung der Basslinien mehrstimmiger Chorsätze, wurde der Bass als Unterstützung für die anderen Stimmen und die diversen von ihnen dargestellten Harmonien gedacht, und nicht als eine Linie mit ihrer unabhängigen, eigenen, sinvollen Melodie. Das führte dazu, dass der Bass den sprunghaftesten Charakter hatte, mit oft vorkommenden, großen Sprüngen, großem Umfang und mit der wenigsten ästhetischen Anziehung von allen in einem solchen Chorsatz existierenden Stimmen. Der Bass spielte also die Rolle einer bloßen Unterstützung für den Rest der Musik, was die besondere Charaktereigenschaft ist, die ihn unter allen traditionallen Stimmen einzigartig und speziell macht.

I know that it's really complicated German, and that some of the words might not fit in the context, since I took some of them out of dictionaries, in order not to repeat the same ones over and over again; and I know that some of those won't fit in there no matter how good my dictionaries are.

And here's the original (mostly) English, to please the mods:

Spoiler :

The evolution of basslines in mehrstimmige Chorsätze along the course of the history of music has undergone numerous complex, fundamental changes, which led to the existence of a large diversity in the organization of the lowest-pitched voice within different pieces from various periods of time. In fact, if such a comparison is not exaggerated, one could say that among all the various traditional voices present in choral music, it is the bass that has suffered the most dramatic changes, and whose role in the architecture of the music has been altered the most.

In the earlier stages of development of the basslines in mehrstimmige Chorsätze, the bass was being thought of as a support for the other voices, and the various harmonies described by those, and not as an independent line with its own, sinvoll melody. This led to it having the most sprunghaft character, mit oft vorkommenden, grossen jumps, grossem Ambitus, and least aesthetic appeal of all the voices found in such a Chorsatz. The bass was thus playing the role of a mere support for the rest of the music, which is the particular quality making it unique among all the traditional voices found in mehrstimmige pieces.

 

[uppi]

New questions: how do you say "and as such, [...]"?

Generally you would translate it as "und als solche/r/s". However your sentence doesn't really make sense to me in English (what exactly do you refer with "as such"?) so I can't tell you how to translate it in this case.

Anyway, if anyone here has the time for it, do let me know what you think about the first two paragraphs of my essay:

Already quite good. There are only two things that sound wrong:

einer ausgedehnten Mannigfaltigkeit an der Organisation der tiefsten Stimme

"Mannigfaltigkeit" (pretty fancy word, by the way) doesn't work with the definite singular here. Usually you need the plural, like "Mannigfaltigkeit an Organisationen". However "Organisationen" sounds a bit awkward here, but that could just be my ignorance of music theory here. Maybe you could get away with "Mannigfaltigkeit an Organisation".

der Bass die dramatischsten (correct? -> yes!) Umwandlungen duldete

"duldete" is awkward in figurative use. It implies that the bass line has a mind of its own that was opposed to all the changes or something. "erlebte" would be better here, although the bass line isn't really alive, because the figurative use of it is way more common.

I am not sure, whether "Umwandlungen" is good here. Maybe "Veränderungen" fits "changes" better

 

[Mirc]

Generally you would translate it as "und als solche/r/s". However your sentence doesn't really make sense to me in English (what exactly do you refer with "as such"?) so I can't tell you how to translate it in this case.

Ah I definitely understand what you mean - but what I used there is a different (incorrect actually, in my case!) usage of "as such". You see, it has this meaning, that you mentioned, which can be translated through "solche/r/s", but it's also got another one...

Again, the way I used it there is not a gramatically correct usage of those two words, although it could have been, had I worded it differently. Although quite a lot of native speakers do make use of it this way. My bad for writing it like that. "As such" often gets used as a conjunction, connecting two sentences in a phrase (though only if both words are together, in this order - since "such as" has an entirely different meaning).

It means something along the lines of "[main sentence], and with the situation being this way, [blahblah]".

Let me give you an example:
"The sun is a star, and as such it emits light and heat". Or "The sun is a star - as such, it emits light and heat".

This, in particular, is a correct usage of those two words, because it mentions the sun, so it has a precedent - there is something that the word "such" can link to. If you can replace the "such" part with a noun, like the sun in the example above, it is indeed correct. But no need to get into the fine nuances of English grammar - this is the German thread after all.

What I wanted to say is: "It is to be expected that the Grundton of the chords is present in the bass line, and THEREFORE, that the music of the time is centered around the deepest male voice there is."

Already quite good. There are only two things that sound wrong:

"Mannigfaltigkeit" (pretty fancy word, by the way) doesn't work with the definite singular here. Usually you need the plural, like "Mannigfaltigkeit an Organisationen". However "Organisationen" sounds a bit awkward here, but that could just be my ignorance of music theory here. Maybe you could get away with "Mannigfaltigkeit an Organisation".

Took it out of a dictionary, because I was tired of using the same words! As I said, I actually expected this kind of words to be wrong. I realize that they might sound snobbish and posh, but it's just my humble try at not repeating the same nouns over and over again. The use of overly-fancy words is an obvious consequence of the poorness of my vocabulary - it also happens quite a lot with not-so-well-read native speakers who try to appear intelligent, but not being a native speaker, that can't possibly be my case!

"Organisation" might indeed be wrong also - although that's how I would use it in English and Romanian, that doesn't mean it has to work in German too.

So what would you use instead of this funny long word? Can you please provide me with an alternative? I'm basically just trying to say "diversity".

"duldete" is awkward in figurative use. It implies that the bass line has a mind of its own that was opposed to all the changes or something. "erlebte" would be better here, although the bass line isn't really alive, because the figurative use of it is way more common.

I am not sure, whether "Umwandlungen" is good here. Maybe "Veränderungen" fits "changes" better

Same story for those two words - taken out of a dictionary, they don't fit the context, etc etc. I'll change "duldete" into "erlebte" and "umwandlungen" into "Veränderungen".


Thanks a lot!

 

[uppi]

[English grammar lesson]

I suspected as much. I don't think there is a direct translation to German. This is one of the showcases why I prefer writing a text directly in the desired language instead of formulating it in another language and then translating it. In my opinion it's easier to come up with phrases in one language than it is to translate phrases between languages. And in the latter case you are always in danger of using the words of one language with the structure of another.

But then I only write texts in two languages.

"Organisation" might indeed be wrong also - although that's how I would use it in English and Romanian, that doesn't mean it has to work in German too.

So what would you use instead of this funny long word? Can you please provide me with an alternative? I'm basically just trying to say "diversity".

What about: "... einer großen Vielfalt an Strukturen der tiefsten Stimme ..."

But that might not be what a musician might say, as I am quite bad at music-speak. It's all just a mix of frequencies to me
[/QUOTE]

 

[Mirc]

Wow, thanks a lot guys!!! My Aufsatz was accepted (reached its purpose) and the teacher especially appreciated my "flawless German"! I have to say this was quite a surprise for me, although I never should've doubted that, with the help of the great German-speaking CFC community!

Now I need your help again... This is not nearly as important in the grand scheme of things, but somehow I feel like I need to make a perfect impression. So basically, a girl from the German-speaking part of Switzerland invited me to go to her place to watch some British comedies a while ago (like 9 days ago or so), but I never got the chance to actually ask her about it, since I was working like crazy in the past week. Now I need to send her a message on the Internet about it, without sounding like Borat or a psycho, trying to keep a nice and friendly-but-innuendo-ish general tone, but I'm seriously afraid I'm gonna screw it all up. (note: this is not the same girl I mentioned previously in this thread, just in case anyone is wondering )

Anyway, I've been trying to make up a message to send her, but I've only been able to come up with some really crappy ideas. Any help with the wording and phrasing, anyone?

Until now, what I've got sounds like this (yes, it is partially in English, because there are parts that I simply can't express in German without sounding like an idiot):
(the English parts that I need to be translated into German are written in Italic and Bold! I would've just used Italic, but fortune favors the bold, you know )

Spoiler :

Hey GirlName, wie geht’s? Was machst du am Wochenende, bist du in Düsseldorf? Wann machen wir einen Filmabend mit legendären britischen Sketches and stuff? Ich dachte ich hätte noch ziemlich viel Zeit in diesem Monat, um das zweites-Semester Studentenleben in Deutschland zu genießen, aber zu viele Sachen, including dieser stupid Wettbewerb im Mai, an dem ich teilnehmen muss, sind viel zu nah (time-wise) für meinen Geschmack, also ich glaube ich muss das ganze als Hinweis verstehen (?), dass ich alles so bald wie möglich tun soll. Es ist wie eine divine Inspiration, aber ich muss sagen, dass ich kein Problem damit hätte, wenn ich so eine Art divine Inspiration öfter bekommen würde! Ich habe gehofft, das ich dich und die anderen aus unserem Theorieunterricht am Mittwoch treffen würde, aber ich war anscheiend der einzige, dem TheoryTeacherName keine Email geschickt hat... So there goes my chance of meeting you people! Aber I guess dafür ist der Internet erfunden worden, I figured there's no point in waiting until the NEXT theory course, I mean who knows what could happen then! I certainly don't want my university to catch fire because of me wanting to spend some time with some people I know, especially with you! So yeah, let me know! Machs gut!
MyName.

Spoiler if you're a native German speaker wanting to help me express what I'm trying to express, don't read this - I'm just making this translation to please the mods. I've actually thought the whole thing through in German, the problem with the English-language parts is that I just haven't been able to stop them from sounding weird in German - which is the only reason why I used English in there. The English version is actually a translation of the German variant, which is the way the whole idea came to me in the first place. Just sayin'. :

Hey GirlName, how are you? What are you doing this weekend, are you (going to be) in Dusseldorf? When are we gonna do (have?) a movie night with epic British comedy sketches and stuff? I thought I was going to have quite a lot of time to enjoy my second-semester student life in Germany, but way too many things, including this stupid competition in May I have to take part in, are way too close for my taste, so I think I have to take all this as a sign, that I have to do everything as soon as I can! It's like some kind of a divine inspiration, but I have to say that I would have no problem with receiving THIS kind of divine inspiration more often! I hoped to see you and the other people in our theory course on Wednesday, but I was apparently the only one to whom our theory teacher didn't send any email... So there goes my chance of meeting you people! But I guess that's why the Internet was invented, just for this kind of situations... I figured there's no point in waiting until the NEXT theory course, I mean who knows what could happen then! I certainly don't want my university to catch fire because of me wanting to spend some time with some people I know, especially with you! So yeah, let me know! Take care!
MyName!

If I am successful with this girl I promise I'm gonna record myself jumping around a Currywurst screaming "I love CFC-OT" in German (and I'll be forever grateful, of course, but that goes without saying - I mean I'm already forever grateful, I'm not sure how many forevers there are!)!

P.S.: I'm gonna be working the whole day tomorrow (teaching, in German, which is what I've been doing for 2 months now, this being the only reason why I've become pretty fluent in the polite version of this language, but I still sound like a ****** when talking with friends), starting at 13:30 (German time), so if anyone gets online tomorrow (I mean today) morning, do let me know if you have any ideas about my message - otherwise don't worry, I'm going to send it tomorrow night (hope she's not going to any parties to be too drunk to read this).

The above is an after-edit brought to you by Mirc-after-having-gone-to-the-corner-liquor-store Prost!

 

[Dragonlord]

All right, Mirc, here goes! Can't have you getting sexually frustrated, can we? Also, I'm looking forward to seeing you jump around that Currywurst!

I used your text and tried to keep the changes to a minimum, so some of the phrasing is still a bit awkward - it's actually easier to write something from scratch!

Spoiler :

Hey GirlName, wie geht’s? Was machst du am Wochenende, bist du in Düsseldorf? Wann machen wir einen Filmabend mit legendären britischen Sketches und so? Ich dachte, ich hätte noch ziemlich viel Zeit in diesem Monat, um das zweites-Semester Studentenleben in Deutschland zu genießen, aber es stehen in naher Zukunft für meinen Geschmack zu viele Sachen an (unter anderem dieser dämliche Wettbewerb im Mai, an dem ich teilnehmen muss) - also, ich glaube ich muss das Ganze als Hinweis verstehen, dass ich alles so bald wie möglich tun soll. Es ist fast wie eine göttliche Eingebung ... aber ich muss sagen, dass ich kein Problem damit hätte, wenn ich so eine Art göttlicher Eingebung öfter bekommen würde! Ich habe gehofft, das ich dich und die anderen aus unserem Theorieunterricht am Mittwoch treffen würde, aber ich war anscheinend der einzige, dem TheoryTeacherName keine Email geschickt hat... dort geht sie hin, meine Chance euch zu treffen! Aber ich denke, dafür ist das Internet erfunden worden - es macht keinen Sinn, bis zum NÄCHSTEN Theorieunterricht zu warten. Wer weiß, was dann wieder dazwischenkommt? Ich will jedenfalls nicht, daß meine Uni noch abbrennt, weil ich gewisse Leute treffen will, besonders Dich..
Also dann, gib mir Bescheid! Mach's gut!

MyName.

 

[Harvin87]

hehe, I liked the last sentence "besonders dich", way to go don juan!.

Good luck!

 

[Mirc]

Wait wait wait, the Currywurst part is only if I am successful! That was the original condition, you know! Oh and just so I don't forget: All hail Drachenherr! Thanks!

Don't worry about the slightly awkward phrasing, after all, she knows I'm no German, in fact I'm sure it makes it sexier, if that's even possible. I got to try to make this one of the last groups of 3-4 sentences for which I'm asking for help here, but as you guys might have noticed (or not ), the fine nuances of friend-speak are my problem now, so I'm just trying to prevent myself from sounding awkward.

@Harvin: at first I read that last sentence as "besonders dick" ('extraordinarily thick').

 

[Dragonlord]

Wait wait wait, the Currywurst part is only if I am successful! That was the original condition, you know! Oh and just so I don't forget: All hail Drachenherr! Thanks!

Don't worry about the slightly awkward phrasing, after all, she knows I'm no German, in fact I'm sure it makes it sexier, if that's even possible. I got to try to make this one of the last groups of 3-4 sentences for which I'm asking for help here, but as you guys might have noticed (or not ), the fine nuances of friend-speak are my problem now, so I'm just trying to prevent myself from sounding awkward.

@Harvin: at first I read that last sentence as "besonders dick" ('extraordinarily thick').

Keep us posted... I want to see that Currywurst-video...

"besonders dick" I wouldn't sabotage you like that... it would mean 'especially fat', even worse than 'thick'... calling a girl fat would, of course, disqualify you for all time..

Good luck!

 

[Harvin87]

can work somethimes... trust me ... it's also a tactic hehe.