German identity Angst

[jessiecat]

Reconciling yourself to your country's past and your attitude to other countries is something all of us have to do. Both my parents families were involved in WWII with the British and Canadian forces. Their parents also had family who fought and died in WWI. Many of my ancestors died fighting the Germans in both world wars. Several of them died in the Blitz or in France or Italy. One of them was even among the first Allied soldiers to liberate Belsen concentration camp. For many of that generation Germany would always remain the enemy for as long as they lived. But time eventually heals all.
Now my generation of Canadians and British have no dislike of Germans and our children will be even more positive about them. The German people have spent a long time in reconciling the past, just as we have. There's no reason anymore to dwell on the dark side of our shared history. I too would like to thank Thorbal especially for a very humane and thoughtful post. I've learned a lot from this thread. Pity more threads aren't as instructive.

 

[Thorbal]

Thanks again !

One example, quite related to Germany, is the expulsion of Sudeten Germans. Though it wasn't technically a communist crime, the communist party was one of the main instigators (mostly because Sudeten Germans would be the main opponents of their eventual takeover in Czechoslovakia).

There has been no serious discussion about the post-war expulsions and the following period of blatant discrimination against the remaining Germans. When someone tries to provoke a discussion (like Václav Havel, the former president, who tried few times), he is met with a combination of backlash and silence. The top politicans will throw some stupid phrase like "well, it's the past and we shouldn't dig into it" or "It doesn't matter now, the world has changed" and gods forbid if someone from other country mentions it, especially a German.

While the Germans have discussed Holocaust for 50 years and eventually managed to get over it, the nations behind the Iron Curtain had no public discussion at all - the communist regime had suppressed it. This is the root of many tensions which erupted after the Cold War. Poles don't want to hear that they often collaborated with the Nazis in order to persecute the Jews, Czechs don't want to hear that they commited one of the greatest ethnic cleansing in the history of 20th century, Hungarians are in denial of their own participation on the many crimes against minorities and other nations commited during WW2. And collectively they don't know how to deal with their communist past and the crimes they commited against themselves.

I see. I have to admit that I think that the expulsion was perhaps not the correct thing to do. But I also think that Germans are in no position to blame anyone in that regard. I certainly don´t, as well as most others, except for those right-wing loonies. And you know what? I think I can understand the Czech (and Poles etc). I would certainly be a bit eh negatively predisposed towards Germans as well after all what happened. And at least they didn´t burn or gas them outright. The necessary infrastructure was still in place.

And, cynical as it may sound, all these expulsions had a positive effect as well, as some historian said recently (can´t remeber his name right now): they have practically ended the "German question". Why? Since the middle ages and earlier, there were German states, and there were Germans. These two did never fully overlap. German colonies were all over Central and Eastern Europe. This could and was used to lay claims on different territories all the time. Now, as there a very few German "exclaves" left outside of Germany, ethnicity and state overlap. This has had a very stabilizing effect.

It may be hard for me to understand, since I wasnt born in or ever lived in Germany, but my advice to you would be to not get so irritated with WW II/ Nazi documentaries, etc. The US did some pretty bad stuff during the period as well (Atom bombs, Japanese internment camps) but I still watch/ read about these events with great interest.

Yeah, you´re right. I am very interested in all things WWII generally. But when you have the impression that every time you turn on the TV you´ll hear evil Germans evil Germans evil Germans it tends to get on your nerves a bit. Not because it is said that Germans did evil things. That can not be discussed away. What bugs me is that is is very often hinted at that the Germans did that because they did evil things not as Germans but because they were Germans, which are of course bad guys and have ever been. Just look at WWI, Bismarck, the Thirty Years War and the Fall of Atlantis. I´m a bit tired of being called the bad guy nearly every time I visit some other country. It is still relatively widespread. Like I said in another post, I can understand it to a degree. But it gets old a bit because you have to justify yourself all the time.
And the documentaries get increasingly stupid as well. Ten years ago, you´d get a documentary about Hitler, or Speer, or Göring etc. All fine and dandy. But they seemingly ran out of good stuff they could cover. So now we have documentaries like "Hitlers Secretary", "Hitlers Wife" or "Göring´s wife". I´m still waiting for a show about "Hitler´s dog". It has turned into some kind of entertainment industry now.

I agree, I had more case of Eastern Germany and Poland in mind. In the end, we should had dictature for 20 years and after it should be change like in Spain or Chile, but we were already not only in our dictature prison but also in Soviet one.

Hm, but I don´t think that there was a real chance for a single country in the "bloc" to free itself without help from others and while the CCCP lasted.

 

[gangleri2001]

So how should we see modern Germany and how do the Germans see themselves?

The answer: Frankfurt am Main. That city is living some kind of Golden Age since the reunification of the country.

Spoiler :

If you're not inFrankfurt am Main, you're not in Europe.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, in Poland we don't feel ashamed about the explusion of Germans from present-day western Poland.

Then again, I think the general concensus is that we shouldn't feel bad for that - we lost tons of land in the east AND the germans started the war and messed up our country beyond belief anyway.

Having lived in Germany for almost 4 years though, I disagree with the notion that there is no german identity. There is plenty of national identity - there just isn't too much rampant nationalism and talk such as "hey, remember that time we burned warsaw to the ground? *hi5*", as you might see in other countries.

I prefer what Germany did over what Japan did after the war. The Japanese national psyche refused to accept all the Japanese war crimes.. while Germans happily accepted theirs, and got over it, as a nation. As a result the Japanese are still xenophobic as hell, and overly nationalistic. The Germans are accepting, in general, and awesome.

I'll take that over japanese-style xenophobia and head-in-the-sand mentality any day.

Let the germans wave their german flags though. They've earned their right - and their flags aren't really that ugly..

 

[REDY]

Hm, but I don´t think that there was a real chance for a single country in the "bloc" to free itself without help from others and while the CCCP lasted.

I still agree, as are still rotating around so I make summary: Unlike any other state thrown by Yalta conference to Soviet sphere of influence after war we had relatively free elections, Soviet army left and we voted communists. Coup was without fighting, it was resign of democratic(or any non-communist) forces. There is our guilt unlike in other natiions - Eastern Germans, Poles or Hungarians, where was communism forced by soviets. Its question if Soviets had willingness or might to force Czechoslovakia by military way in 1948, the only fact is that they didnt have to. So we werent in eastern bloc only by decision of Powers but also by our choice. In 1968 we already hadnt choice, Soviets should care about world opinions, they already had might to invade and establish puppet from Czechoslovakia. That should be only bloodshed without any results as againist Hitler in march 1939.(september 1938 is more complicated).

I agree with expulsion of Germans generally but its on another thread.

 

[kronic]

The answer: Frankfurt am Main. That city is living some kind of Golden Age since the reunification of the country.

Spoiler :

If you're not inFrankfurt am Main, you're not in Europe.

Then I'd prefer not being in Europe. Frankfurt isn't a nice city, it just happens to be Germany's financial centre. Berlin, Hamburg or Munich are much more the places to be (if you're looking for big cities).

Might comment on the article later. Or not.

 

[RedRalph]

Sure, the Germans have made mistakes in the past, but thats why pencils have erasers.

Germany is great

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Then I'd prefer not being in Europe. Frankfurt isn't a nice city, it just happens to be Germany's financial centre. Berlin, Hamburg or Munich are much more the places to be (if you're looking for big cities).

Might comment on the article later. Or not.

Frankfurt am Main. You'll never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy.

 

[Annex]

RRW what episode is that from?

 

[philippe]

the one where Mister Burns sell his nuclear plant to two germans, and in restructering, the only one who gets laid off is Homer.

 

[gangleri2001]

Then I'd prefer not being in Europe. Frankfurt isn't a nice city, it just happens to be Germany's financial centre. Berlin, Hamburg or Munich are much more the places to be (if you're looking for big cities).

Might comment on the article later. Or not.

WHAAAAAT?! Don't you like Frankfurt?

 

[Riffraff]

WHAAAAAT?! Don't you like Frankfurt?

It's not a very exclusive opinion.

 

[Shekwan]

The answer: Frankfurt am Main. That city is living some kind of Golden Age since the reunification of the country.

Spoiler :

If you're not inFrankfurt am Main, you're not in Europe.

Fancy buildings have nothing to do with what it's like to live in a city.

 

[Elrohir]

Interesting article. From what I've seen, the Germans do seem to be almost...ashamed of being patriotic. Which I think is rather sad. The crimes of the Nazi regime should never be forgotten - but generations later, people shouldn't live forever in shame. I think there's a middle ground between forgetting (Or worse, minimalizing) the past, and perpetual self flagellation.

Also, as a side note, I was at a local Wal-Mart last Wednesday with some friends, looking at Halloween stuff. And in the toy aisle I found, as part of some sort of historical action figure series that included American soldiers, Wehrmacht action figures. It clearly said Wehrmacht on them, had them dressed in the German uniforms of the era, and so on. I wondered if that kind of thing could (Or would) be sold in Germany today.

 

[Gigaz]

Also, as a side note, I was at a local Wal-Mart last Wednesday with some friends, looking at Halloween stuff. And in the toy aisle I found, as part of some sort of historical action figure series that included American soldiers, Wehrmacht action figures. It clearly said Wehrmacht on them, had them dressed in the German uniforms of the era, and so on. I wondered if that kind of thing could (Or would) be sold in Germany today.

I think its not exactly forbidden if they use no nazi signs but I'd expect a huge outcry from medias and politicians. The Halloween horror lies not in the figures but in the Neonazi parents that let their children replay the second world war with a fancier outcome

 

[Elrohir]

I think its not exactly forbidden if they use no nazi signs but I'd expect a huge outcry from medias and politicians. The Halloween horror lies not in the figures but in the Neonazi parents that let their children replay the second world war with a fancier outcome

No, no Nazi signs that I saw, but the tank destroyer had the Balkenkreuz on it. And they weren't part of the Halloween display - they were part of the regular toy aisle. I merely saw them while shopping at Wal-Mart for Halloween stuff.

And that's about what I thought - legal, but controverisal, so not likely to be sold. Which is kind of a shame, really. Actually, now I want to go buy some.

 

[Thorbal]

Wehrmacht action figures ! Great, me wants it !!!1

I guess it´s like Gigaz said. Not forbidden, but highly controversial.
The only thing I know of which comes rather close are those ready-made plastic models of Panzers and airplanes etc which you can glue together if you know what I mean.
Like these

(there we´ve got it again! Germans and cars/airplanes/whatever those are always ok of course)

Now that I think of it... I HAVE indeed seen plastic Wehrmacht toy soldiers in stores, but they are always imported from Italy or Japan and a bit hidden inside the respective store. I guess *action figures* would be a bit over the top, though.

Balkenkreuz is ok, btw (if you mean a cross like that one in the picture above). Still in use.

 

[luiz]

For what is worth, I have a german grandfather and he always says Germany is the best country in Europe and germans are the nicest european people, so he is not very ashamed.

OTOH, he insists that Brazil is better than Germany, always introduces himself as a brazilian native to people who don't know him, and hates his german relatives. So maybe he is somewhat ashamed.

 

[Annex]

For what is worth, I have a german grandfather and he always says Germany is the best country in Europe and germans are the nicest european people, so he is not very ashamed.

Dont forget, Germany makes the best cars. The British are pretty good too. Italy doesnt count

 

[scherbchen]

just to be fair...

while I do suffer from said syndrome I have been treated with fairly, politely, and respectfully (with the exception of one drunk Fin) wherever I have travelled.

To have the German heritage is indeed a weird senation. It becomes even weirder once (and this is a difficult statement to make as a German as it opens so many doors and a chorus of voices inside your head tells you to shut it) you get over it.

"get over it?" you ask. get over it, I say. I might be one of the older German posters on this forum. My dad *yearned* to join the Hitler youth. He is 71 today in 2008. I am not going to do the math for you. I will not tell you stories about how my parents survived bombing raids or how my grandma smacked my dad silly for even mentioning said desire as a wee lad.

I know that I am not responsible for the havoc my country has wreaked upon the world. I know that my parents are not responsible for it. My grandparents made it through WW2 somehow, one side was decidedly anti-Nazi; The other side I have no clue about.

All I will say is that I bear no responsibility for what happened, neither do my parents. I consider myself to be guilt free. Yet I realize that, having been born in this country and having received the benefits of being born here, there is a national debt that is to be paid which comes with all the advantages I have been given at birth. Just as Americans have to attone for slavery and their own genocide, just as Spaniards have to deal with the Franco era, just as the colonnial powers have to deal with seizing land from indigenous people, we have to deal with the sins of our fathers.

No I did not partake in the attrocities. Nor did my parents. This guilt is not mines. I am guilt free. I have no guilt. But the country of which I am a citizen does. This country of which I am a citizen, whose benefits I enjoy, has that guilt. This makes said guilt a part of my heritage, like my language, like (proper) democratic elections, like the desire to avoid war (after having lived through 2 whoppers, as a country, I, luckily, have never even touched a firearm).

I have never commited a crime against humanity in my life. My country, however, has (as did the USA). I am perfectly happy to discuss those crimes. And I am even more happy to discover that a vast amount of people is not hellbent on what my grandparents might have done but is more interested in what *I* think and believe rather than name me a Nazi or a 68er.

German angst 102
PS: I do actually believe that Germans, as a rule, reflect more upon their heritage than just about any other country.
PPS: please, for the love of whatever God you worship... if you cast a German as the evil guy spend the extra buck to get a German to play the part. We have mediocre actors who would do it for free... some guy who had 3 years of German in college? it hurts my ears. yes, I am looking at you "My own worst enemy".