German identity Angst

[Sofista]

Dont forget, Germany makes the best cars. The British are pretty good too. Italy doesnt count

...as motor sports history unquestionably proves. Right.

 

[Annex]

Im just saying Italy is in a league of their own

 

[Winner]

I see. I have to admit that I think that the expulsion was perhaps not the correct thing to do. But I also think that Germans are in no position to blame anyone in that regard. I certainly don´t, as well as most others, except for those right-wing loonies. And you know what? I think I can understand the Czech (and Poles etc). I would certainly be a bit eh negatively predisposed towards Germans as well after all what happened. And at least they didn´t burn or gas them outright. The necessary infrastructure was still in place.

I think it was wrong, for many reasons. Those who collaborated should have been punished (and a lot of Sudeten Germans were indeed very ardent collaborants), the rest should stay. Not much we can do about it now, nobody wants to move back anyway , but my point is that we've never really discussed this. The population is either indifferent or scared, that if we officially renounce the Beneš decrees which legalized the expulsion, it will start an avalanche of restitutions which we simply can't afford (most of German post-WW2 reparations were "paid" in the Sudeten German property).

And, cynical as it may sound, all these expulsions had a positive effect as well, as some historian said recently (can´t remeber his name right now): they have practically ended the "German question". Why? Since the middle ages and earlier, there were German states, and there were Germans. These two did never fully overlap. German colonies were all over Central and Eastern Europe. This could and was used to lay claims on different territories all the time. Now, as there a very few German "exclaves" left outside of Germany, ethnicity and state overlap. This has had a very stabilizing effect.

Oh I agree. It's a bit of a cliché, but German-Czech relations are the best they've been since... I don't know, 1350's? Some say they're the best they've ever been.

On the other hand, when you talk to some old people here, you realize they've never really forgiven any of that what happened in WW2. Their "hatred" was frozen and remained unchanged during the next 40 years of commie rule (and commies were more than happy to use this sentiment to instill suspicion of the West). Fortunately the young people don't care about that, most of them anyway. I guess it's the same as in Germany, where young people don't really think that such an old history is any of their business

 

[Thorbal]

(most of German post-WW2 reparations were "paid" in the Sudeten German property).

I see, didn´t know that. I´ve always wondered why the Czech Republic seemed so moderate in their reparation demands.

Oh I agree. It's a bit of a cliché, but German-Czech relations are the best they've been since... I don't know, 1350's? Some say they're the best they've ever been.
Fortunately the young people don't care about that, most of them anyway. I guess it's the same as in Germany, where young people don't really think that such an old history is any of their business

Agreed!
Perhaps we could invade someone else together next time .
*must stop thinking about invading other countries*

 

[holy king]

Interesting article. From what I've seen, the Germans do seem to be almost...ashamed of being patriotic. Which I think is rather sad.

if any good came from the third reich it was discrediting patriotism forever.

 

[Sui Generis]

if any good came from the third reich it was discrediting patriotism forever.

Nationalism, not patriotism.

Anyway, I don't see how any German could love his or her country. Being responsible for 6 million directly murdered people and millions more in war dead doesn't wash off easily. Maybe the east Germans do, if only because the GDR told its citizens that it was all West Germany's fault(World war's)

 

[holy king]

Nationalism, not patriotism.

patriotism is the emotional manifestation of nationalism.

 

[Sui Generis]

patriotism is the emotional manifestation of nationalism.

Nope, Patriotism can flow into Nationalism, but not the other way around. A nationalist doesn't become patriotic. Being patriotic is a prerequisite for being a nationalist.

The emotional manifestation of nationalism is anger.

 

[Ammar]

Anyway, I don't see how any German could love his or her country. Being responsible for 6 million directly murdered people and millions more in war dead doesn't wash off easily. Maybe the east Germans do, if only because the GDR told its citizens that it was all West Germany's fault(World war's)

Other countries seem to have no problems with that sort of washing. The U.S. for it's time of slavery and eradicating the natives? Or do you blame the Italians for destroying Carthage? The British and Belgians for what they did to some of their colonies?

Germany didn't become disillusioned with nationalism because there is no longer anything to be proud of - Germany became disillusioned because it recognized that what happened was a direct consequence of said nationalism.

 

[Thorbal]

Germany didn't become disillusioned with nationalism because there is no longer anything to be proud of - Germany became disillusioned because it recognized that what happened was a direct consequence of said nationalism.

Exactly. We are not non-"patriotic" because we don´t have anything to be proud of. Patriotism/whatever in itself is a thing where you have to be careful, regardless of country.

 

[holy king]

Nope, Patriotism can flow into Nationalism, but not the other way around. A nationalist doesn't become patriotic. Being patriotic is a prerequisite for being a nationalist.

The emotional manifestation of nationalism is anger.

nationalism is a 19th century ideology about uniting "nations" as political entities under a common banner.
patriotism is it's emotional manifestation within the people who embraced this ideology.

 

[Tank_Guy#3]

Yep, the draft was alive and well in Nazi Germany and most had nothing to do with the Holocaust.

Hell, most Germans didn't even know about the Final Solution.

Draft = supporting atrocity, very obvious connection there . Like everybody that was drafted during Vietnam tried their hardest to go My Lai on everybody they saw.

All the Germans that were alive then that I've met didn't know anything about it. Knowing that people were sent off to a camp somewhere, and knowing there were war crimes being committed are two very separate things.

Ahhh, partially quoting.... and out of context no less..... Big surprise....

 

[Agent327]

I think overall these pages show some of the most sensible discussions I have seen on these forums. Other than mentioning that both me and my mother are born in Germany (Rheinland/Westfalen, to be exact) and that my mother has always been somewhat timid in telling anything concerning the war (but that goes more to my mother's character than what she experienced in those times), I feel I haven't really anything to add. Except perhaps this: I feel my mother has always been sensitive about being German in another, neighbouring, country (post WW II feelings towards Germany obviously not being too friendly in a once occupied country like the Netherlands); her eldest brother was the most decent - and to my mind, most exemplary - German I've ever met. Personally I've always been quite interested in WW II, for the sole reason of it being part of European history - but I do remember being young I always avoided telling people I was born in (West) Germany, preferably just revealing I was born in Stolberg (one of William of Orange's wives was Juliana van Stolberg and it features as a Dutch streetname).

 

[scherbchen]

Nationalism, not patriotism.

Anyway, I don't see how any German could love his or her country. Being responsible for 6 million directly murdered people and millions more in war dead doesn't wash off easily. Maybe the east Germans do, if only because the GDR told its citizens that it was all West Germany's fault(World war's)

eh? is this a bait?

while I personally am not the biggest fan of my country I refuse the notion that something neither I nor my parents (nor my grandparents as far as I can tell) had anything to do with is supposed to dictate how I am to feel.

I have my quarrels with the country where I was born in. I have quarrels with my countries' history. I have no deaths to "wash off", however. Neither can I claim credit for the plethora of good and/or beauty that has come from my country. whether or not I "may" love my country is not something that is subject to your opinion. that much, at least, is a truth I hold to be self-evident.

 

[Agent327]

Anyway, I don't see how any German could love his or her country. Being responsible for 6 million directly murdered people and millions more in war dead doesn't wash off easily. Maybe the east Germans do, if only because the GDR told its citizens that it was all West Germany's fault(World war's)

There was a lot of collaboration involved in the Holocaust, both at home and abroad. Nevertheless, if I may recall a comparison made earlier, Japan never accepted the kind of Wiedergutmachung (translatable, somewhat incorrectly , as 'repairs') that Germany felt obliged to after the restoration of democracy. Also, although there is a neonazist party, nazist symbols are forbidden and it will never gain a foothold in parliament. There can be said more about the subject, but I'll leave it at that.