RedRalph
Deity
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- 20,708
Exactly. Warning the USSR was almost as big a factor in the decision to use them as was the effect they had on Japan.
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Civilization 7 has been announced. For more info please check the forum here .
Give us the ability to Nuke our own lands.
- Thread starter Dominico
- Start date
Exactly. Warning the USSR was almost as big a factor in the decision to use them as was the effect they had on Japan.
dante alighieri
Warlord
Post away. I didn't mean that you were pissing me off, I meant that these discussions usually go down in flames sooner or later. I'd rather not be involved in something like that, so while i respect your opinion is different from mine, if you don't mind leave me out of the debate. I'm done with it.
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
No problem... I honestly don't have any interest in flame wars.... but I do have an interest in rambling on for pages about my opinions.... that's why I am a teacher!! 
dante alighieri
Warlord
My mother was a teacher. You can imagine what I went through when she got on a tear.....
Arlborn
Legendary Noob
- Joined
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Spearthrower: Any chance you are an history teacher? Anyway, tell me your opinion on that; How long until 'the next Cold War'?
By the rate things are going, I would say maybe 30 years? Less? More? Never? We are already in it? We all die before it even happens? Your opinion?
By the rate things are going, I would say maybe 30 years? Less? More? Never? We are already in it? We all die before it even happens? Your opinion?
blitzkrieg1980
Octobrist
If you could drop nukes on vassal land, it would be too easy to prevent them from breaking free. If they got close to the 50% population mark, couldn't you nuke them back into your control? Maybe I'm forgetting how the vassal system works tho.
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
No, I am a Corporate English language teacher (for money) and an Anthropology lecturer (for love!
)... I studied Ancient History to B.A. but have never taught it to anything other than kids! 
As for Cold War... I'm afraid to say that I think we are going to have a Hot War for at least the next 30 years.
There are a lot of forces at play that seem intent on generating hostilities between nations.... and I am not blaming any nation in particular here. All of them appear to be pawns in a wider agenda.
Before I get accused of being a conspiracy theorist, I will leave it there!!
I'll send you some links by PM if you drop me a line.
Gaius Octavius
Deity
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- Jul 28, 2006
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- 4,016
I wouldn't advocate being able to nuke your vassal's cities and units, but only empty plots within their land. In the example I mentioned, I could not nuke the invading enemy because of the 3x3 blast radius, which extended into unoccupied but nonetheless "forbidden" territory.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
Well I'd say
1. Increase the damage of Nukes to 75%-90% population+Buildings, give Bombshelters a chance to cut damage to population+units by 1/2, buildings take full damage
2. Make tacticals only take one tile
The nuking of neutral territory is still questionable because even if there is no improvement there, you get fallout. (the only exception being water tiles) so I think reducing tac nuke damage radius is best.
Possibly allow the dropping of 1 tile Tac nukes on Vassal territory if an enemy unit is there. (Throw in some diplo penalties if you like) [hopefully the -3 'you nuked our territory' will be balanced out by a +3 'our mutual military struggle..']
1. Increase the damage of Nukes to 75%-90% population+Buildings, give Bombshelters a chance to cut damage to population+units by 1/2, buildings take full damage
2. Make tacticals only take one tile
The nuking of neutral territory is still questionable because even if there is no improvement there, you get fallout. (the only exception being water tiles) so I think reducing tac nuke damage radius is best.
Possibly allow the dropping of 1 tile Tac nukes on Vassal territory if an enemy unit is there. (Throw in some diplo penalties if you like) [hopefully the -3 'you nuked our territory' will be balanced out by a +3 'our mutual military struggle..']
jdurg
Warlord
I really think they need to re-do how the nukes are done in this game. If they'd be willing to make a substantial patch that would deal with nukes like I laid out in numerous threads here, it would make them so much more better. (Just search for posts by me in this forum. I posted a couple of times how nukes could be made better).
I am all for being able to nuke anywhere you see fit to, however because of the possible exploits things need to be handled very carefully.
Nuking when a friendly AI unit is within the blast radius problem - This is annoying. Perhaps a diplomatic hit as suggested earlier in the thread is the way to go. Making tactical nukes only target 1 tile, while fitting the description of "tactical", would under power the tactical nukes imo. Considering that once SDI is built, tactical nukes are by far more efficient to use than icbms.
Another idea would be to have the friendly units immune, or to have them auto-moved somewhere, neither of which is very realistic, but you could attribute it to giving them a warning.
If you have good enough relations with the friendly AI in question, you could ask them to stop trading with your nuke target civ, thus canceling open borders and moving their units out of your way, not that it would work for all situations.
On nuking Vassal land - I think we should be able to. However the aforementioned problems with using it to control their population could be a pretty serious exploit. Maybe if you can only nuke where it would Not affect any tile that is workable by a vassal city, or making BFC tiles immune to fallout, both of which have some problems.
Off topic-- The fire bombings of Tokyo that had a substantial percentage of wooden buildings, killed many more people than the Atom bombs did. You can include major euro cities in this as well. More people died from indiscriminate conventional bombs than the nukes.
Nuking when a friendly AI unit is within the blast radius problem - This is annoying. Perhaps a diplomatic hit as suggested earlier in the thread is the way to go. Making tactical nukes only target 1 tile, while fitting the description of "tactical", would under power the tactical nukes imo. Considering that once SDI is built, tactical nukes are by far more efficient to use than icbms.
Another idea would be to have the friendly units immune, or to have them auto-moved somewhere, neither of which is very realistic, but you could attribute it to giving them a warning.
If you have good enough relations with the friendly AI in question, you could ask them to stop trading with your nuke target civ, thus canceling open borders and moving their units out of your way, not that it would work for all situations.
On nuking Vassal land - I think we should be able to. However the aforementioned problems with using it to control their population could be a pretty serious exploit. Maybe if you can only nuke where it would Not affect any tile that is workable by a vassal city, or making BFC tiles immune to fallout, both of which have some problems.
Off topic-- The fire bombings of Tokyo that had a substantial percentage of wooden buildings, killed many more people than the Atom bombs did. You can include major euro cities in this as well. More people died from indiscriminate conventional bombs than the nukes.
What does neither of us being alive then have to do with it?
Protecting their soldiers lives is not tantamount to nuking civilians - that's a strawman.
The US could simply have chosen not to invade Japan thereby saving soldier's lives. Instead, engaged in a war of seclusion, strangling the island and cutting off its acquired territories.
Think a blockade doesnt kill civilians ?
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
Think a blockade doesnt kill civilians ?
No
you are totally right let's put some more sarcastic smileys shall we? Want to back up your statement with facts?
Can you show me where a blockade would cause more civilian deaths than nuking two residential centres?
One more just for fun....
Actually, it's not funny, so apart from being a smart*** would you like to provide a factual support for your counter rather than just chucking out a non-sequiter.
KrikkitTwo
Immortal
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- Apr 3, 2004
- Messages
- 12,418
^ Leningrad, same period
I'm not sure how food sufficient Japan was at that point, but the fact was the idea of entire cities as military targets was well established in WWII. The Nuclear bombs were just a different way to do it.
----------------RETURN TO TOPIC---------------
In any case Tactical nukes would be Great as 1 tile radius if you
1. Extended their range [5 or 6 instead of 4]
2. Made them cheaper (75% cost)[of course nukes in general should be cheaper probably close to 300 for an ICBM, 200 for a Tactical nuke, allowing MAD to make sense]
In that case Tactical nuking of any tile in vassal (or your) territory that had enemy units present should be acceptable.
I'm not sure how food sufficient Japan was at that point, but the fact was the idea of entire cities as military targets was well established in WWII. The Nuclear bombs were just a different way to do it.
----------------RETURN TO TOPIC---------------
In any case Tactical nukes would be Great as 1 tile radius if you
1. Extended their range [5 or 6 instead of 4]
2. Made them cheaper (75% cost)[of course nukes in general should be cheaper probably close to 300 for an ICBM, 200 for a Tactical nuke, allowing MAD to make sense]
In that case Tactical nuking of any tile in vassal (or your) territory that had enemy units present should be acceptable.
Spearthrower
Thrower of spears
Yeah I agree - the Siege of Leningrad was disgusting too.... states that either target civilians or use them as shields are war criminals.
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