GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[maxverve]

mad-bax
nothing to be embarrased about. My fault. I wasn't being very clear. I just needed the ones for civ - I've been using usenet for quite awhile.

Genghis Kahn -
did buy Conquests, figured that out at the store reading the boxes and read your post only afterwards. Haven't installed it, only because the read me advises not to if your still playing a civ3 game and I am and doing to too badly so far. I really hate barbarians, I know you can pick a level but just left at the default.

 

[maxverve]

mad-bax
nothing to be embarrased about. My fault. I wasn't being very clear. I just needed the ones for civ - I've been using usenet for quite awhile.

Genghis Kahn -
did buy Conquests, figured that out at the store reading the boxes and read your post only afterwards. Haven't installed it, only because the read me advises not to if your still playing a civ3 game and I am and doing to too badly so far. I really hate barbarians, I know you can pick a level but just left at the default.

 

[maxverve]

What is BG?

I would move the settler ot the hill east of him and build city better defense. send out the warrior to explore and try to find as many villages as possible to getas many techs and gold as possible. If comes across civ very near try to get rid of them, hoipfully running into barbarians to get to elite asap. Use the quque to line up warrior, worker, then settler. Spearman fortify in city, other warrior fortifies in city until spearman then he goes

Worker would build roads hopefully find any luxury and build road to hit where ever it may be., second worker same. Change the slider to try and get lowest turns to get tech. Start with Bronze age to upgrade to spearman then send out the other warrior exploring. I'd be trying to get 4 warriors, 3 workers and as many settlers as posible.

 

[maxverve]

sorry how do I get rid of the duplicate post

 

[TedJackson]

@maxverve: BG = Bonus Grassland - 2 food, 1 shield, 0 gold (unimproved)

Be wary of moving your Settler unless there is a compelling reason. IF the first move is Worker North to the BG then moving the Settler SW to the hill would put the BG outside the city radius until the first cultural expansion occurs at turn 10.


Ted

 

[maxverve]

If the worker is ouside the city that early in the game, he 'd be building roads and my plan would be to have him build roads from the city anway to as far as he can get. I'd have him build a road back to the city, I think the risk might be worth it because I could move anyone faster on that road, if there is a luxury ouside of the city I'd want to get that and the city expands anyway the next turn or two. I'd be wanting to either send out settlers on the road and/or warriors to attack a civ if close by-sort of trying to plan ahead. What do you think?

 

[TedJackson]

I think it's a bad plan. It's not based on facts but on hope.

You can't really begin to plan until you know more about your surroundings. Looking at the start picture (which is all I have done) it appears there are mainly plains to the South and West which are only 1 food until irrigated so moving in that direction is bad for city growth.

Of course there might be a food bonus there, but it's not worth moving your Settler away from the grasslands to the North on nothing but a whim.

Roads take a non-Industrious Worker 3 turns to complete. Again, you need to know more about your surroundings before you can prioritise which tiles need roads.

What I'm saying is look before you leap


Ted

 

[Turner]

I never said you wouldn't get a settler, I said you wouldn't get a city, because in order to get a city the GH must be on a tile that will support cities.

I haven't looked at my post where I said that (it's on the previous page) but if I said settler, I meant city.

Ted's right. Moving your settler on a whim isn't a good idea. Get an idea of what's around your area first, and if at the end of the turn you don't see a better spot, plant the settler there.

As for mining/roading first, I used to think like shoguntaka, but now I generally road first. It takes 3 turns to road, and 6 turns to mine. So even though the shield production would be better in the begining (and I do agree with that logic) you're going to waste six turns you could be bringing in extra gold.

 

[shoguntaka]

What does GH stand for?

With the Mining/Roading, if you mine first -- you can build scout every 4 turns, not 5 turns.

 

[TedJackson]

Here's a question for the players:

What is the primary objective for this first town?


Ted
p.s. GH = Goody Hut

 

[yoshi74]

lurker's comment:

Seems were on page 10 before actually starting the game

But you're right, these are the basic for a succesful game.

With the Mining/Roading, if you mine first -- you can build scout every 4 turns, not 5 turns.

mining first nets you 3 more shields during the first 10 turns, as opposed to the road first, which nets you 6 commerce. So these 3 shields are 1/3 warrior/scout. Still the question first mine or road is more a matter of taste.

[relurk]

 

[SolarKnight]

I would say that other than to get a few scouts out, the main objective for the capital would be to establish a settler factory if at all possible.

Then to grab as much land as possible with these settler.

 

[maxverve]

Is a settler factory a city that only makes settlers?

Would the primary objective be to have the first city as sort of a base because irrigation, mining, getting more citizens, researhing techs is important and then maybe the second city makes tons of settlers?

 

[shoguntaka]

If there's no food-bonus resource around the capital, then we can't make the capital a settler factory, then we should send out scouts looking for a potential setter factory.

 

[yoshi74]

A settler factory makes primarly settlers, between them can be warrior or spear for protecting the settler. Depends on how much food is generated.

Claiming the land fast is definitely a priority, otherwise the ai's will do.

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by shoguntaka
If there's no food-bonus resource around the capital, then we can't make the capital a settler factory, then we should send out scouts looking for a potential setter factory.

OK, this post is important. Here is my humble opinion... and that's all it is.

You start with three units. The sole job of the settler is to build a city. The sole job of the scout is to explote the map. The worker will be with you the whole game and is the most important unit you have.

You need to decide on the best place to found the city, and you need to decide which tile is the best tile to work. The most valuable tile you can see is the BG, but if there is a food bonus in the fog, it might not be the best tile to work first.

So the order you should move the units is scout worker settler.

You will uncover the maximum number of tiles by moving the scout to the mountain to the north west.

The other thing you can consider is the terrain. What will be north and south of your position?

You start on the junction between grass and plains. so you know that to the north you will have grass and to the south you will have plains and desert most likely.

Some good players will give up their first worker turn in order to see more of the map. This start gives that opportunity. If you move the scout to the mountain and the worker to the hill, you will be able to see a long way along the river. You know you will found cities along this river. If you do this then you know that the worker will not be improving the tile it moves to. It means you will get your first unit a turn later probably, but it may enable you to make some excellent decisions for your first few turns.

The goody hut was just bait. It moves the scout off the river. You will have to wait a long time then to uncover the river. The goody hut is yours, you can pop it at any time in the next 20 turns without worrying about being beaten to it probably.

The contentious decision is whether to move the worker to the tile it will improve, or give up a turn or two in order to see a lot of the map before founding your first city.

There are losts of good ways to play the first turn, but there are losts of bad ways too. Just avoiding the bad ways would be agood start.

 

[yoshi74]

IMO the decision where to move the worker should be done after the scout has moved. When your scout discovers a bonus, and you know an ideal city location be then, using the worker to start improving would be the better idea. I the scout doesn't sees anything usefull, a little additional scouting with the worker(one move before city founding) might help somewhat.

 

[shoguntaka]

My guessings.

Now, I think about this.

If we move the scout first, N and then west, we can reveal A LOT of the grasslands up north. Grasslands offer much better settler factory. I don't think it's worth sending the worker SW to that hill, because it'll reveal just more forests, hills, mountains, and plains. We'll want to move the worker N anyway to more fertile land.

 

[TedJackson]

Originally posted by mad-bax

So the order you should move the units is scout worker settler.

You will uncover the maximum number of tiles by moving the scout to the mountain to the north west.

Some good players will give up their first worker turn in order to see more of the map. This start gives that opportunity. If you move the scout to the mountain and the worker to the hill, you will be able to see a long way along the river. You know you will found cities along this river. If you do this then you know that the worker will not be improving the tile it moves to. It means you will get your first unit a turn later probably, but it may enable you to make some excellent decisions for your first few turns.

The contentious decision is whether to move the worker to the tile it will improve, or give up a turn or two in order to see a lot of the map before founding your first city.

There are losts of good ways to play the first turn, but there are losts of bad ways too. Just avoiding the bad ways would be agood start.

As always in Civ, there is an alternative

It's not necessarily better but it is a bit "Have your cake and eat it too" and it's probably the way I would play this start. The Scout moves SE then S, the Worker moves N. This doesn't reveal as many tiles as mad-bax's opening but it does leave the Worker on the Bonus Grassland. Plan on popping the GH with your 2nd Scout, he'll only take 4 or 5 turns.

In my book the most important thing your starting city needs to do is build a Settler and unless there's a food bonus hidden under the fog it's going to take you 30 turns (ten turns @ +2fpt per pop point) just to get the food to do that as the only surplus food is going to be from the city tile.


Ted

 

[Gengis Khan]

Originally posted by maxverve
mad-bax
nothing to be embarrased about. My fault. I wasn't being very clear. I just needed the ones for civ - I've been using usenet for quite awhile.

Genghis Kahn -
did buy Conquests, figured that out at the store reading the boxes and read your post only afterwards. Haven't installed it, only because the read me advises not to if your still playing a civ3 game and I am and doing to too badly so far. I really hate barbarians, I know you can pick a level but just left at the default.

You don't have to worry about Conquests installing over Civ3, it installs in a sub directory of Civ3 so you can still play "vanilla" games & C3C at the same time. I currently have a couple of each ongoing right now.

Everyone: What research path are you planning? What's your basic research goals, and what techs are you priorizing? After you guys agree, I'll post a bit more info then Shoguntaka can kick it off.