GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[qm1pooh]

How might our troop movements affect the Colossus build, even if we don't immediately attack Kyoto?

If we move on to one of Kyoto's city squares, wouldn't the citizen working that square have to go somewhere else? As our troops cross the choke, they would have to cross the cow square, losing the Japanese 2 shields. Kyoto, however, has a mined grassland they could move the citizen to, which would cause a net loss of 1 shield.

 

[scoutsout]

...they would have to cross the cow square, losing the Japanese 2 shields. Kyoto, however, has a mined grassland they could move the citizen to, which would cause a net loss of 1 shield.

That's it exactly. We can't advance anywhere near Kyoto without denying Tokugawa that cow square on the choke. Normally, I'd say this is a Good Thing, but if we want the Colossus in Kyoto, it's not... Having said all that, I have an idea....I'll post a couple of options I see for campaigns after I play my SGOTM turns tonight.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Sorry guys, brutal day yesterday.

Welcome Misfit & gm1 to our motley crew! I'll get the roster updated today.

Excellent discussion, I'll chime in & post the answer's in an hour or so.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Scout has a good point. If one of your troops are standing on a tile, the citizens of a city cannot work that tile. If you are going to skip Kyoto for the Colossus, you need to plan how to get around the city without disturbing the build.

 

[denyd]

Misfit: Colossus will satisfy the requirements for an Iroquois Golden Age, but taking it will not start the GA. From my expierence, when you capture a Great Wonder you get the credit for the requirement, but until you build a Wonder (any great wonder), the logic for GA kickoff isn't checked.

To word it differently (and better I hope), the GA can only be started by you building a GW and owing GW's that cover your tribes traits.

 

[qm1pooh]

If you are going to skip Kyoto for the Colossus, you need to plan how to get around the city without disturbing the build.

The only way to do that is to get the troops/reinforcements off the cow tile at the choke as quickly as we can to the south, and to stay off the roads. However, by not stationing a sentry at the choke we allow the Japanese to move units over there. A tricky situation all around, I don't know if the Colossus would be worth it.

 

[Mistfit]

@ GK, Thank you and My appoligies up front

@ Denyd Good to know - See I'm Learnin' already

 

[alerum68]

Okay, we've been throwing around reasons to WAIT on taking Kyoto. I'd like some advantanges of not waiting, and just taking Kyoto now. I can't think of one myself, but have many for waiting. At least until we get a message saying they switch builds.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Lets see:
1. it will add many turns & a large risk to our campaign.
2. Collossus that far from our capitol will be mostly corrupt & worthless.
3. Collossus is culture producing, so unless we save that city for dead last, it increases the chance of culture flipping.
4. There is always the chance they change the build.
5. Our troops will be out of position if we decide to follow up our campeign on Toku with an attack on Shaka.

That's off the top of my head, I can probably come up with a couple more. I think #2 is the most significant.

[No worries, and no need to apologise Misfit. I wasn't clear about how many people were joining and had to run out to work before I got a chance to post the welcome.]

 

[denyd]

Maybe I'm the one confused here.

I thought that Colossus added +1 commerce to all cities, not just the city that built it, but I could be wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

 

[scoutsout]

My original thinking was that I was just going to play my turns and see if I couldn't take out Tokugawa before turn 10... but with all this Colossus discussion, I thought I'd throw my plan out there to see if we might want to modify it.

Here's the basic way I had originally planned to play my turns:

Notes:

0a (Turn Zero) Wake some swords, whack the Jap warrior and spear. (I've downloaded the save and looked at it, but have not played any turns...)
0b - change build orders to galleys....
Upgrade several warriors in place, move others where they can be upgraded...

...speaking of upgrades - note to team - handing me a game with large sums of gold and outdated troops is like handing whiskey and car keys to a teenager...don't expect to see either again anytime soon.

...move every forted sword somewhere...

End of pre-flight - revolt.

The map shows the general advance routes for a campaign in which we don't worry about the Colossus build...and the turn (from zero) I'd expect to be on a given square.

Generally - 3-4 swords will be sent south, to deal with that settler pair when they land south of Mauch Chunk. (I'm only about 85% sure that's a settler pair) Send at least 4 swords to Kahnawake for landing at Satsuma, send the rest northward...

There are some other details, but this should give you a general idea....

@Team: How can we modify this plan for a "Capture the Colossus" gambit?

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Denyd is right. It wouldn't be able to add that much culture if it is captured the turn after it is built.

It is highly unlikely that the AI will shift builds, at least in vanilla 1.29. In fact they will only shift builds if someone else builds the Colossus first.

You troops will only be out of position for one turn if you want to continue on with Shaka. Which I would recommend waiting a few turns at a minimum to get things organized.

The point is that the potential commercial boost of the Colossus is huge. Gengis, look at what the Colossus did for us in Go4. Every tile producing commerce gets another gold piece all the way until flight is discovered.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Denyd: Colossus adds 1 commerce to any tile that already produces one in that city, all the way until flight.

Bugsy: I agree they won't shift builds, but there's always a chance. He asked for cons I threw a couple in there. And there is a big difference between what Collossus adds when it's in your capitol, and what it adds when it's in a 90% corrupt city.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Satsuma could have been whipped to produce a warrior or an archer. Typical AI move.

The AI won't settle within two tiles of another city, so I don't think they are trying to poach a city site near by. They may have a settler in a boat, which means you'll have a Japanese city down in Persia.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I'm going to check the civilopedia, but I believe it is every tile producing commerce regardless of where it is.

 

[Mistfit]

I agree with GK and I will add this:

I think the only reason for waiting for the thing to build is if we are planning on a cultural win. If that's what we are looking to do then by all means yes we should wait. Otherwise kill 'em quick and wait to take it from the next poor sap to try and put it in their city.

@ Alerum
I don't believe you would get a message saying "the Japenese are no longer building the Colossus" If the Japanese changed the build I think we'd just have to wait until someone else built it to be notified.

The other thing I just thought of is the fact that we are Assuming that the Japanese are going to be the ones to build the thing in the 1st place. What if the Russians or the Babs or someone on the other continent only has 5 turns to build the thing. We may have wasted 5 to 10 turns for naught.

As I've said before I just don't think that it will be that benificial.

I posted the following in "Quick Answers"

Does anyone know The following:

If I capture the Colossus from a civ that is very far away from my core, will I still receive the one extra comerce per tile that already creates one? or will it be wasted on corruption?

Here's someones opinion I trust - I've never been steered wrong by a "garden Pink"

Dianthus


Quick Answers

The 1g extra is prior to corruption being applied. If your city is 80% corrupt and working 5 tiles which produce 2gpt + 1gpt Colossus bonus (giving 5*3gpt) then you will get 12gpt corruption.

 

[Gengis Khan]

...speaking of upgrades - note to team - handing me a game with large sums of gold and outdated troops is like handing whiskey and car keys to a teenager...don't expect to see either again anytime soon.

So true, at least you aren't going to get alliance happy this time.

Someone spotted it! What I was reffering to with my (admittidly very vague) last question was the fact that we could we could move ships from side to side between Cowtown-the lake-Tokyo. But everyone came up with excellent responces.

 

[alerum68]

Lets count down turns
11) take out warrior 1 n of Kogashima. Move stack on to that spot.
10) Move 1n to be in place to take out Edo.
9) Take out Edo
8) sw
7) sw
6) west (This puts us on the Choke Point with the cow) We're outside of
5)s
4)sw
3)sw
2)s
1) Take Osaka.

At this point it should be built, if not very close to being built. Once we take Osaka we move n 2 tiles, with the troops we leave outside the city so it doesn't flip, and take Kyoto.... now I know why scout doesn't want to do this... he only gets 2 cities in his turns instead of taking it all.

 

[Gengis Khan]

Very true, but that fits right into the splitting the troops question.

 

[alerum68]

hehehe... didn't we talk about those 2 cities being choke/canal cities before Tokyo was even built Gangis? I seem to remember that we did when we were talking about mapping. And as for upgrades... upgrade regular troops to me is kinda of a waste. Let them stay home for MP duty.