scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Now that is exactly the kind of stuff I was hoping to get out of joining this SG. Thanks mad-bax!
GK2- The Training Day Experiment
- Thread starter Gengis Khan
- Start date
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
mad-bax - that was an excellent explanation. Bamspeedy would be proud. 
I was just thinking that I was going to spend a bit of time this morning writing up a settler factory thesis and here is the critical elements already done.
Another key to a settler factory is to have five extra food every turn and it can't be done without a granary. It is also key to watch your shields. You guys should read Bamspeedy's excellent article on the 4-turn settler factory he set up in GOTM 14. Mad-bax, myself and the rest of the team just got the opportunity to duplicate his effort in TJ03B. I am still in awe of his insight to develop this concept. 18 months ago, no one knew about Settler factories and now they are an established and often used strategy.
I think we need to figure out where to send the scout, and then we can make a final decision on the city site.
I know Shogun wants to send the scout N-W to the mountain, and Scout wants to send the scout SE-S. I'd like to hear from the other three soon so we can move on to the next part of the discussion.
I was just thinking that I was going to spend a bit of time this morning writing up a settler factory thesis and here is the critical elements already done.Another key to a settler factory is to have five extra food every turn and it can't be done without a granary. It is also key to watch your shields. You guys should read Bamspeedy's excellent article on the 4-turn settler factory he set up in GOTM 14. Mad-bax, myself and the rest of the team just got the opportunity to duplicate his effort in TJ03B. I am still in awe of his insight to develop this concept. 18 months ago, no one knew about Settler factories and now they are an established and often used strategy.
I think we need to figure out where to send the scout, and then we can make a final decision on the city site.
I know Shogun wants to send the scout N-W to the mountain, and Scout wants to send the scout SE-S. I'd like to hear from the other three soon so we can move on to the next part of the discussion.
- Joined
- Jan 24, 2003
- Messages
- 5,242
All I did was explain in broad terms the size 7 phenomenon that many people fail to grasp. It is disconcerting at first to see growth due in 1 turn and the settler due in 2. Hitting "Next turn" is difficult at first, but you get used to it eventually.
How to set up a settler factory is down to you Bugs with GK. Bamspeedys article is good, but specific to a particular game.
You should go ahead and write your thesis IMO.
How to set up a settler factory is down to you Bugs with GK. Bamspeedys article is good, but specific to a particular game.
You should go ahead and write your thesis IMO.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
As soon as we reveal with which tiles we will have to play, I was planning on a detailed explanation on how to go about the settler factory.
You have given us some great terrain for this discussion mad-bax.
You have given us some great terrain for this discussion mad-bax.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
A protocol question here... are decisions reached by consensus or vote? Or does the player taking the turns simply consider all the advice and make a decision?
I don't feel adamant about the scout move - my opinion is strongest on the worker (build road). I don't play expansionist civs often, so maximizing the use of scouts is something else I hope to take from this experience. It just seems to me that the territory NW of that mountain will be revealed when the borders are established...so sending the scout in a different direction will let us see more sooner.
I, for one, am looking forward to Sir Bugsy's "Settler Factory Thesis". I've read some of Bamspeedy's stuff. The thing that impresses me most about Bamspeedy is that he was good before the War Academy had much in it. Definitely a pioneer of sorts.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
On this initial turn only, we are playing a consensus.
I think Gengis was planning on having each of the students play the first ten turns and post their saves, a detailed turnlog and a screenshot of what they found.
Then we would look at each player's exploration techniques and worker moves. Because the opening moves are so important, we felt it was critical to have each player have an opportunity to play the opening turns. Then the instructors would go over each submission and give some pointers on what was done well and where things could be improved.
When I was a flight instructor we had a saying posted on the wall. "The instructor's job is to help the student learn." With that in mind, you won't ever see any
calls. In fact, I hope that will be the first and only time in this thread that you will see that smiley.
BTW - I don't think I will be able to match Bamspeedy. The way so many of people are able to play the game as well as they can (not that I put myself into that group) is because they are standing on the shoulders of the players who pioneered many of these strategies and techniques. Bamspeedy, cracker, SirPleb, Moonsinger, and a dozen others developed these ideas. This game is just a tool to pass those ideas on.
I think Gengis was planning on having each of the students play the first ten turns and post their saves, a detailed turnlog and a screenshot of what they found.
Then we would look at each player's exploration techniques and worker moves. Because the opening moves are so important, we felt it was critical to have each player have an opportunity to play the opening turns. Then the instructors would go over each submission and give some pointers on what was done well and where things could be improved.
When I was a flight instructor we had a saying posted on the wall. "The instructor's job is to help the student learn." With that in mind, you won't ever see any
calls. In fact, I hope that will be the first and only time in this thread that you will see that smiley.BTW - I don't think I will be able to match Bamspeedy. The way so many of people are able to play the game as well as they can (not that I put myself into that group) is because they are standing on the shoulders of the players who pioneered many of these strategies and techniques. Bamspeedy, cracker, SirPleb, Moonsinger, and a dozen others developed these ideas. This game is just a tool to pass those ideas on.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Well, IRL I actually was a paratrooper of sorts, so before you go poking fun, understand this: I never "jumped out of a 'perfectly good airplane". Every dang one of 'em had a great big ol' hole in the side!
Not really sure I understand the smokin' smiley reference though... and yes, those players you mention are on a different plane. Statistically an abberation I'm sure.
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
I stand by my decision to move the scout onto the northern mountain, IMO it would reveal to us the most land around our start. Also i tend to build three or four scouts to begin with when i play expansionist, and ive found that this way i sometimes get free settlers and cities (though i base this on the lower levels).
My point is that after we build the capital i would set it to scout and get the hut with the second scout while using the first to explore further away from the capital.
This would mean that we would get both north and south uncovered fairly quickly.
My point is that after we build the capital i would set it to scout and get the hut with the second scout while using the first to explore further away from the capital.
This would mean that we would get both north and south uncovered fairly quickly.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
The smoking smiley is often used as a criticism... i.e. - You were smoking weed when you make that decision. Doesn't promote the best learning environment. It is alright if you criticize yourself, but I've never been a fan of calling one of my teammate's decisions weed.
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
We have two for going N-W onto the mountain, SK and Shogun.
No opinion - Our favorite jumper
No opinion - Our favorite jumper
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Since we're going to be playing this SG for a while, I'd like to know a bit more about my "classmates". I don't care so much about skill level as style...and it doesn't really matter, I'm just trying to gain some perspective.
Here are some questions for my compatriots:
How would you describe your style of play? Builder? Warmonger?
What do you tend to seek first, military strength, commerce, production, or science?
Do you have preferred civ traits? (This is not intended to start a 'best civ' sub-thread...)
In warfighting, do you prefer to "blitz" or use a "combined arms" approach?
Do you have a favorite Age?
-----
My answers: I'm a confessed building addict (who doesn't mind occasional bloodshed). I like building every possible improvement in any city that can build it. I seek production first. With shields I can build improvements to enhance my commerce and science and units to defend (or take) cities. As a builder, my preferred civ traits are (in no particular order) Industrious, Scientific, Religious, and Commercial. In early and late wars, I prefer to blitz. In industrial era wars, "combined arms" is key, IMHO. And I love the Industrial Age.
Here are some questions for my compatriots:
How would you describe your style of play? Builder? Warmonger?
What do you tend to seek first, military strength, commerce, production, or science?
Do you have preferred civ traits? (This is not intended to start a 'best civ' sub-thread...)
In warfighting, do you prefer to "blitz" or use a "combined arms" approach?
Do you have a favorite Age?
-----
My answers: I'm a confessed building addict (who doesn't mind occasional bloodshed). I like building every possible improvement in any city that can build it. I seek production first. With shields I can build improvements to enhance my commerce and science and units to defend (or take) cities. As a builder, my preferred civ traits are (in no particular order) Industrious, Scientific, Religious, and Commercial. In early and late wars, I prefer to blitz. In industrial era wars, "combined arms" is key, IMHO. And I love the Industrial Age.
shoguntaka
Warlord
denyd
Emperor
/lurker de-cloaking/
Very interesting thread - lots of important information
My little contribution to the information stew:
Why not move 1 NE and settle there, after turn 11 expansion you'd have 2 BG, the cow and be on the river.
Also knowing where you are on the mini-map might influence which direction the scout should be heading. On a random world the center on the N-S axis is normally the desert/plains terrain and as you move from that line you get more grasslands and finally reach the tundra.
A final point, knowing who the AI are the game could influence the initial tech choice (hint: Why is Japan special??)
/cloak re-engaged/
Very interesting thread - lots of important information
My little contribution to the information stew:
Why not move 1 NE and settle there, after turn 11 expansion you'd have 2 BG, the cow and be on the river.
Also knowing where you are on the mini-map might influence which direction the scout should be heading. On a random world the center on the N-S axis is normally the desert/plains terrain and as you move from that line you get more grasslands and finally reach the tundra.
A final point, knowing who the AI are the game could influence the initial tech choice (hint: Why is Japan special??)
/cloak re-engaged/
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
A good idea Denyd! Here is the map:
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Actually, Settling on the start, moving 1 NW or 1 NE will all give 3 BG (and the cow) after the first border expansion.
NE captures 3 hills & 3 mountains after the first border expansion so it has the best shield potential for later on but at the expense of food now.
Ted
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Exactly Ted! Plus you have the commerce from the river tiles. Mad-bax gave us a very nice start for discussing all these things.
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
How would you describe your style of play? Builder? Warmonger?
I tend to build up peacefully, as far as possible, then once i hit a point where i can't build anymore, or i really need to fight someone, i turn to all out warmonger, turning as many cities as possible over to military.
Once i've finished with the fighting, i then go back to peaceful building. (unless i want a conquest win).
I tend to win by civ - wide culture before i get space race.
What do you tend to seek first, military strength, commerce, production, or science?
First priority i have is to expand as much as possible. I usually try to get as many cities building settlers as possible, and i'm working on getting them all escorted with spears (one of my weaknesses).
Do you have preferred civ traits? (This is not intended to start a 'best civ' sub-thread...)
i tend to go two ways here.
I loved playing with the ottomans and the dutch, the ottomans as they are scientific and industrious, they can develop the land very quickly and can be quite a powerhouse in the science department.
(plus the sipaphi is a great unit).
The dutch are good too, as the agricultural trait helps the early expansion phase a lot and seafaring helps you get a coastal start.
Plus as long as the RNG is on your side, their UU is extremely powerful until nationalism.
In warfighting, do you prefer to "blitz" or use a "combined arms" approach?
I haven't used artillery much, i know i should but most of my warmongering has been through sheer weight of numbers, i've just moved up to regent and so im used to being the biggest, (I have to get used to things being harder from now on, but i love a challenge) so im able to pump out loads of units, mostly cavalry or knights, or if i'm playing china(my first regent conquest) riders.
Do you have a favorite Age?
not sure, it would either be the middle ages or industrial but i haven't had the experience with enough of these eras to know which i like best.
SolarKnight
I tend to build up peacefully, as far as possible, then once i hit a point where i can't build anymore, or i really need to fight someone, i turn to all out warmonger, turning as many cities as possible over to military.
Once i've finished with the fighting, i then go back to peaceful building. (unless i want a conquest win).
I tend to win by civ - wide culture before i get space race.
What do you tend to seek first, military strength, commerce, production, or science?
First priority i have is to expand as much as possible. I usually try to get as many cities building settlers as possible, and i'm working on getting them all escorted with spears (one of my weaknesses).
Do you have preferred civ traits? (This is not intended to start a 'best civ' sub-thread...)
i tend to go two ways here.
I loved playing with the ottomans and the dutch, the ottomans as they are scientific and industrious, they can develop the land very quickly and can be quite a powerhouse in the science department.
(plus the sipaphi is a great unit).
The dutch are good too, as the agricultural trait helps the early expansion phase a lot and seafaring helps you get a coastal start.
Plus as long as the RNG is on your side, their UU is extremely powerful until nationalism.
In warfighting, do you prefer to "blitz" or use a "combined arms" approach?
I haven't used artillery much, i know i should but most of my warmongering has been through sheer weight of numbers, i've just moved up to regent and so im used to being the biggest, (I have to get used to things being harder from now on, but i love a challenge) so im able to pump out loads of units, mostly cavalry or knights, or if i'm playing china(my first regent conquest) riders.
Do you have a favorite Age?
not sure, it would either be the middle ages or industrial but i haven't had the experience with enough of these eras to know which i like best.
SolarKnight
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
@Sir Bugsy: I've written an article on Settler Factories (should be tidied and ready by the weekend) so I'm finding this start interesting
I've played in a lot of SGs with mad-bax so I have a fair idea of how his mind works. I'm sure there are more twists and surprises waiting for the team
Ted
I've played in a lot of SGs with mad-bax so I have a fair idea of how his mind works. I'm sure there are more twists and surprises waiting for the team
Ted
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
Twists and surprises are just what we need for this game. I am hoping for a lot of choices to be made that can take the game in any number of directions. I am hoping to develop critical thinking rather than a rote, standardized way to play. I think if you understand all the options available to you as a player, and how everything interacts, you can become a much better player and have a lot more fun, than if you have a formula: I do A, B, C, and D every time.
TedJackson
Cunning old Celt
Twists and surprises are why Civ has such a high replayability factor. Even in a random game there are any number of what I call "Decision Points" where the course of the game can change dramatically.
SGs encourage position analysis by their stop-go nature. You can't just start playing your turns without looking at the game in detail to see where the previous player has left you.
Stepping back and looking at a game from a "Here I am, where do I want to go from here?" perspective allows players to see the big picture. In solo games it's all too easy to so wrapped up in the action that you can miss the crucial turning point of a game.
I totally agree with your dismissal of formulaic play. It ignores the opportunities available and leads to stagnation and disappointment.
Ted
