GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[scoutsout]

I for one am glad there are so many trainers and advanced players following this thread. Though I can't say I really know anybody here yet, I recently got a glimpse into Ted's mind... and what a brutal, twisted, cunning mind that one can be!

This is going to be fun and beneficial - and I'm looking forward to it in a big way. What else do we need to hammer out? Settler's first move? What else do we need to discuss? (Or do I simply need to let my 'classmates' get a word in edgewise?<g>)

A general question for the more experienced players - how often do you generally move that first settler? Half the time? More? Less?

 

[denyd]

About half the time - more when expansionist, less when not. The more you know about the surrouding territory, the better your analysis can be.

If moving the settler can gain a river/food bonus/luxury/resource after the first level expansion then it's probably worth doing, sometimes you move just to leave the tile you're on (cows/wheat/wines) as the city tile has the same base shield/food value regardless of the terrain. If you can move to a desert tile and make an FP or BG available (FP=Flood Plain BG=Bonus Grass) that's another reason. The trade off is one less turn building and researching.

In general if you can't be sure you'll be improving the situation (I think there might be a cow/wheat over there) then settle in place. I don't think I've ever moved the initial settler twice.

Note: 1CC / 20K goal / GOTM custom setups (2 settlers) are exempt from the above analysis as the are a whole different set of goals to work towards.

 

[T-hawk]

Actually, there's a couple points here that aren't quite correct.

Originally posted by mad-bax
If a town spends a whole turn at size 7 the granary will be emptied.

This isn't true. If a town at size 7 without a granary shrinks, it always loses all the food in the box. If it has a granary, it only loses all food beyond the 10 that the granary holds. This effect is the same regardless of the cause of shrinkage (worker, settler, draft, whip) and regardless of time the city has spent at any size.

It *is* wasteful of food to let a city spend a turn at size 7 before building a settler, but not quite in the way you describe.

The two citizens killed by the governor will not be of your choosing, and it is certain that it will be 2 citizens working grass that will go, leaving the "7th" citizen on the forest.

This also isn't quite right. Whenever a city shrinks for any reason, the governor recalculates the tile/specialist assignment of every citizen from scratch. Usually, this will result in available forests being worked, since the game puts higher priority on forest shields than it would on a +5 food surplus. But technically, the fact that a citizen is set to work a forest after city shrinkage doesn't have anything to do with the auto-pick-for-shields upon growth.

The rest of your post is right on, mad-bax.

 

[scoutsout]

Okay - the only thing all seem to agree on is that some funny things can happen when a city hits size 7. (in Cracker's "Bablylon's Diety Settlers", Cracker cautions "DO NOT GET TO SIZE 7").

A couple of things strike me at this point:

Mad Bax was basing his post on a very specific condition: the city is founded on a Bonus Grassland tile. Mad-Bax, correct me if I'm wrong, but if you put the city on a regular grassland tile, does that change things?

T-hawk - you talk about "spending a full turn at size 7" ... Mad Bax starts with a city that will hit size 7 at the beginning of the next turn, and promply pop out a settler on that next turn... going back to 5, so it never really spends a full turn at size 7... Mad-Bax, am I getting this? It's not real intuitive... I suspect it's one of those thing that when you pull it off, you let loose a "Wow!" then an expletive...

And as for citizens working the forests, it seems to me the governor's stupidity can be negated by paying extra special attention to the city after it pops out a settler...

...and T-hawk, Mad-Bax, et al, please bear in mind, you're dealing with Regent/Monarch level players in a SG, which hasn't been played to the middle of the opening turn (we've figured out where to move the worker! )...and who would probably like to see what both of you are talking about ... demonstrated.

My initial reaction to this is that Mad-Bax and T-hawk are both "right".... and that T-hawk is overlooking a specific condition (city on a BG tile) and that Mad-Bax may want to add a caveat that maybe his trick won't work if the city is settled on something other than a BG tile...

...and please - what constitutes a "full turn" at "size X"?

....Hey Ted - are you enjoying any Byzantine Silks yet?

 

[mad-bax]

Yes T-Hawk is right, and a better player than me to boot. My first post was badly worded as it was rushed. When I was talking about it sometimes being a bad thing to get to size 7 this is what I was talking about, but trying not to get too technical.

But the basic truth is that if you spend a whole turn at size 7 and build a settler to take you to size 5 you will need to fill the granary and the food box in order to grow, and this will mean it takes longer to get the next settler.

Spending a whole turn turn at size 7 simply means that after the interturn, when your first unit is highlighted the city in question is at size 7. You can't remove a couple of bundles of wheat from the foodbox before you hit "next turn" again.

I didn't know about the recalculation mentioned by T-Hawk and it is contrary to what I have read previously, but I believe it, and in any case is not particularly important to you IMO.

The basic point is that because you are running a high food surplus the additional citizen is place to work on a high shield tile rather than a high food tile, so it is safe to assume that a forest will be worked.

You only get the extra shield under the city if you settle on a BG. However, you will always get the extra shields from the added citizen. In my example being "3 shields short of a settler"(TM) if you were on a grass tile you'd be stuffed. But if you were only 2 shields short, the settler would complete.

Once all the trainees have played the opening 40 - 50 turns I'd be happy to play up to the point of getting the settler factory running. Then you can critique me

I'll probably try to select an option not chosen by anyone else just to show something different - even if it is not optimal. After all there is always some guesswork and playing the percentages involved in the opening.

EDIT] Yes, Ted and I have played some great SG's together, and I hope we will play many more. It's never dull with him on your team.

 

[scoutsout]

T-hawk, Mad-Bax - this is pretty cool stuff but ...these are really fine points. I know that extra margin is what you need to get better, but we warlord/regent/monarch level players probably could improve our gameplay with more basic stuff that needs to be done right in order to really benefit from the finer points.

Question for the Jedi masters: When we get to the point that we five apprentices play our opening 10 turns, are we going to do it with the same set of goals in mind, or more of a 'free form' see-how-each-plays it kind of thing?

I'm hoping to finish my current C3C game in the next couple of evenings so I can be good and ready for this SG.

Current game.. Brennus went for Rocketry first, which doesn't make sense to me... I may trade him Fission for Rocketry...my military academy made a nice pre-build for U.N., and trading Fission for Rocketry will reveal to Brennus that he has no Uranium...but Scandanavia does! Nothing like "let's you and him fight while I build my spaceship..." Gawd, I hope I have aluminum.

 

[mad-bax]

Yes they are fine points, and not needed in most games. What is important is the principle of micromanagement, which a settler factory is a prime candidate for. If you can micromanage a settler factory, then you can apply the same principles to city management at any point in the game.

I sense people getting a little impatient, I know I am.

When does everyone get to play their first 20 turns guys?

 

[Gengis Khan]

Just waiting for everyone to chime in with where they want to settle & their projected research path.

You've heard all the advice, pro/cons we can give this early. It's up to you guys. We're just advisors, you are playing the game. Once you 4 come up with a basic gameplan for the first 10/20 turns we'll kick it off.

 

[Rik Meleet]

/delurk
The thing that got me through the monarchy barrier, straight to Deity (PTW) was micromanaging and worker-allocation. If you get the hang of MM and workers you've seen and learned what to pay attention to and when you extrapolate this to other parts of the whole game (trade, city placement, buildqueues, use-of-units etc.) you have improved your game significantly.

Understanding the why in those things is the most important, IMHO; understanding the how is the "easy" part. Mad-bax & T-hawk are explaining the why behind settler-factories. Perhaps it's time for the 3 Musketeers (GK, SirB and Gorm) to test the Trainee's how skills.
/relurk

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I think we'll wait about another eight hours or so for infoman and maxverve to chime in. then we'll move the scout and post a screen shot there. I can't wait to see what mad-bax has hiding for us there.

 

[infoman]

I would move the settler 1 NW to the forest square then found city. It is on the river and will have BG & cow. Send scout to mountain NW to open up as much map as possible. Have town start on scount->warior->scout. Start tech research on CB which s/b cheapest tech and hope some GH's are generous on tech's.



As for Scoutsout's questions, I consider myself more of a builder w/ a small warmonger streak. I tend to use ottomans, persian, & japanese for my games. I do not have a favorite era because I try and use combined arms in fihgting wars.

 

[mad-bax]

I like the Civs with knight replacement UU's personally. India, China and Japan. The Chinese rider is possibly the strongest unit in the game and coupled with the industrious trait makes China the Civ I feel most comfortable with. I guess I'm a warmonger of sorts, since my style is to expand to the domination limit as quickly as possible regardless of the target victory condition. I think the purest win is conquest, but I get most satisfaction out of cultural games for some reason I can't quite fathom.

I love the end of the AA and beginning of the MA. This transition with all the things you can do here is by far the most interesting part of the game for me.

My gameplan always revolves around fast early expansion and terrain improvement. I prioritise cities, population and workers and I usually wait until around 1000BC-500BC depending on difficulty level before I start prolonged military expansion. Lately I have started to use zero research from the beginning and archer rushes for the extra boost in score, and have neglected building any science at all.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Mad-bax - you just like having all those hearts on the victory screen. I personally like it when I get hearts from Joanie.

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by mad-bax
The Chinese rider is possibly the strongest unit in the game

Have you played as the Arabs in C3C yet? In the last game I finished I won a conquest victory with them. The Ansar Warrior is similar to the Chinese Rider. Attacks like a Knight, moves like Cavalry... Expansionist and Religious gives you a couple of different traits to play to. (Militaristic is a little weaker in C3C because you can't rush a Great Wonder with a Great Leader...)

 

[tmarze]

 

[Gengis Khan]

Welcome aboard. Roster is now closed, we will be taking no new players.

tmarze: please try to review the info you've missed. I know there's alot, but it's very helpful. Then feel free to jump right into the conversation, we'll be starting very shortly.


**edit- In responce to scout's questions. **

How would you describe your style of play?- I’m an opportunistic warmonger. Whenever I need more land, lux or resource, techs or money, or simply have too many units burning up my treasury war is on the horizon. In “vanilla” I’d routinely leave a war with a civ ongoing & stagnant the entire game, just for GL fishing(this can be very dangerous though, as they can form an alliance against you at the drop of a hat.)

What do you tend to seek first, military strength, commerce, production, or science? -In the early game, expansion & commerce is power. Once the mid-MAs set in, production become key & remains for the rest of the game.

Do you have preferred civ traits?- I normally go with random, so I will have to adapt my playing style from game to game. However I think that pound for pound in Vanilla Ind, Sci, & Mil can't be beat. In Conquests Ag, Sea, & Sci are very strong(all IMHO of course).

In warfighting, do you prefer to "blitz" or use a "combined arms" approach?-Combined arms though out the entire game.

Do you have a favorite Age? - Ancient can't be beat. Exploring the fog, planning your layout, racing the AI in the landgrab, popping goody huts, shady trading to stay on par with the AI, and wars where the RNG can turn against you quick. The Ancient age sets the stage for the rest of the game, it's by far the best.

 

[tmarze]

is there a chat line
I never been to good at using stratagies for games I just try to play by,reacting to what the situation brings me.
my bad I just turned away and just came back
I think I may need some kind of software for the chat rooms
I just had my computer rebuilt .Not sure what I may need yet
I mean later on after I can defeat the AI on deity frequently

 

[shoguntaka]

This is forum, which is different from typical chat-room. You can go to the chat room, it's at the bottom of the scroll (scroll down all the way, and you'll see the link to Chat Room).

We won't be playing against each others. Instead, we'll be passing turns to each player (10 turns each).

 

[scoutsout]

Originally posted by tmarze
<snip>I do like to learn everything I can before I start playing against you guys.

I admire your gumption to jump into this thing with 9 pages of reading to catch up on!

...Lemme see if I can save you a little reading. You won't be playing against us, you'll be playing with us. We'll be watching each others' moves, analyzing the same situations together. I'll let one of the destructors fill in the blanks...look at the first post or two (where the instructors' names are listed), and read everything they've posted in the thread. There are some other skilled players offering some good commentary - TedJackson is one who comes immediately to mind, but there are several others...

Important - find an article in the War Academy called "Babylon's Diety Settlers" and read it. I believe it's the earliest significant work on the concept of a settler factory. I suspect setting up a settler factory will be an early priority in this game.

 

[Gengis Khan]

for future reference, the edit post button is very helpful when you have a bit more to add. It's in the top right corner of each post.

We're already up to 10 pages, I'd like to keep that number lower so it's easier to scan for key points.

Thanks in advance!