GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[coletite]

Not to beat the dead horse any more, but just to reiterrate:

Getting a leader during Persian war: small

Getting a leader during Persian war with one sitting in a city: 0%

I've been thinking of it in terms of settling the first city: it's OK to move to a better spot, but the longer you wait to settle, the more you are shooting yourself in the foot.

GJ: I'm not sure we need a happiness wonder, but I doubt we have enough right now to keep people content until sanitation. It would be nice to be able to send a few galleys (like 8) full of knights to the other continent and secure another luxury while we build up the population at home.

I'd like to hear Alerum's thoughts on this matter...

[edit] Hey, I just now realized I've made over 100 posts! And they were almost all between here and SGOTM! But mostly here...

 

[DJMGator13]

I wonder if I killed the thread - it's been pretty quiet since I did that turnlog

Not at all. I thinks it's just an end of month, post graduation and release of COTM2. Scout has been busy organizing the Jumpmaster teams, which are set now. So I think it will start picking up again.

Question for the Team:
You only have 4 more ZUL cities to capture, but you only have 8 swords in the theater (1 of which is guarding Nara). You have 3 more swords in Kahnawake, but your galley is 2 turns from completion. The question is do you have enough troops left to capture those 4 cities, or are you going to need reinforcements? And if so how many and from where?

I'm not sure we need a happiness wonder, but I doubt we have enough right now to keep people content until sanitation. It would be nice to be able to send a few galleys (like 8) full of knights to the other continent and secure another luxury while we build up the population at home.

Don't forget you will pick up silks when the PER lands are annexed. Tht will give you 4 luxuries and alot of extras for trading later.

 

[coletite]

True, we have a lot of luxuries, but under a Republic, luxuries are paramount. Our cities may not be very big now, but that is because we have been concentrating on expanding. Yes, we will be able to trade, but since our population will be so much higher, they will cost us an arm and a leg. I would prefer to control as many resources as possible.

 

[DJMGator13]

Yes, we will be able to trade, but since our population will be so much higher, they will cost us an arm and a leg. I would prefer to control as many resources as possible.

The more expensive cost of the luxuries is not based on the population it's based on the AI knowing we already control 4 (counting the silk), so now any further luxury we trade for will be more expensive, and the 6th one will be more expensive than the 5th. I forgot where a read about that. But I'm sure GK, Bugs & Scout can add more insight.

 

[coletite]

I could have sworn that luxury cost was also dependant on the size of your population vs. the size of the AI's population just like ROP is based on the size of your territory vs. the Ai's territory.

Either way, it is cheaper to control the lux then to buy it. Of ourse there are other factors to consider. Most importantly is the units required to take it. Plus there is war weariness, the ability to defend it once you have it, etc. All the more reason I want to know what the other continent has going on ASAP.

[edit] Almost forgot that a questioned was asked earlier about units needed to finish off Zulu. 8 swords MAY be enough, but I kind of doubt it. I blew it on my turns by not sending reinforcements. I don't really like the idea of building more swords. How about this: we are about ready to declare on Persia, so why not send a few MWs over to Zulu? We'll just kick off our GA a few turns early. Of course, we still want to be in Republic for the GA. I think we need to scrap the progress on Feud and switch to Republic if Persia hasn't gotten it yet.

 

[mad-bax]

Hmmm.. there is a thread that I was directed to by ainwood recently. A test was done with luxes which discovered that the trading value of a lux depends on the number of happy faces it will create. It is in fact possible to pillage all your own luxes, buy the lux cheaply and reconnect on the same turn. Whether this is exploitative or not you can discuss...

 

[alerum68]

Never scrap research if you're more then 2 or 3 turns into it. Will be cheaper to just buy it now. Why not have our GA in Feudlism? will actually be better for the war effort to have a Feudalism GA. How far are we away from it again?

 

[DJMGator13]

Why not have our GA in Feudlism? will actually be better for the war effort to have a Feudalism GA. How far are we away from it again?

You are 5 turns from it, but unfortunately this is CivIII not C3C. No Feudalism government type here.

 

[scoutsout]

Hmmm...pillage all your own luxes, buy the lux cheaply and reconnect on the same turn. Whether this is exploitative or not you can discuss...

Hmmm.... using the RBCiv ethic as I understand it... if it feels like an exploit, it probably is. I wouldn't "bet my last shekel" that the RBCiv crowd would label that an exploit. But I'd bet my next-to-last shekel they would!

 

[mad-bax]

.... ah but disconnecting a recource (say iron), building hundreds of warriors and then reconnecting the iron and upgrading is OK in RBCiv... What's the difference?

 

[GJ]

Eight may well be enough swords, provided that whoever is up next (Mistfit?) doesn't have horrible RNG luck.

Bapedi was left with a 2/4 Impi as its strongest defender, so it's almost certainly going to bite the dust. I doubt that Ulundi is very strongly defended, as he just built it. So there aren't four fully-defended cities left; there are more like three fully-defended cities - Isandhlwana, the city "behind" it and closest to Nara, and two half-cities in Bapedi and Ulundi.

We might want to consider razing Zulu towns and rebuilding them ourselves. It's inconvenient, but with only seven or eight swordsmen, it's also easier than waiting to send defensive reinforcements to free up a swordsman from defensive duty.

We should plan on razing Isandhlwana anyway and moving it SW one tile to get the whales.

I don't think Shaka has the resources available to try to build new settlers and resettle the land that we're taking while we're still rolling around in his territory. Once we clear out the Zulu, the old Zulu lands are ours to keep; unless Persia gets creative, no one else (who we care about, anyway) will settle them, so we can afford to send settlers to rebuild cities.

---

Also, my lack of diplo checking was a bad thing after all Xerxes went Middle Ages during my ten turns, I'm not exactly sure when. But since he's scientific, he picked up Monotheism as part of the deal. He won't sell it for anything we've got, either (just checking based on the save at the end of 190 AD).

 

[scoutsout]

.... ah but disconnecting a recource (say iron), building hundreds of warriors and then reconnecting the iron and upgrading is OK in RBCiv... What's the difference?

Because in the disconnect Iron/build warriors/upgrade to swords gambit, you still need to use your empire's other resources (Gold) to pull it off. This is the fundamental difference: there is no "flip-side" or "back end" cost to the lux disconnect trick (like the gold cost of upgrading warriors to swords).

Furthermore, in disconnecting luxuries to make yourself appear "poor" to the AI, you are making a false representation at the negotiating table. In real life, such false representation are described as "Fraud" in certain circumstances.

While I see people engage in borderline fraudulent activity in Real Life all the time (Hey - my work involves real estate in Florida for cryin' out loud) There are often subtle differences between what is "legal" and what is "ethical". This lux disconnect thing is at best dastardly, and at worst unethical. I would be surprised if the RBCiv crowd endorses it.

 

[scoutsout]

Eight may well be enough swords, provided that whoever is up next (Mistfit?) doesn't have horrible RNG luck.

The trick here is to use the eight swords well. If it were my call to make, I would keep them concentrated as best I could.

Also - I don't know where your galleys are, but you might be able to ease your logistics a bit if you have a galley that can shuttle units across the gulf that lies between your productive cities and that former Japanese town that I captured in one of my last acts a student....

I would NOT reposition a galley for that purpose - do this only if one is "handy". Your galleys need to be pushing back the fog right now - in earnest.

 

[GJ]

We have a galley like that, but it's two-thirds of the way to the Zulu continent Another one is due in 2 out of a city with some extra swords in it. We could pay 36 gold and have it right away for Turn 1 of the next set.

I don't know if I'd necessarily rush this galley, but I think it should definitely do a shipment of swords to the west, if only to help deal with Ulundi and then cut south. There's not really a great amount of fog to cut into.

Pulling back the fog of war is a mission for our eastern cities' galleys There are already enough en route to Panama to do a sea-based assault of the eastern half of Persian territory, so new ones should definitely be on exploring duty.

 

[scoutsout]

@GJ: You are exploring and weighing your options - this is a Good Thing. The cost of rushing that galley (36g) sounds pretty cheap to me... what does the team think?

Also - With the X-man in the middle ages, have you guys discussed one of Gengis' favorite research techniques? (that technique being "Pointy-Stick Research")

It sounds like you guys only have a few minor tactical notes to work out before this is ready for the next player to play his turns. I'm going to step back out and see what you guys come up with... work it out among yourselves for the next better player. Let's see what you guys come up with as goals for the next 10.

 

[coletite]

We are only 5 away from Feudalism? For some reason I thought we were a LOT further away... so no scrapping. Republic should still be our next tech, however, and try to get into Republic before attacking Persia.

Can someone let me know what techs Persia has that we don't? Only if it isn't any trouble. I can't imagine he has anything, in which case pointy-stick research wouldn't work.

 

[GJ]

Monotheism, which was his bonus tech when he made the age jump.

Yep, only 5 from Feudalism

 

[coletite]

I didn't know Xerxes had monotheism, that's great! He doesn't have republic does he?

So the question is: do we trade/buy monotheism from him or do we attack until he is willing to give us monotheism in return? Personally, I say we be raging jerks and force monotheism out of him. Then, assuming we have all the units we will need, turn right around and wipe him out. Sure, it's a heck of a rep hit, but so long as he hasn't made contact with anyone else, no one will know Xerxes ever existed!!

 

[Bede]

Because in the disconnect Iron/build warriors/upgrade to swords gambit, you still need to use your empire's other resources (Gold) to pull it off. This is the fundamental difference: there is no "flip-side" or "back end" cost to the lux disconnect trick (like the gold cost of upgrading warriors to swords).

Furthermore, in disconnecting luxuries to make yourself appear "poor" to the AI, you are making a false representation at the negotiating table. In real life, such false representation are described as "Fraud" in certain circumstances.

While I see people engage in borderline fraudulent activity in Real Life all the time (Hey - my work involves real estate in Florida for cryin' out loud) There are often subtle differences between what is "legal" and what is "ethical". This lux disconnect thing is at best dastardly, and at worst unethical. I would be surprised if the RBCiv crowd endorses it.

Whether the "disconnect" is unethical, fradulent, dastardly, or dishonorable becomes moot when you consider the alternative of trading away a resource or lux. It accomplishes the same thing, but does it in a way that enhances the long term position rather than merely seeking a short term advantage which I have found often dissipates like fog under the morning sun. See the discussion of "Legal's Mate" above, a really fine example of short term advantage leading to disaster.

 

[GJ]

@coletite: No, no republic I checked the trade opportunities as well but he won't even put a deal on the table for Monotheism. ("It can't be done.")

Guess this means we're beating it out of him