scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
...and that's probably the difference between a diety level player (you) and Regent/Monarch level players (us). We're not worried about happiness right from the get-go!
GK2- The Training Day Experiment
- Thread starter Gengis Khan
- Start date
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
When you get to the higher levels you get more and more happiness penalty. At Chieftain you get something like three content citizens automatically. At Diety no one is happy. I'm sure some lurker will correct this, cause I know it is wrong. The point is that it is very important to check your citizens EVERY TURN. I will cycle through each city screen at the end of every turn or just check F1 if I think that the cities are being managed correctly. Why at the end? Because if you are in a government that allows the MPs to promote happiness, you might have moved your Military Police out of town and now your people will be unhappy.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
...but at this level we ought to be able to use the slider as long as our capitol is size 4-6... which would be enough to keep the settler pump going until we get some cities making units, right?
Not only that; it's best to check out all other civs (F4 screen) as well, every turn. Trade and relations are so important and opportunities do arise, but usually only for 1 turn that in order to get the maximum out of your empire you need to do this. That means talk to all leaders at the beginning of every turn.
Why the beginning ?
Well, it is possible a luxury just appeared due to some expired AI <-> AI trade deal. If you can get it, that will stop you from rushing a temple, reorganise your buildqueues and change your war-planning.
yoshi74
Tourist from Mars
Actually even on deity you have one content citizin (like on emporer). And yes, above monarch luxeries can become an obsession. In my current game (large archipology, england, emporer) i had one lux at all on my rather big continent with 2 opponents. Was barely able to build sistines, otherwise the lux slider would drained my money. Wasn't able to trade for lux till astronomy 
. This way you really learn to value luxery resources. No i set up some colonies (one coastel city with a resources close by) on other continents. Currently have a oil and a dyes colony 
. Really feels like england, although quite late (currently in the modern age, start building space ship soon)
. This way you really learn to value luxery resources. No i set up some colonies (one coastel city with a resources close by) on other continents. Currently have a oil and a dyes colony . Really feels like england, although quite late (currently in the modern age, start building space ship soon)
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
Ill play my turns tonight, (hopefully) although i have a mountain of coursework to do.
If i don't post up my turns then please skip me.
Apologies in advance.
SolarKnight
If i don't post up my turns then please skip me.
Apologies in advance.
SolarKnight
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Nah, we've waited this long, another day or three is no biggie. Deal with the coursework. I wouldn't mind seeing us play a few rounds this weekend though...
Brewster
stays crunchy in milk
/delurk/
Informative thread here. It took me three days to get through the first 17 pages of disussion and strategy, but it was well worth it. If I could find my Vanilla Civ3 disk (and about 20 hours a week) I'd be joining in, but as it is, I will continue to follow along and try to give my point of view on various topics.
You've got a good start and mad-bax has produced an intriguing map with many possibillities. With regaurds to the upcomming worker actions, I'd try to get the Wines online as soon as possible (increase happiness and gpt) before working any more BG.
You have Incense in sight as well as Dyes to the far south so happiness shouldn't be an issue once you get up and running. With city placement, I tend to go for a tight (but not ICS) build with the geography and resources playing a huge part in city location.
Good luck.
/back to lurking/
Informative thread here. It took me three days to get through the first 17 pages of disussion and strategy, but it was well worth it. If I could find my Vanilla Civ3 disk (and about 20 hours a week) I'd be joining in, but as it is, I will continue to follow along and try to give my point of view on various topics.
You've got a good start and mad-bax has produced an intriguing map with many possibillities. With regaurds to the upcomming worker actions, I'd try to get the Wines online as soon as possible (increase happiness and gpt) before working any more BG.
You have Incense in sight as well as Dyes to the far south so happiness shouldn't be an issue once you get up and running. With city placement, I tend to go for a tight (but not ICS) build with the geography and resources playing a huge part in city location.
Good luck.
/back to lurking/
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Since SolarKnight hasn't played his turns yet, I was wondering if maybe we can squeeze in another discussion before he does...My thinking here started with "What if he wants to finish that 3rd Scout?"
Would rushing (or short-rushing) get us back on the same sort of timeline for granary completion as if we switched the queue from Scout to Granary?
I'm okay at rushing/short rushing with cash, but I tend to be reluctant to break out the ol' whip. Would some of the more experienced players care to point some things out here?
Would rushing (or short-rushing) get us back on the same sort of timeline for granary completion as if we switched the queue from Scout to Granary?
I'm okay at rushing/short rushing with cash, but I tend to be reluctant to break out the ol' whip. Would some of the more experienced players care to point some things out here?
Sir Bugsy
Civ.D.
I would be very hesitant to break out the whip this early.
Reason 1: you need population and trading population for shields will only be a short term gain.
Reason 2: Unhappiness... Keeping your people happy will require a higher lux slider, thus reducing your income and your ability to negotiate for techs.
Population = power at this stage. Population will generate food, shields, and gold. The more pop, the more of all three. Later on there will be plenty of time for the whip, but not now.
As a playing style, I rarely use the whip. Usually only in extremis. For example: I am at war and will lose a city without another defender. I would whip the defender.
Hopefully, solarknight will get the game back soon.
Reason 1: you need population and trading population for shields will only be a short term gain.
Reason 2: Unhappiness... Keeping your people happy will require a higher lux slider, thus reducing your income and your ability to negotiate for techs.
Population = power at this stage. Population will generate food, shields, and gold. The more pop, the more of all three. Later on there will be plenty of time for the whip, but not now.
As a playing style, I rarely use the whip. Usually only in extremis. For example: I am at war and will lose a city without another defender. I would whip the defender.
Hopefully, solarknight will get the game back soon.
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
Im playing my turns now everyone, sorry for the delay.
my University likes to throw as many assignments as possible at you all at once.
my University likes to throw as many assignments as possible at you all at once.
Gengis Khan
Deity
I'd have to echo Bugsy's advice, while happiness probably won't be a problem in the early game(once we get the wines hooked up that is), we'll have the production for a settler factory long before we hit the pop recuirement.
I break out the whip occasionally, but not often:
1. Like bugsy said, if I'm at war & need an extra defender on the double.
2. I'll whip a temple, or market if I need a quick border expansion or have happiness problems(and more then 3 lux's). While it won't solve the problem the improvement will offset the unhappiness whipping caused
3. If I have a flood plain city with 0 production tiles, and can't get any workers down there for a while. I'll set it for max growth and whip whatever is needed.
I break out the whip occasionally, but not often:
1. Like bugsy said, if I'm at war & need an extra defender on the double.
2. I'll whip a temple, or market if I need a quick border expansion or have happiness problems(and more then 3 lux's). While it won't solve the problem the improvement will offset the unhappiness whipping caused
3. If I have a flood plain city with 0 production tiles, and can't get any workers down there for a while. I'll set it for max growth and whip whatever is needed.
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
Pre Turn: Seems we have no science research, thats not something i really feel comfortable with, ill see how long it would take to get bronze working at max, if only for defence against barbarians and other civs if they show up. (That and the fact i've read stories of players self researching on emperor and above).
Set to Bronze at max, due in 16.
Leave capital building scout for now.
Hit Enter.
Turn 1 3450 BC: Salamanca: Scout -> Granary
Borders Expand.
New Scout W -> S.
Southern Scout pops hut, we get Warrior Code.
Northern Scout Moves south towards the fog.
Turn 2 3400 BC: Worker SW to BG square
New Scout S.
South Scout W.
North Scout S -> W.
Turn 3 3350 BC: North Scout NW -> W.
Worker Builds Road.
New Scout SW -> S
South Scout SE.
Turn 4 3300 BC: New Scout SW -> W.
South Scout E.
North Scout NW -> NW, spot Green Border, Going by the knowledge of the opponents we have, i would guess thats japan.
Turn 5 3250 BC: North Scout N.
New Scout E -> E.
South Scout S.
Turn 6 3200 BC: South Scout SE to reveal large jungle.
New Scout E -> NE.
Worker builds mine.
North Scout N.
Make contact with Japan, they have the wheel, but are behind Pottery, Mysticism and Warrior code. Looks like a small island they are on, but the fog makes it impossible to tell, im guessing by the looks of the mp, we are either a continents or a pelago, ive never seen a pangea with so much water, which increases the likelyhood of them bing on a small island.
Turn 7 3150 BC: North Scout SE then S.
I drop the science slider 1 step so we dont lose any more money.
But i then increase the lux by 1 as the city is about to grow (and i can't remember how many content citizens you get on Monarch)
New Scout NW -> North.
South Scout S.
Turn 8 3100 BC: Drop lux again as there is one warrior in salamanca and its providing MP, sorry ive been caught with that one before, and didnt want to be caught again.
South scout South, looks like our land mass is coming to an end.
New Scout N -> NW.
North Scout S -> SW, the japs iland is bigger than it looks.
Turn 9 3050 BC: North Scout SE then E.
New Scout N then NE.
South Scout E, looks like there is a little more land here.
Turn 10 3000 BC: South Scout E.
New Scout NW.
North Scout S then S.
Looks like we got the short straw for the neighbour, if they get iron in the moddle ages, then we need to be VERY careful of japan, unless we can get them to become very friendly with us, which is possible. I tried to explore as much as possible, im a little more convinced that the research was a good thing now i know we have neighbours, especially militaristic neighbours. There is no land left to explore to the north on our island, but there is a little more to the south, though how much is left i'm not too sure. The scout near our city is heading to the fog in the east.
I got a start on the granary, and the development of the capital, hopefully we can get the settler factory online before we see japanese cities on our island.. Sorry about the lux slider, i was just a bit more careful than normal as i normally get riots this early on due to me not concentrating.
Good Luck to the next player!
SolarKnight.
Set to Bronze at max, due in 16.
Leave capital building scout for now.
Hit Enter.
Turn 1 3450 BC: Salamanca: Scout -> Granary
Borders Expand.
New Scout W -> S.
Southern Scout pops hut, we get Warrior Code.
Northern Scout Moves south towards the fog.
Turn 2 3400 BC: Worker SW to BG square
New Scout S.
South Scout W.
North Scout S -> W.
Turn 3 3350 BC: North Scout NW -> W.
Worker Builds Road.
New Scout SW -> S
South Scout SE.
Turn 4 3300 BC: New Scout SW -> W.
South Scout E.
North Scout NW -> NW, spot Green Border, Going by the knowledge of the opponents we have, i would guess thats japan.
Turn 5 3250 BC: North Scout N.
New Scout E -> E.
South Scout S.
Turn 6 3200 BC: South Scout SE to reveal large jungle.
New Scout E -> NE.
Worker builds mine.
North Scout N.
Make contact with Japan, they have the wheel, but are behind Pottery, Mysticism and Warrior code. Looks like a small island they are on, but the fog makes it impossible to tell, im guessing by the looks of the mp, we are either a continents or a pelago, ive never seen a pangea with so much water, which increases the likelyhood of them bing on a small island.
Turn 7 3150 BC: North Scout SE then S.
I drop the science slider 1 step so we dont lose any more money.
But i then increase the lux by 1 as the city is about to grow (and i can't remember how many content citizens you get on Monarch
)New Scout NW -> North.
South Scout S.
Turn 8 3100 BC: Drop lux again as there is one warrior in salamanca and its providing MP, sorry ive been caught with that one before, and didnt want to be caught again.
South scout South, looks like our land mass is coming to an end.
New Scout N -> NW.
North Scout S -> SW, the japs iland is bigger than it looks.
Turn 9 3050 BC: North Scout SE then E.
New Scout N then NE.
South Scout E, looks like there is a little more land here.
Turn 10 3000 BC: South Scout E.
New Scout NW.
North Scout S then S.
Looks like we got the short straw for the neighbour, if they get iron in the moddle ages, then we need to be VERY careful of japan, unless we can get them to become very friendly with us, which is possible. I tried to explore as much as possible, im a little more convinced that the research was a good thing now i know we have neighbours, especially militaristic neighbours. There is no land left to explore to the north on our island, but there is a little more to the south, though how much is left i'm not too sure. The scout near our city is heading to the fog in the east.
I got a start on the granary, and the development of the capital, hopefully we can get the settler factory online before we see japanese cities on our island.. Sorry about the lux slider, i was just a bit more careful than normal as i normally get riots this early on due to me not concentrating.
Good Luck to the next player!
SolarKnight.
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
barbslinger
Gun blast'n shot drinker
Thats a pretty looking choke point up there.
/lurk
/lurk
Gengis Khan
Deity
......and down there.
Looking good, I'll replay the save shortly.
Looking good, I'll replay the save shortly.
scoutsout
Minstrel Boy
Looks like a pretty good round of turns there SK 
And it looks like we're in fair shape on the Granary!
Green borders.... in the words of Bill the Cat: ACK!
At least it's Japan and not Persia... maybe we can trade 'em for The Wheel...(which we need)...
I've been doing a litte ripping around with the hardware in my machine tonight
...so I can't look at the savegame just yet...but I played with your screencap, and made some notes.
1) This little finger of land sticking out here, is this what you saw when you wrote in your log "...the japs iland is bigger than it looks."? I'm gonna come back to #1 here in a minute...though it looks like there might be a land bridge there under the civilopedia button...
2) ...looks like the logical direction to take this scout...
3) ...looks like the logical direction to take that scout... and if nothing's there...
4) I don't actually see coast here. I'm about to digress...
<begin digression>
Military reconaissance orders (real ones) usually contain the phrase "confirm or deny". Believe it or not, that "denial" is as important a part of that mission statement as the "confirm" part. Imagine this: You're a field commander, and you send recon teams A (left flank), B (right flank), and C (center) to "go find the bad guys." (Scouts - out!)
Scenario #1: After 2 days, nobody calls me back on the radio... on the third day, my center gets hammered by the enemy. When 2 of my teams come back I ask "Why didn't you report?!??!" and they say "There was nothing to report, sir."
Scenario #2: After a day, Team A calls on the radio and says "nothin' here, boss". Team B calls and says "No hay nadie aqui, el jefe". Nothing heard at all from team C... hmmm...gee, I wonder where the bad guys might be?
<end digression>
Note to Infoman with respect to #4: If you run out of land in direction #3, Puh-leeze go check out what appears to be a dead-end at note #4...to (dare I say it) confirm or deny whether there's anything over there...
Okay...like I promised... back to #1: Here's one thing that we can still do a little differently. Instead of bumping the Japanes border and backing off...why not send that northerly scout through the Japanese territory? My guess is that Tokugawa will get irate for a turn or two, maybe tell us to get our units out... but we then go out the other side (...the bear went over the mountain...)
By doing that, we will see one of 2 things: 1) how much room Tokugawa has to grow before he starts heading our way and 2) whether there might be somebody else over there...
Now - without further ado - my annotated version of SolarKnight's screencap:
And it looks like we're in fair shape on the Granary!Green borders.... in the words of Bill the Cat: ACK!
At least it's Japan and not Persia... maybe we can trade 'em for The Wheel...(which we need)...I've been doing a litte ripping around with the hardware in my machine tonight
...so I can't look at the savegame just yet...but I played with your screencap, and made some notes. 1) This little finger of land sticking out here, is this what you saw when you wrote in your log "...the japs iland is bigger than it looks."? I'm gonna come back to #1 here in a minute...though it looks like there might be a land bridge there under the civilopedia button...
2) ...looks like the logical direction to take this scout...
3) ...looks like the logical direction to take that scout... and if nothing's there...
4) I don't actually see coast here. I'm about to digress...
<begin digression>
Military reconaissance orders (real ones) usually contain the phrase "confirm or deny". Believe it or not, that "denial" is as important a part of that mission statement as the "confirm" part. Imagine this: You're a field commander, and you send recon teams A (left flank), B (right flank), and C (center) to "go find the bad guys." (Scouts - out!)
Scenario #1: After 2 days, nobody calls me back on the radio... on the third day, my center gets hammered by the enemy. When 2 of my teams come back I ask "Why didn't you report?!??!" and they say "There was nothing to report, sir."
Scenario #2: After a day, Team A calls on the radio and says "nothin' here, boss". Team B calls and says "No hay nadie aqui, el jefe". Nothing heard at all from team C... hmmm...gee, I wonder where the bad guys might be?
<end digression>
Note to Infoman with respect to #4: If you run out of land in direction #3, Puh-leeze go check out what appears to be a dead-end at note #4...to (dare I say it) confirm or deny whether there's anything over there...
Okay...like I promised... back to #1: Here's one thing that we can still do a little differently. Instead of bumping the Japanes border and backing off...why not send that northerly scout through the Japanese territory? My guess is that Tokugawa will get irate for a turn or two, maybe tell us to get our units out... but we then go out the other side (...the bear went over the mountain...)
By doing that, we will see one of 2 things: 1) how much room Tokugawa has to grow before he starts heading our way and 2) whether there might be somebody else over there...
Now - without further ado - my annotated version of SolarKnight's screencap:
yoshi74
Tourist from Mars
Some thoughts on SolarKnights turns:
1. Self Research on BW. ??? Usually its easy to trade for every tier 1 techs. Researching BW at yourself is worse than science 0% / (in which case you get more money). By the time you researched it, most people you met eighter have it from the start or traded to it or researched it byself (because its an quite importent tech to the ai).
Normally you should research the tree up (tier 2->tier 3) and trade for everything else. Self research on monarch/emporer is possible, but this doesn't mean by any way to research EVERYTHING by self! Instead research key techs, which allow to trade and stay this way at least on tech par. Also you don't need to early Spears. They cost the double of a warrior(in terms of production), so for a spear you can get a warrior and a worker or two warrior, which are better against barbs(since you have more), as good for MP and take up much less production time.
Early war may come, but normally not this early when you already think about your second or third city.
2. Missed trading opportunity with japan. In the early game trade as much as possible on the first contact. Don't wait a couple of turns. Its not said the japannese are alone on up there. One or two turns later they might meet someone else and your trading opportunity is gone! When you can trade a tech for tech thats great so early. Even trading 2 techs for 1 is often o.k. The other civs will get them really fast in no time anyway. And the saving on research is huge in the early game with one tech less. Self research on higher levels in the AA means to research 2-3 valueable techs and trade for nearly everything else. Trading is the single most importent thing to get tech parity (or even a tech lead) at the end of the AA.
Hope thing doen't sound too harsh, but this are matters which make or break a game usually
1. Self Research on BW. ??? Usually its easy to trade for every tier 1 techs. Researching BW at yourself is worse than science 0% / (in which case you get more money). By the time you researched it, most people you met eighter have it from the start or traded to it or researched it byself (because its an quite importent tech to the ai).
Normally you should research the tree up (tier 2->tier 3) and trade for everything else. Self research on monarch/emporer is possible, but this doesn't mean by any way to research EVERYTHING by self! Instead research key techs, which allow to trade and stay this way at least on tech par. Also you don't need to early Spears. They cost the double of a warrior(in terms of production), so for a spear you can get a warrior and a worker or two warrior, which are better against barbs(since you have more), as good for MP and take up much less production time.
Early war may come, but normally not this early when you already think about your second or third city.
2. Missed trading opportunity with japan. In the early game trade as much as possible on the first contact. Don't wait a couple of turns. Its not said the japannese are alone on up there. One or two turns later they might meet someone else and your trading opportunity is gone! When you can trade a tech for tech thats great so early. Even trading 2 techs for 1 is often o.k. The other civs will get them really fast in no time anyway. And the saving on research is huge in the early game with one tech less. Self research on higher levels in the AA means to research 2-3 valueable techs and trade for nearly everything else. Trading is the single most importent thing to get tech parity (or even a tech lead) at the end of the AA.
Hope thing doen't sound too harsh, but this are matters which make or break a game usually
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
That doesn't sound harsh yoshi, its just i haven't played a single game without self researching anything, i guess old habits die hard, as for japan, that was probably a result of playing at 1 in the morning
SolarKnight
Guardian of the Balance
There was no way i could send the scout through the japanese territory as far as i remember, it was seperated by sea.
That is what i meant though by being bigger than it looks.
That is what i meant though by being bigger than it looks.
