GK2- The Training Day Experiment

Why should we build the GL when we're so close to Carvels? The extra movement point? I just don't understand how this will do anything for us in the long term. I'm just trying to understand what you think we'll get out of this, besides that 1 extra movement point? Again, we're not that far from Carvels.

Yeah yeah I know... I know... "murelA!"
 
My major beef with the Lighthouse is, paradoxically, that we haven't found the other continent yet.

It's something like Alerum pointed out (there, got that taken care of): what if it turns out that there are 6+ ocean squares in our path to the other continent? Then the Lighthouse will only have been useful as a means of exploration; it won't help us with the transfer of units. Between that and the fact that we get its major benefit halfway up the MA tech tree anyway...I'd still rather be sending out suicide galleys until I had a better idea what was going on.

The Lighthouse certainly has its uses, but I don't want us to be caught wishing we had built something else - Hanging Gardens, an army, whatever - later on. So I'm still going for hanging on to that leader, storming Gordium and Susa, and throwing the FP up there ASAP.

(Edit: I cross-posted so my Alerum mention didn't even matter. Darn!)
 
[Once again leaving the lurking position in which I usually am]
I believe that the AI might cascade from one wonder to one it is already building if the city in which the recently built wonder was previously being built would build the other wonder faster, or has produced more shields, or something like that. I am not sure, but I think I have seen messages saying the civilizations are building all available wonders after one has been built. I have insufficient information to analyze whether either city might cascade if you rushed one of the wonders, and I don't feel like looking for it. Of course, if you rush a wonder, another AI might cascade to the other wonder. However, it is not certain whether Persia would complete either of the wonders first. Just my ramblings about cascades.
[Returning to my comfortable, noncommital location among those lurking and not participating more actively in the activity in this active thread]
 
alerum68 said:
Vote:
alerum68- FP
coletite – use immediately FP in Zulu or Japan or Wonder
GJ - save for FP in Persia
qm1- MIA (at sea?)
Mistfit- Rush something...anything
SolarKnight

Misfit posted that vote count, but that still doesn't change the fact that I'm eating falafal without tahini sauce, and it just doesn't feel natural.
I have no idea what Alerum was having for dinner when he posted this, but as someone who will eat anything that won't eat me first (and some things that would try) I am loathe to criticize Alerum's eating habits. Quick! Somebody gimme some mudbugs and fried gator-tail.... :drool:

It seems that there is a consensus, and at the same time a lack of consensus on what to do with the leader. One thing is clear: you guys don't want to build an army with this leader. "Q" is out-of-pocket, and SK has had ample opportunity to weigh in. Coletite seems a bit undecided...but FP is on his short list. Alerum says "FP", but not where. GJ wants a FP in Persia.

So, to borrow a line from a song that was probably written before some of you were born:

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

Next better player: Take the leader, and plant him in the capitol. Forget he exists for the next ten turns. I have inherited SGs with a leader fortified in the capitol. It's not a game-breaker if you don't use him right now. For that matter, it wouldn't be a game-breaker if you'd never gotten the leader in the first place. Leaders, like wonders, are "gravy". It's time to get back to the meat.

From this point, I give the team 2 options:

1) Discuss any tactics, strategy, or builds not related to the leader.

2) Play the next ten turns, and give Bugsy and Gengis something to shadow.

@Bugs, Gengis: If this appears mutinous, my apologies. It's just that... well... it's a game. And games are meant to be played.
 
@Scout - You got it.

@team - anyone want to say anything special about the Zulu offensive? I'm thinking of just swinging straight through their territory and cutting back to Ulundi last. I doubt it's going anywhere, and since he just settled it, it's not going to be an absolute fortress.

If you object to this plan, speak now or forever hold your peace - because I want to play it tomorrow :)
 
Alerum: What do you mean by close to carravels? Don't they come with magnetism or navigation or astronomy? I can't remember which one, but its a late MA tech. We are just starting on our first MA tech. Carrevels are a long way off still.

GJ: True, there MAY be way to many ocean squares to get to the other continent, but I don't think that is likely. That would be a LOT of space between us.

[edit] Sorry Scout, had to step away while I was typying and ended up cross-posting.
 
@Coletite: Astronomy is the tech that gives you Caravels, and the ability to trade across sea squares. It's at worst a mid-middle ages tech.

One thing you guys need to understand - Mad-Bax carefully constructed this map. In spite of his recent top 10 posting in a GOTM - he is a much better player than he likes to let on. The map itself is intended to teach.

If you look way, way, way back in the turnlogs, you'll find a point that I came across a green border. And shortly after that, I said "At least it isn't Pesia".

No kiddin'.

My guess: There are some techniques for scouting with galleys that (if you apply them right) will let you find the other continent. Without the Great Lighthouse.

Look at how Bugsy was telling you guys to move galleys.
 
@Scout: Right now I've only got one galley to play with anyway, so... :)

I am writing my preflight as we speak and will start turns tomorrow. Hopefully they will be done by day's end.

(Edit: All done! Turns start tomorrow. I'll try to take screenshots and make it interesting for y'all :))
 
scoutsout said:
I have no idea what Alerum was having for dinner when he posted this, but as someone who will eat anything that won't eat me first (and some things that would try) I am loathe to criticize Alerum's eating habits. Quick! Somebody gimme some mudbugs and fried gator-tail.... :drool:

I've picked up some very very strage eating habits... let's just say that Tahini is not something you find very much in the western hemisphere.:p

scoutsout said:
Coletite seems a bit undecided...but FP is on his short list. Alerum says "FP", but not where. GJ wants a FP in Persia.

Oh but I did say Scout.... that's part of the problem of making such long post, people sometimes skip over the "unimportant" parts.;) Susa is where I've always wanted to build the FP. That's in the Persian homeland... all most in the middle.

scoutsout said:
Next better player: Take the leader, and plant him in the capitol. Forget he exists for the next ten turns. I have inherited SGs with a leader fortified in the capitol. It's not a game-breaker if you don't use him right now. For that matter, it wouldn't be a game-breaker if you'd never gotten the leader in the first place. Leaders, like wonders, are "gravy". It's time to get back to the meat.
In the last DGIT game, we had a S!!!GL sitting in our capitol for about 50 turns just because we didn't have anything worth using him on... but when Hoovers Dam became an option.... hehehe... needless to say production went up a bit after that. It won't hurt us to wait in this case.

scoutsout said:
From this point, I give the team 2 options:

1) Discuss any tactics, strategy, or builds not related to the leader.

I aggree. This has gone on for long enough.:p

scoutsout said:
2) Play the next ten turns, and give Bugsy and Gengis something to shadow.

AMEN BROTHER! Let the games begin so I can go back to smoking my "peace" pipe.;) :nono:
 
Also if you park the Leader, try not to fight using your elites, as someone else posted earlier. This would be a good time to promote up those newly created MW. I few of which were built in cities w/o barracks There are some Regular MW's in the city near PER.
 
Ok, in the interest of team prodcutivity I would like to reach a consensus (as opposed to utilizing avoidance strategies that are generally ineffective, no offense Scout!) and agree to hold on to the leader, take Susa ASAP and rush FP. I may not agree 100%, but I agree enough that I am willing to go along with it. It is, however, nice to see that we are avoiding groupthink. Remember, conflict can be productive! (I am an MBA student currently studying Organizational Developement. More precisely, I have been doing a lot of work on team dynamics.)
 
coletite said:
It is, however, nice to see that we are avoiding groupthink.
With GK and Bugs running this thing, that was never a risk. They would have reined you in long before the Bay of Pigs. (I went to grad school too. :p )

A far greater risk in this game is the "Hawthorne Effect". So... my challenge now:

For the next ten turns, forget about the fact that you are being observed. If you make a mistake, so what?!?!?! A big... no... a BIG part of this game is understanding the fact that you can bounce back from mistakes.

Time to play the game. :D
 
Suggestions for the next 20 turns of play, and sorry it does involve the leader.... I have a fairly clear idea of what we need to do, and how we need to do it. I'm looking at the save as it stands now, (okay, it's in Conquest because I dont want to change disk)

First we need to build galleys in the following cities:
Akwesane: Should be changed ASAP, and kept on galleys. is a perfect 6 turn factory.

Tyendenga: It's size 5, and even at size 6, which it won't reach for a while doesn't need a marketplace. a temple or library would be better to build in this city, but it's a 5 turn galley factory.

St Regis: Doesn't need an aquaduct yet... not the best land to it. It has a barracks, and is close to Persia. Should be making MW.

Panama: Should be making galleys to launch on Gordium. We can either try and get to Susa by land, or by sea, and sea is ALOT quicker.


Kahnawake: This is where we should launch our Zulu assults from. Is much quicker then using land... will take 4 turns to reach the first zulu city by sea... 9 turns by land.

We need more units in Zululand if we really want to fight them. We only have 5 units there, and we don't have any on the way. In fact, I can see us lossing some cities if we don't start sending more units to the west.

We have waaay to many cities building infra, and not enough military... we have MORE then enough MW to take on Persia... but not enough units in Zululand... we NEED to build swordsman and sent them to Shaka, unless we plan on sending MW and trigging our GA....

Switching to republic 2 turns before we declare on Persia. This will allow our MW to have one of the most commercial goverments during our GA... but we have to make it a quick war, or else WW will drive us down.

Any city that is not pop 8 or higher doesn't need a marketplace right now... we need units more then anything... the cities that are on our western half should build swordsman for Shaka, and the eastern half should build MW. WE DON'T NEED ALL THESE BUILDS!

Battle plans for Persia:
Hurry 4 galleys in Panama. Let them build for 1 or 2 turns, and then rush them... is cheaper this way.
Load up 8 MW into those galleys and send them towards Gordium. This should take about the same amount of time as building some swordsman and sending them toward shaka. We'll have to use galleys to bring them over as well... speed is the name of Republic based wars... hit hard and quick, and make their cities your cities.
We have 15 or so MW already waiting in Panama, and the choke point is held in 3 different places. Nothing will reach us this way.

I think we should go to war with them as soon as we have the galleys built, and bring our leader there. 4 galleys will take 7 turns about the same time to get our leader there. At that point we can load up 7 MW, and the leader and land near gordium... that should be enough to take Gordium as well as Susa, and hold at least Susa. We can then build our FP within 15 turns. It will take us about another 10 turns to take all but the outlying cities of Persia... I think Shaka may be a bit tougher then we're thinking though... mainly because we don't have enough units.

Battle plans for shaka:
kahnawake needs to build galleys to get units over their quicker. I believe we have 1 on there now.

The core cities should be making swordsman, and sending them to Kahnawake. I think we should swap Kahnawake and Panama between rushes... rush in one city, then build in another, then rush in the second, and build in the first... keep using that pattern and we'll be able to rush the galleys much cheaper then if we did it on the first turn, and we'll be able to have 4 galleys per a leaders turn this way... and we need galleys for exploration as well as warfare.

We need to starve down the zulu cities to help keep our cities free of foreign influence, especially if we're going to Republic.

our quickest and best bet is to farey galleys from Kahnawae to Hlobane, and use that as a launching point... we won't loose any movement points, and we have a road going right to the middle of the zulu lands.... but to do this, we'll need more then the 5 swords we have left over from attacking Japan.... even if we're facing just archers, we're only defending with spears.

We should preform this in a vertical slash taking first Mponde and ending in Intombe. 4 swords, that should come from Kahnawake can be sent to Ulundi to take them out about the same time as Isandhiwana is ours, leaving Intombe to fall like a rotten apple from the tree.

I think we may have a sea lane near Nara, but all the cities we have there are pretty corrupt so we'll have to send galleys from the east coast around the north to explore. We still need to work on the east as well, but I believe Nara is the way to go to find the other contient.

I think I covered everything I picked up from the save... just way to many marketplaces being build, and not enough military... we need swords!
 
I'll get to the turns in a short while. I think we had more than five swordsmen nearby (I'm pretty sure it was closer to eight) but I share your concern about the limited number of units. I'll use my best judgment on those builds.

Ugh, I wanted to kill something and now it looks like I might be building up for the next player instead. Oh well, I'll give it whatever's necessary.

I doubt the Persia assault will start on my 10. I want to clean out Zulu and make a government switch before starting to attack there.
 
Wow... I looked at the save last night and wrote up my suggestions as to what I thought best for the next 10-15 turns but now that I have read Alerums very thourough write up I cam shorten mine to one sentence.

Ditto what alerum said.
 
Alerum68 said:
Battle plans for Persia:
Hurry 4 galleys in Panama. Let them build for 1 or 2 turns, and then rush them... is cheaper this way.
Load up 8 MW into those galleys and send them towards Gordium. This should take about the same amount of time as building some swordsman and sending them toward shaka. We'll have to use galleys to bring them over as well... speed is the name of Republic based wars... hit hard and quick, and make their cities your cities.
We have 15 or so MW already waiting in Panama, and the choke point is held in 3 different places. Nothing will reach us this way.

I think we should go to war with them as soon as we have the galleys built, and bring our leader there. 4 galleys will take 7 turns about the same time to get our leader there. At that point we can load up 7 MW, and the leader and land near gordium... that should be enough to take Gordium as well as Susa, and hold at least Susa. We can then build our FP within 15 turns. It will take us about another 10 turns to take all but the outlying cities of Persia... I think Shaka may be a bit tougher then we're thinking though... mainly because we don't have enough units.

I like the plan, especially the use of the GL to rush FP in a War-zone. When completed it will make those new cities instantly productive as well as lowering the flip chance. A problem with the switch to Republic is that we do not know that tech yet.

As for the execution of the plan it seems like we forgot about 2 important items we discussed earlier. 1) I think you only need 1 or 2 galleys with spears to pillage the iron on second turn of war (1st turn land them), eliminating PER ability to make new Immortals. 2) Skirmishing with faster/weaker units. Our MW are 3/1/2, that 1 in defense will not survive very long even on a mountain. Without an RoP rape which we do not want to use, those MW will have to land and be exposed to one turn of counterattacks by 4/2/1 Immortals before every getting a chance to fight.

Why not combine both of these tactics: Pillage & Skirmish. Issue a Declaration of War, with no units in PER territory (reduces the rep hit) then land some sacrifical spears to pillage the iron and distract PER counter-attack. Then capture Sidon on turn 1, use the scout to pillage any roads S or SW of Sidon and create your Immortal killing field as in the GK2.1 exercise. Once the initial wave of Immortals are disbursed you can easily capture the rest of PER lands.

Here is a visual of it.

TDG10AD02.jpg
 
Playing turns now. Good point on not knowing Republic yet...I'm going to keep on the Feudalism path for now though. We can rush at Republic right after if we think that's necessary.

(Edit: Forget it, we're going feudalism for my turnset. Deal with it. :p)

The Zulu situation sucks, I hope I can salvage it.
 
GJ - Yes the Zulu situation sucks, but it is not lost and if you use the skills you have learned I think you will do quite well. Realize the number of losses that Shaka has taken and you are probably seeing his last gasp. Soon he will turtle and then he is dead meat.
 
It went a lot better when he started doing stupid things. I think we will have him by the throat very soon.

(Edit: progress report: 5 turns played. no Zulu cities taken yet, that might be a task for the "next better player." But the means are certainly there. We are successfully building up MWs and galleys in Panama for the Persia assault.)

(Edit 2: Help! Help! It's the Killer Impi!)
 
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