GK2- The Training Day Experiment

JackRules said:
Guys,

I'm wondering what Mod or utility you use to get the Civ name to display with each city name on the map. I always loose track of what Civs own which cities. Thanks. :confused:

JackRules

Go to your preferences and turn on the color blind help, That is what adds the names. Very handy when playing with civs of similar color.
 
So.... if someone doesn't post a turnlog soon then I will, and I promise you won't want to play from where I leave it :evil: :joke:

Perhaps a skip might be in order since it doesn't take a lot for the impetus to disappear in a TDG - and this one is probably the best ever (despite the map ;) not because of it).
 
Thanks, Gator for the info.

mad-bax, I hope you can get these guys back on track; otherwise, I might have to actually do some work for a change!
 
Ok I got it, sorry, was waiting for someone to say it was my turn, my bad.
 
@SK: I think Bugsy was going to post some comments or something. Don't feel bad about this. With Gengis taking a haitus and Bugsy being a pretty busy guy ... it's not your fault.
 
Scout is exactly right. It is my fault this has slowed down. I need to finish up my eval of Alerum's turns. :spank:
 
Do you want me to wait for the eval before I make my moves bugsy?
 
Hi,

I have now read all 1,887 posts to this thread. :crazyeye: After the first 20 turns I played the scenario on my own up to 710 AD (kind of a baseline for comparison). I then shadowed almost every turn of the turnsets so the instructor comments would make sense. This has taken a decent portion of the past 17 days. :coffee:

So, for now, a thank you to all who have played, commented, and otherwise contributed to this thread. I've been playing Civ since the days of Civ1 on a black-and-white Mac, but my thinking about the game has probably changed the most in the past 2 weeks. (The other serious game-changing period for me was reading the tiny Advanced Strategy Guide for Civ2 - I got pretty good at Civ2, but the transition to 3 has been harder.) This thread has been very helpful. Please do continue it.

I took a lot of notes while reading those 1,887 posts. As my contribution to the thread I will write a post compiling many of the "little things" I learned along the way. Maybe that will help centralize a few tidbits for someone else who reads the thread. I will also post a list of outstanding questions I haven't yet been able to answer - this may help others since I'm pretty sure I didn't see the answers here yet. I may end up writing something about my current strategic thinking about the game.

If anyone has time on their hands while the next turn sets are commented and played here, I'd be interested in any feedback you may have on my attempt at the GK2.1 Tactical Exercise 1 (mentioned in this thread a while back). I posted a fairly detailed explanation of what I did and my results. That thread is Here and my 2 posts are at the bottom of the page.

Thanks.
Now time for some :sleep:
 
@SwedishChef: Welcome! :thumbsup: This game has helped me a lot as well.

@Sir Bugsy: :bump: Any chance you could get those comments on Alerum's turns posted in time for SK to play the next 10 sometime this weekend? :mischief:
SwedishChef said:
As my contribution to the thread I will write a post compiling many of the "little things" I learned along the way. ... I will also post a list of outstanding questions I haven't yet been able to answer - this may help others since I'm pretty sure I didn't see the answers here yet. I may end up writing something about my current strategic thinking about the game.
I like the idea - especially the questions. RFHolloway did something similar in this thread. Check that out.
 
Welcome Swedishchef :wavey:

We also have the GK2.2 exercise on trading that is very useful. Helps demonstrate the value of contatcs and trading yourself into the Middle Ages.
 
Bugsy, seems you're going to be to busy to post a anaylis anytime soon. Would it be possible for a general direction for the next 10 turns be laid down, and go ahead and keep playing? We're looking at 2 weeks now, and I do want to finish this game.;)
 
@Alerum: I'm inclined to agree, it's time to move this forward.

@SolarKnight: If you're ready, go ahead and play 10. If this bothers anybody they can be bothered by me.

My advice: Do the mop-up military operations, and try to capitalize on the GA to get some useful builds going in the cities. Scroll through the cities and see which ones need some terrain improvements, and try to get that going.

@Sir Bugsy: Sorry if I'm out of line here... but we need to keep memories fresh here...
 
Ok, thanks scout, will have the turns up asap.

:D
 
I'm sorry guys. Alerum's log was 14 pages long in Word. I have been plowing through it, but it is taking me forever. I will just post some general observations.
 
We need some ideas from trainers, lurkers, and team members on a way to post a turn log that shows the important aspects for training, but that doesn't include ever single movement made. I even did 10-turn or less goto orders to help, but as you said was 14 pages... imagine playing AND writing it.:p There needs to be a better way.
 
@Bugs & Scout
How about using a more generalized strategic approach for each turn. Emphasize the “WHY” something is being done not necessarily the “HOW”. I would still provide battle detail when attacking a city and/or a large stack of enemy units. I would also recommend using the why on city builds and of course detail all trades & contacts.

Here is an example (added somethings to my Bugs2.0 turnlog):

Turn2 - 670AD
Mugla builds sipahi => settler (for cow area near Carthage)
Lux to 30% due to WW
Troop moves: move 14 MW, 8 Spears & 5 cats towards PER city of Arbela

Battle for CART city of Hadrumetum
vSip vrs rNM - flawless vic no promo
vSip vrs rNM - flawless defeat
eSip vrs rNM - we redline but retreat inflict 1 hp of damage (at least 2 defenders left and I only have 1 more Sip in reserve so I'll wait to land the 2 sips from galley next turn)

IBT - KOR building Newtons

Turn3 - 680AD
TRADE: Buy ToG, MAG & Tmap from PORT for Spices, Tmap, 2091gold & 19gpt
we enter Industrial Age and get Nationalism - since KOR & BYZ already have it I decide to trade it to PORT (who has our 2000 gold)
TRADE: sell Nationalism to PORT for gems, ivory, ECONOMICS, MUSIC THEORY, Wmap & 835 of our gold back

Battle for Hadrumetum (continues)
vSip vrs rNM - flawless vic
eSip vrs rNM - vic (down 1hp no promo) capture a worker & city - set to harbor (for food)
did not need the 2 sips from galley because city was captured – sent them back to mainland

Battle for CART city of Rusaddir
vSip vrs rNM - vic (-1hp no promo)
vSip vrs rNM - vic (-2hp no promo) - captures city - sets to library (for cultural expansion)
CART went bye-bye

Troop moves: 14MV, 8 spears & 5 cats arrive on hill NW of Arbela - ready for battle next turn
 
Turn 0
We have 30 cities, and 33 workers, with about another 15 cities about to come on-line. Our one worker factory was Niagara Falls, and it's now making a marketplace at size 7. Waste 1 shield, and switch it back over.

MM Grand River to slow growth. Have to swap a tile with Caughnawaga, which causes it to freeze at size 6, but it needs an aqueduct anyway, and we seem to be on a marketplace kick even though they're not the most useful right now for us.

Persia is up Monotheism. Research by the blade...

Add Temple to Tokyo queue.

We had a spear on some workers, but I send him south into Panama. We have 1 turn of warning to move our workers out of harms way, and they finish next turn anyway.


1. I would have spent some money and rush the market, then got back to the worker factory. You are absolutely right about needing workers, but you don’t seem to be convinced about the power of markets. They will pay for themselves with the increased tax income alone. If you add in the fact that you won’t need to use the lux slider as much and the cash flow benefits are huge.
2. The tile swapping is incredibly important. With a tight build like you have now you can take advantage of extra shields or food and gain a turn or two of production or grown by swapping tiles around.
3. If you are going to research by the blade, you’re going to have to have a peace treaty. That means you leave Persia alive for another 20 turns. I doubt the tech will be worth it.
4. Putting builds in a queue usually isn’t cool in a SG.
5. Good headwork freeing up the spear.

IBT 1&2
St Regist MW -> Temple - We could use the fish


Good headwork. With cheap temples, the easy boarder expansions are well worth the investment.

I really liked the way you kept the leader in a galley to use for the FP build in Susa.

IBT 2&3
Feudalism comes in. Set Research to monotheism at min


First, I’m glad you’ve given up on pointy stick research. But, I’m not quite sure what the thinking is here. You are in a Golden Age, you are ahead of everyone else in tech. What are you going to do with the cash you save? I suppose you could rush some builds, but knowledge is power. I suppose this is an area we have been negligent in. This is my preference, but I try to use a GA to strengthen my economy and infrastructure, and make some serious strides in science. Do I have markets in all my cities? If not I try to build them during a GA. Do I have courts in corrupt outlying cities? Another thing that will really help. If I’m going for a cultural win, I start cranking out the cultural buildings. In the situation that you guys are in right now you could start building some libraries to set yourselves up for some serious research.

TURN 5
MM Kagoshima so it's working the BG I mined a few turns ago :rollseyes: to give it another shield... that's lost to corruption. Great....


This is one of the drawbacks of monarchy IMHO. Much more corruption.

IBT turn 5 & 6
Persian Immortal attacks our MW left in the open and kills him. Immortal is redlined.


This is a GA for Persia. Another reason no to let them live.


IBT 6&7
Cattar...err... Cow City Marketplace - > Library... was debating over that or cathedral, but once we get Persian silks we'll have +2 happy from luxury and this will increase science.


Exactly right! That market helps in many ways.

One observation on your attacks on the cities. (Gordium is the one I’m looking at right now) Try and save your elite attacks until a victory is a sure thing. You use your two elites early, while your second to last attack is with a reg sword. I would have lead off with the regulars and used the elites on a wounded unit. Granted 5hp v. 3 hp are pretty good odds, but 5hp v. 1 hp is better. If you haven’t read Sir Pleb’s article on leader farming, it is well worth your time.

I just realized that you still have a leader. Different rant. I still would have kept the elites for last, but for a different reason. I would have lead off my attacks with vets in order to optimize promotions. You don’t want to use your elites unless you have to.

Turn 9 (310AD)
Turn research up max to get chiv in 4. After that, we need to switch to Theo which I've already queue up. Keep science on max. Let's just hope the AI doesn't beat us to it... I'm nervous enough about Sun Tzu's now.

Build an Embassy in Moscow. It Appears that they're building Sun Tzu somewhere else... maybe we still have a chance.
Build an Embassy in France. Again it's in another city where they're building Sun-Tzus.


Now we’re talking! In this situation I would skip Chivalry and bee-line for Mil Tradition.

Good headwork starting a pre-build for the Sistine Chapel.

You can find out what city they’re building in at F7.

I have a settler on autopilot going to the most choice spot left in the old Zulu lands.

Keep a close eye on trading new techs... always trade with France first or she'll get it from the GL... if you have to trade with her second, that's fine just do it on the same turn.


At least you let the next player know.

Excellent advice in dealing with France.

Overall your tactics were very sound and well executed. A sound campaign strategy and good use of terrain.

I’m going to try and show a comparison of your pre- and post-FP civilizations.

I would skip any further military builds during the GA. Persia is gassed, and you will need Astronomy (at a minimum) before you can prosecute a war on the other continent. You need to build harbors and ships. All other shields need to be plowed into infrastructure. It's time to shift into builder mode for the next 20-30 turns...

Scout and Bede will excel here.

Also time to start thinking about logistics. Logistics will be the key to winning your next war.
 
@ The Team - I like Gator's recommendation for reporting turn logs. Let's do that. 14 pages was a huge amount to wade though. I appreciate Alerum's hard work in documenting it. It was a lot of work to read it as well. Plus the RNG got off and changed a lot of things. Good thing I had the turn 5 save to look at also.

Another idea is to sav the game like at turn 3, turn 7 , and at the end. Then we could evaluate the beginning, middle and end more efficently.

Bede get the next turn log. :mischief:
 
Hi,

Now that I'm caught up, I thought I'd pose some of the questions that I've come up with while reading this (very educational) thread.

  • I don't mean this one to sound overly harsh, but do you think some of you might have a slightly unhealthy fixation on veteran units, perhaps - in the VERY early game? Now, I've played with the combat calculator, and I understand, for example, that a regular swordsman vs. a fortified regular spearman in a town with no walls (on a grassland) has only a 55% chance of victory, and that his odds increase to 70% if he's a veteran. But in the VERY early game there was a lot of discussion of, "ugh, regular units..." back when the 30 shields it would take to create that barracks could also produce 3 warriors. I'd rather have 4 regular warriors than 1 veteran. Or 5 regular warrios than 2 veterans. All of which could have been upgraded to swordsman during "the great iron sword distribution" - there was PLENTY of money).
    -
  • On a related note, why the aversion to upgrading regulars? Again, if I have the money, I'd really like to have more troops. Now if it's a question of having enough money to only upgrade 1 of every 2 troops, then I agree - go for the vets, and perhaps the elites, but if you've got the cash...
    -
  • I saw a post that said, “If our unit is in their territory when we declare war it will hurt our reputation,” I didn’t know that. How does this work? (Explanation or pointer to article would be great...)
    -
  • I saw no mention in the trading discussion so far of deliberately paying more than the minimal possible price for something in order to build goodwill. I had read somewher that’s how it worked - you could always negotiate to pay less in a deal, but whenever you paid more than the minimum the additional value you paid translated into “goodwill.” Am I mistaken? Or did you just not care to develop good will? Now that you have contact with the other continent, I figured you'd be working on who to ally with and who you'll eventually attack, and that spending a few extra gold on goodwill now could pay off in the long run.
    -
  • Nobody mentioned Japan’s growing culture early in the game – an oversight or you didn’t care? In my own parallel-play of the scenario, when I took the capital it flipped back to them 1 or 2 turns later, and I lost 3 swords. Their #2 city was just to the SW I think and their cultural borders overlapped many of Kyotto's workable squares. Bad luck, perhaps, but it slowed my campaign to have to retake it, and cost me 3 swords as well.
    -
  • I saw a note in the turn log “Since we’re past the year 1000 BC I buy a worker from Persia for 27…???” I have no idea what the year 1000 BC had to do with it. Just a random comment perhaps, or some sneaky detail I'm unaware of? Do you always buy available workers, at least early in the game?
    -
  • So let's say you extort 2 Gold per turn from a civ. I'm sure declaring war on them would probably hurt your reputation. Let's say you extort a non-“per-turn” item, like a technology. Does declaring war after that hurt your rep? Are you considered "paid off" for 20 turns, even though there is no "per turn" deal?
    -
  • I admit I can't easily list specifics, but I thought you guys had some reputation issues with Japan, Zulu, and Persia. I was surprised when you sold contact with Persia to the other continent. Anybody know for sure (or have an analysis of the rep issues in question)?
    -
  • I was shocked that the player who discovered Monarchy didn't instantly revolt, particularly with a religious civ. I saw later they were being nice to the team and leaving the timing to a team discussion. Is there any reason you'd ever NOT instantly revolt? Despotism is icky.
    -
  • I see that making a city and immediately disbanding it leaves improved territory behind, is this ever a useful technique? If I had some extra settlers, it might be tempting to use a few to improve the territory of a jungle area and THEN settle a city on another jungle tile. Of course, I generally don't have extra settlers lying around. (I presume using settlers this way would not be considered an exploit, since you are paying a heavy price to achieve that land improvement. Are their rep or happiness issues for disbanding our own cities?)
    -
  • With all the mods out there, does anyone have an updated civilopedia with more info? I hate having to look stuff up when I forget details.
    -
  • I saw in one item of discussion that there's apparently a rep hit for ending an alliance by destroying the civ you’re allied AGAINST? That seems like a bug to me - you're ally should be jumping for joy.
    -
  • Is there a rep hit for destroying a civ? I read there was - that you've committed genocide or something.
    -
  • Here's a tough one. How do you know when you have "enough" units – I think I built too many for my war with Persia, for example, and that it not only delayed the attack, but actually resulted in a LONGER, thougher war since they had more Immortals.
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  • Related - In 10 AD you guys said: “Our forces consist of 3 settlers, 32 workers, 1 scout, 8 warriors, 18 spearmen, 13 swordsmen, a rather lonely-looking galley, and 17 of our honorable Mounted Warriors” That’s more than 1 worker for each of your 26 cities – and it’s not counting the 16 slave workers. You had 56 combat units (including 8 “obsolete” warriors) and 36 non-combat units. Do you feel that was a good ratio (of workers to cities or non-combat to combat units)?
    -
  • I went to Republic earlier than you guys, I think. My War Weariness went NUTS when I finished the Zulu and was fighting Persia. I don’t think I was even at war for that long - maybe 10 turns? - but my capital went from balanced happiness to having multiple extra unhappy citizens I couldn't easily cope with in one turn. Any clue why? I had to offer peace to get things back under control and leave Persia around for a 20 more turns, though I was ready to finish them off.
    -
  • I read that a unit fortified in a city will get back 2hp without a barracks. I should probably test this for myself, but I don't think I've seen that happen. Maybe just in Conquests?
    -
  • In what order do the AI players take their turns? Is it the order listed in the space race page? Not certain I can come up with situations where this would be relevant, but I realized I didn't know...
    -
  • Kind of a dumb ones: What is the wooden spoon? What does "SG" stand for in the team games people keep talking about? I'm surprised these look so popular - is it because trading off the mind-numbing micro management every 10 turns helps efficientcy? ;) (I do know why scout has never jumped out of a perfectly good airplane...)

That may be too much for one post, but I had a lot of notes from reading this thread.

Thanks,
 
Welcome SC. Here's some answers to your questions.;)

1) Vets: The cost of those 3 other warriors was to high for us to pay at the time. We save twice as much gold building barracks to create stronger units so we wouldn't have ot pay those higher unit cost. If we had all those warriors I don't think we would have had all the cash for upgrading.

2) Not upgrading reg units: We were using them as MP and didn't need them upgraded at that point. If you notice when we had more cash readily usable we did upgrade even regular units. Why upgrade a unit that is most likely never going to see battle, and is only there for happiness purposes?

3) The AI considers it a sneak attack. It's a very small rep hit, nothing like a ROP attack, but it does blemish our rep. Right now I think we're pretty spotless.

4) Paying higher prices or gifting does help, but only to a point. Can someone point to the article that states how much gold is gifted before it does nothing to the attitude of the AI? Isn't it something like 100 gold, or 5 times?

5) buy workers: A worker cost around 120 gold. For that, or a tech the AI will give you one of their population, which is a *HUGE* bonus early on. It's such a big advantage in the first 50 turns that it's pretty much "bad form" to use. There is a group of guys who made up some rules that basically limits the human so that the AI won't fall to far behind.;) This is one of those rules. The group is called RBC, Realms Beyond Civ. Me personally only follow rules like that when the SG (Or succesion game, the style of game this is) requires it. Bugsy, what's their website?

6) You shouldn't revolt in an SG if it's near the end of your turns. Another reason not to revolt is being in a war where active battles are around your cities. Or if you want to keep "whipping" citizens to remove them from the population of captured cities.

7) Settlers vs Improvments: I can see doing this only if you have a city that can pop a settler every 2-4 turns, and you only have a small area of jungle to clear... unless it's jungle there is no reason to do this... if there is jungle, then yes it can be worth it... 4 turns to build, 4 to move, and 1 to build/disband vs 4 workers for 6 turns.... that's 8 turns to make the workers, and turns they can be improving other things.

8) The rep hit with an ally for killing a civ confuses me too. I'm not sure what's going on with that. No rep hit for destroying a civ, unless with an allience, that I know of.

9) "enough units" is a hard call. COnsider that early on the AI has 2-3 defenders per a city, and add a defender per a difficulty level, and for an era. Usually 4 attackers are enough to ensure you'll take the city, but remember you'll need to leave 1 defender behind and you'll probably loose 1 so you should make sure that you have 2 close for a rear guard per a city. I think we took out Japan and most of the Zulu with a stack of 10 swordmen, but we had at least 1 per a turn being built. As for workers, I like a 2:1 ratio of workers to cities. Most go with a 1.5:1 ration.

10) Any form of representative goverment has EXTREME WW. There is no way to combat it, which is glad we took out our enemies before Republic became avaliable to us.;) We can switch after we finish this war.

11) Units forted in a city will get 2hps no matter what verison. It's just hard to spot because you have so many regular units.:p Really though, go ahead and test and you'll see it's true. It does take 1 FULL turn to heal a unit in a city with a barracks too.

12) No idea how the order of the AI is done. Is a good thing to test out. Will help determine trade routes.

13) "wooden Spoon" is an award that some folks recieved for having the "lowest score on a varient" for a SG contest we have going on called SG of the Month. You should see that listed too.

I think that's everything.;)
 
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