GK2- The Training Day Experiment

[JackRules]

Gentlemen,

After reading the last few posts, two areas I would like to do more research on:
1) Any tutorials out there on the use of Specialists in C3C? I have just finished SirPleb's Sid Game (unbelievable how that guy can see options I can't even fathom) and I've learned about using taxmen instead of clowns in many cases, but I have no clue how to properly use cops and engineers, and I'm shaky on scientists.
2) Probably related to #1, is there anywhere to read up on the proper use of totally corrupt cities to get the most out of them? If anyone can point me at some info on these two questions I would be much obliged. Thanks.

edit: I was going to suggest as someone did (wasn't Alerum) that pillaging around the capitol while healing might be a good start to taking them out.

 

[scoutsout]

@Mistfit: I think there is a knight or two in the queue. As for finishing off the Persians in the next 10 turns... is that so important? Granted, short wars are nearly always preferable to longer ones...but you guys are in Monarchy.

@Alerum: I like your idea of making a focused drive on the Persian Capitol. For some reason, capturing an AI capitol normally takes them out of contention in a game.

@Team: It would be a lot of fun to swap a bunch of builds to Knights and simply run over the last few Persian towns. I'm going to recommend that we not do that here. As you progress up the levels you need to learn to fight smart. When you get beyond monarch, it is increasingly difficult to simply outproduce and over-run the AI. You need to learn to make the very best use of what you have available.

I think this would be a good time for everybody to download the save and have a look. Inventory your empire, and take a look at the units that could be brought to bear against Persia... figure out what you've got, and what you can muster and/or upgrade. Consider your scheme of maneuver, and draw it up on a screenshot.

In other words, figure out your "Order of Battle".

Condition: Make all the military build order changes you want, but you may make no more than 1 build order change that involves swapping a non-military build out of a build queue.

This is one of the Good Things about SG play. There is a good chance that someone will see something that the rest of you don't. If you figure it out on your own, you'll benefit a lot more than if Bede simply tells you how he got to his different outcome from a start 10 turns ago. We can discuss "How you might have played it" after you figure out what to do next.

 

[scoutsout]

1) Any tutorials out there on the use of Specialists in C3C?

Bede is probably the player I know who would be most qualified to write one. (And yes, brother Bede, that is a challenge for you to write something up for Strategy Articles...) Your second question is another one for Bede.

As for Sir Pleb... he is "breathing rare air" at his level. His play is truly amazing.

Edit: In looking for an "order of go", I came across a question JackRules asked about civ names next to cities, and didn't see an answer...@JackRules: look for "color blind help" in preferences....

Here's the order-of-play, as best I know it. (Bugsy please confirm)

alerum68 - swapped with SK, has played lately
coletite - UP!
GJ - on deck
qm1- MIA (at sea?)
Mistfit- warming up
SolarKnight - just played

 

[JackRules]

I'm sure a War Academy article from Bede on Specialists would be much appreciated by lots of players looking to move up their level of play.

 

[DJMGator13]

I'm sure a War Academy article from Bede on Specialists would be much appreciated by lots of players looking to move up their level of play.

Not only on what they do but in their proper use. To date I have not used Policemen or Engineers in any of my games, mainly because I did not need them but I would like to knew "when & which one" is more appropriate to use.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I can speak a little to engineers since I use them a lot in the late game. I don't use the cops very much, mostly because I haven't figured them out very well.

Each engineer contributes 2 spt to a non-military build. I use them in corrupt cities to speed up a build. Let's say you have City X that is so corrupt it is producing 1 uncorrupted spt (uspt). If it has at least two extra food, you can pull a citizen off a tile and have them work as an engineer, giving you 3 uspt. You just cut your build time by 67%. If you have a food rich city, you maybe able to peal three or four citizens off of tiles and make them engineers, and really produce some uspt.

Scientists can be used the same way. Scout wrote about a game where he was able to run 100% lux (he was milking it), used a bunch of scientists and was still able to maintain 4-turn research all the way to the modern age.

 

[scoutsout]

Scientists can be used the same way. Scout wrote about a game where he was able to run 100% lux (he was milking it), used a bunch of scientists and was still able to maintain 4-turn research all the way to the modern age.

Well... that's a little bit of an overstatement... the early IA techs didn't come so quickly. But as the cities grew I was able to hire more scientists, and Motorized Transportation was a 6-turn tech at 0.0.1 for me. That was in COTM1, so my final save is available for download. The cities lack cultural improvements (I sold 'em all off) so there is plenty to be built if you want to play with engineers. Taxmen and scientists can be tinkered with as well... though I don't know how much good additional techs would be. Korea is banished to a 1 tile island, and surrounded by Privateers. :devil2:

On a more serious note:

Bear in mind: Specialists seem more powerful in C3C than Vanilla/PTW, and you don't get Policemen/Civil Engineers in Vanilla. Policemen can reduce waste (shields) as well as corruption (gold). Sometimes you can speed up a courthouse build with a combination of Cops and Engineers.

If you guys want to play with some specialists, dig up Bede1. We made pretty extensive use of them in that game. Just page forward until you get to the industrial ages. Grab one of the saves just prior to when we went commie, and see if you can speed up some courthouse/police station builds. If you want to see some truly magnificent city management, grab one of Bede's saves... especially the ones after we went commie.

That game was a memorable learning experience for me. (and I truly enjoyed Bede's consternation at "Arnhem" )

 

[alerum68]

If you guys want to learn about specialist, and how to use them do what I did... make a modded game that takes away all the stuff we alrady know how to do... growth problems, and early expansion mainly... What I did for this was make "super workers" that could finish ANY improvment but railroads on mountains in 1 turn, and they could found cities, and unlimited movement, costing only 1 shield. You can then make a empire, fully improvement, within about 100 turns.... you can concentrate on things you never think about using like specialist, and wierd build orders, because the game isn't abut winning at that point, it' to easy. It's just learning... Belive it or not, I did this and I feel I can MM with specialist with the best of them because of it.

PS: One thing... when you are starving down a captured city, ONLY use Taxman. Clowns do nothing for the remaining resistors, and the city "growth/shrink" cycle happens before production, BUT money is handled first. So you can get your money before the city shrinks, but the cops and civil engs are worthless. They're removed before they're used.

 

[denyd]

Alerum68: When starving down a very large (>12) city, I like to have a couple of citizens as clowns to prevent rioting when the stop resisting. The rest are either taxmen or scientists, depending on whether I need money or research. Note that in C3C, the taxmen & scientists become more powerful as instead of getting 1 beaker or gold, they now get more (3 beakers or 2 gold), making them much better choices than clowns.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Denyd is right, you have to figure you're going to subdue some resisters each turn. If you will have any food left in the box or you have zero grwoth, you will want a clown to prevent rioting. If the city riots, then you don't get any cash from it.

 

[coletite]

If anyone is able to post some stats pertaining to the size of our forces, that would be great. I'd like to get some thoughts going while at work. If not, I'll just grab the save when I get home tonight.

 

[Bede]

@scout, challenge accepted. The War Academy article has been percolating for a long time (since RBC39). It is not finished brewing yet as I keep learning new things. Kylearean is a true master of the specialist.

@JackRules and team,

2) Probably related to #1, is there anywhere to read up on the proper use of totally corrupt cities to get the most out of them?

As always I am going to respond to a question with a question. What production commodity is never corrupted? And, what can you do with it?

 

[GJ]

As always I am going to respond to a question with a question. What production commodity is never corrupted? And, what can you do with it?

...Food?

If you're in the proper government, you can spawn citizens quickly and rush things that way...

 

[alerum68]

But using scientist is a waste too Gentleman. Reearch is the LAST thing computed, that's why you you get the message at the end of your turn. If the city shrinks the only thing that you'll get is the cash. I can see the argument for clowns, but anything but clowns and taxman *ARE* wasted. Test yourself... I have.

 

[coletite]

Food is never wasted.

What can you do with it, other then growing cities?

1) Produce settlers/workers that can join other cities for a production boost.

2) Use taxmen/scientists (depending... can a city be 100% corrupt?) if not, then you can grow a city to a large size and use taxmen/scientists to get something out of it. It may not be much, but it would at least be something.

3) Pop rush.

4) Draft.

5) Increase score and power.

I'm sure I'm overlooking something.

 

[Bede]

Food is never wasted.

1) Produce settlers/workers that can join other cities for a production boost.

Let the corrupt town put one or two shields in the bin then you can rush settlers/workers using cash at a reduced cost.

2) Use taxmen/scientists (depending... can a city be 100% corrupt?) if not, then you can grow a city to a large size and use taxmen/scientists to get something out of it. It may not be much, but it would at least be something.

With nine irrigated grasslands in any government other than despotism nine citizens produce 27fpt. That means the last three can be tax collectors. With 20 towns set up like this you now have 60gpt that can be used to buy additional luxes or techs, or finance unit upgrades or cash rush improvements.


3) Pop rush.

Last resort and best used in towns that have lots of furriners.

4) Draft.

Another last resort, unless you want to draft and disband for an improvement kicker. Utility is limited as it creates unhappy citizens.

5) Increase score and power.

Never pay too much attention to score except as a way of measuring the next target for his/hers concrete overshoes

I'm sure I'm overlooking something.

Not in my playbook. I'm sure Mad-bax or denyd or gator or.....just about anybody, could add to the list

 

[Mistfit]

@scoutout: After reading SirPleb's brilliant Sid HoF recap I'd like to point out that I'm not the only one to give away fully grown cities in the IA. As a matter of fact I'm in very good company there.

 

[handy900]

Just a post to subscribe to this thread. I accidentally unsubscribed.

 

[Mistfit]

Just a quick note to Scout and Gator: We hope everything is going well for you and you and yours are all safe. Also anyone else in the southern U.S. that is looking down the throat of Charley.

 

[alerum68]

Glad to see ya Handy, but I think you can subscribe without having to post, by going under thread tools. BTW- That Mayan map is a tough cookie with no horse or iron... you guys sticking with?