Global Steam Engine Agreement of 1850

[Souron]

But it makes sense: What western power wants third world units traveling half the world in one turn?

 

[Xenocrates]

One difference is that steam trains have a non-military use but not nuclear weapons. Unless you count US plans to blast a harbour in Alaska using nukes..... There were serious plans to use them for large engineering projects. It's quicker than digging.

However we justify possessing nukes because they are a deterent, despite the fact theat they didn't deter Bin Laden or the IRA etc. etc. In that case, the more deterents there are the better surely? Oh yes, not when they might deter us and not when they might reduce the sales of our conventional weapons!

 

[blackheart]

I don't really see the Global Steam Engine Agreement of 1850 as a stupid idea. It worked didn't it? It kept the technology and power concentrated in the hands of a select group of nations, therefore concentrating wealth and giving that select group superiority over those who didn't have it.

Of course it wouldn't be kept a secret forever, but it gave the West a significant advantage over the East for a long period of time.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Yes steam engines and nuclear weapons are completely different, no pulling the wool over your eyes, guys The point of the thread is to question the wisdom and ethics of trying to prevent the spread of technology. Whether that technology is steam engines, flush toliets, or nuclear weaponry.

 

[skadistic]

Yes its ethical to keep your enamies or potential enamies from having knowledge ( tech ) that would make them on par with you.

 

[The Yankee]

Well, we must certainly make sure Iran never has the flush toilet capability!

Perhaps your overall point though, Bozo, is that something will change ten, twenty, fifty years from now and there may be a situation when we can't ship nuclear arms to Iran fast enough, like how the situations of World War I called for an expansion of rail lines and new rail lines in colonial territories?

 

[warpus]

I don't really see the Global Steam Engine Agreement of 1850 as a stupid idea. It worked didn't it? It kept the technology and power concentrated in the hands of a select group of nations, therefore concentrating wealth and giving that select group superiority over those who didn't have it.

Of course it wouldn't be kept a secret forever, but it gave the West a significant advantage over the East for a long period of time.

Yes, it was a very smart strategic move that was designed to prolong European dominance in the world.. and in that regard it worked.

But while you could successfully argue that the current nuclear non-proliferation treaties were initially designed to give the West an edge over the rest of the world - you'd have to concede that the proliferation of nuclear weapons is a bad idea in general, and that the whole world can benefit from nuclear non-proliferation treaties.

You couldn't say the same thing about treaties limiting the proliferation of steam engines.

 

[7ronin]

James Watt introduced his improved steam engine in 1769. Why did the world powers wait 81 years before deciding that it was dangerous technology?Seems to me that the cat was already out of the bag by then.

 

[sanabas]

So what is it about nuclear non proliferation that makes any sense?

Very little.

 

[allhailIndia]

Very little.

It makes sense to try and reduce nuclear weapons in the world.

It makes no sense to allow only 5 countries to have as many as they want while the rest get punished for trying to get one as well.

 

[Dann]

James Watt introduced his improved steam engine in 1769. Why did the world powers wait 81 years before deciding that it was dangerous technology?Seems to me that the cat was already out of the bag by then.

Only among the European powers, and the United States.

By 1850 neither the Qing Empire (China), Mughal Empire (India), Ottoman Empire, Japan, nor any nation in South America or Africa had railroads. This agreement was made precisely to keep this technology out of their reach and limit their tech level.

 

[Rambuchan]

Only among the European powers, and the United States.

By 1850 neither the Qing Empire (China), Mughal Empire (India), Ottoman Empire, Japan, nor any nation in South America or Africa had railroads. This agreement was made precisely to keep this technology out of their reach and limit their tech level.

Think of these vaguely related, randomly picked, modern day parallels:

- Micrsoft holding back its latest version of 'x'.
- Samsung doing the same.
- Holding back of bio-diesel and other renewable energies...benefits whom?
- Cartels of any kind.
- Price fixing rackets within cartels.

See the vague resemblances?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Yes its ethical to keep your enamies or potential enamies from having knowledge ( tech ) that would make them on par with you.

I was starting to reply to everyone, but it would take all morning. Skadistics comment sums the whole thing up, I think. Underlying the entire global non proliferation apparatus and all the b.s. associated with it is that one simple sentiment. But now that the NPT is clearly falling apart, and 'rogue' nations (a rogue nation is any nation which doesnt accept the dominance of the West) are easily either developing or acquiring them, what should be done next? Regardless of what some people might believe, the US isnt capable of invading and occupying every country that decides to have nukes. So the world is entering a new phase. Everything is going to have to change, the current world order is now unsustainable, and its showing. The UN is a relic of a world with only five nuclear armed nations. That world no longer exists. The NPT is no longer worth the paper its written on. The entire world is going nuclear. So now that the old world order is crumbling around us, what should we erect in its place? I think thats the single biggest question facing the world right now, although very few people seem to be aware of it.

[/rambling rant]

 

[Dann]

Why countermeasures of course (SDI for instance). Or an even bigger bomb.

 

[Rambuchan]

So now that the old world order is crumbling around us, what should we erect in its place? I think thats the single biggest question facing the world right now, although very few people seem to be aware of it.

[/rambling rant]

Oh people are aware of it. Bush and Blair declared in no uncertain terms that they were building a new world order. People haven't missed that.

Worth mentioning also...Kofi Annan is up for retiring from his position as Secretary General of the UN. Word on the grape vine is that an East Asian will be stepping into his shoes. I wonder how people feel about that?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Why countermeasures of course (SDI for instance). Or an even bigger bomb.

Yeah eventually there'll be a workable, perfected SDI, but its not really right around the corner. Theres going to be a window of time when the world will be bristling with nukes, and we wont have SDI. We have to figure out a way to navigate through that period safely.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Oh people are aware of it. Bush and Blair declared in no uncertain terms that they were building a new world order. People haven't missed that.

If the world order that they have in mind is one where the West remains dominant, theyre just whistling as they pass the graveyard.

Worth mentioning also...Kofi Annan is up for retiring from his position as Secretary General of the UN. Word on the grape vine is that an East Asian will be stepping into his shoes. I wonder how people feel about that?

I dont think it'll make one bit of difference where the next Sec Gen is from. Whoever or whatever he is, he'd just be the symbolic head of a dying system. The position is rapidly becoming as relevant as Holy Roman Emperor.

 

[Dann]

Yeah eventually there'll be a workable, perfected SDI, but its not really right around the corner. Theres going to be a window of time when the world will be bristling with nukes, and we wont have SDI. We have to figure out a way to navigate through that period safely.

How about anti-matter bombs then? "Nuke us and we atomize you."

 

[Rambuchan]

If the world order that they have in mind is one where the West remains dominant, theyre just whistling as they pass the graveyard.

Oh yeah, I didn't say their idea of a new world order was working.

I dont think it'll make one bit of difference where the next Sec Gen is from. Whoever or whatever he is, he'd just be the symbolic head of a dying system. The position is rapidly becoming as relevant as Holy Roman Emperor.

I hear this all the time from posters in the US, but it's not true. That organisation still holds all the hoops through which you have to jump.

 

[The Last Conformist]

correct phrase sould be ...First, any country allied to USA is free to stay out of it ...

I take it you missed India in the list?