Global warming mod

[Afforess]

Even though we have gone WAY off the original topic here I will continue leading us down the other path.

Why do you have to be so clear cut and black and white with your definitions. Is there no room for social-capitalism? I see that in America a lot. You are either one thing or you are the other with no room for intermediaries. You are either red or blue, left or right, American or your a communist, believe in god or the spawn of satan (yes I am making generalist statements). In reality there is far more wiggle room.

There's plenty of wiggle room. More people are registered independents than Republican or Democrat, there is agnosticism, and deism for religion, and plenty of other middle grounds. Personally, I don't think Laissez-faire capitalism works in all cases; case in point: the environment. Other equally bad areas are safety, and honesty in advertising. That's why we have a government in the first place, to protect workers and consumers. Thinking that businesses will choose the right decision over easy money is folly. However, the government makes a terrible business. One only has to look at the Post Office for an example. IIRC, the US Post Office has been bailed out 3 times already, and is nearly broke again. Fedex, DHS, and UPS kick USPS's butt. And if our government can't run a postal service, you want them to run something a lot more critical, healthcare? We all hate our politicians, but would trust them to do the right thing in the operating room? What kind of sick insanity is that? (Note: my health care is from a non-profit, BCBSM, not a business. I'm not sure I would trust an exec more than our senators...)

 

[NBAfan]

Also look at GM vs Ford. Ford is in much better shape.

 

[soup567]

The USA won't crash and burn any more than it already has by implementing a national healthcare system that's actually based on need rather than greed. I think the privatisation of medical care is one of the most morally repugnant things that capitalism has yet hit upon.

I agree, and the new health care bill that finally passed here in the U.S., does require people to buy health care, but it's more affordable now, but still making people buy stuff I guess is bad.

But on the bright side it does good things, like you can get coverage for pre-existing conditions, and your insurance company can't drop you if you get sick. It's a start towards a national health care system.

 

[Arakhor]

A medical insurance company dropping if you get ill when that is precisely why you were paying them in the first place is fraud and they should be hounded out of business for that.

 

[twjr]

And if our government can't run a postal service, you want them to run something a lot more critical, healthcare?

That could just be your postal service. NZPost operates perfectly well. In fact most of the SOE's in NZ work pretty well (the power companies aside) and I would say one of the governments biggest mistakes was privatising the telecom industry here.

I am very happy with the way my government runs the healthcare system here. In fact I would guess that every other developed nation than America would be pretty pleased with universal healthcare. Looking at life expectancy vs health care spending most there is a pretty linear increase with lifespan compared to health care spending. This is until you look at America which spends over twice as much money per capita on health care as Denmark for a similar life expectancy. Clearly somewhere in your system you are incorporating an inefficiency and I would hazard a guess that it is from the insurers.

 

[Afforess]

That could just be your postal service. NZPost operates perfectly well. In fact most of the SOE's in NZ work pretty well (the power companies aside) and I would say one of the governments biggest mistakes was privatising the telecom industry here.

Our telecom's suck because our government's branch for communications (FCC) is full of lawyers who don't want to upset the status quo, and the companies are psuedo-monopolies.

I am very happy with the way my government runs the healthcare system here. In fact I would guess that every other developed nation than America would be pretty pleased with universal healthcare. Looking at life expectancy vs health care spending most there is a pretty linear increase with lifespan compared to health care spending. This is until you look at America which spends over twice as much money per capita on health care as Denmark for a similar life expectancy. Clearly somewhere in your system you are incorporating an inefficiency and I would hazard a guess that it is from the insurers.

No, that isn't the reason. Ever heard of how lawsuit happy Americans are? Well, we are. We sue for every imaginable (and some unimaginable) reasons. We sue for hot coffee. We sue for ice on the road. We sue our Doctors for making us better. We sue so much that our Malpractice is insanely high. Thats why our healthcare is sky high. We need tort reform, but the lawyers run the lobbying agencies...

 

[civ_king]

Then you have Communism which just makes everyone poor. People were just as selfish before Reagan.

Communism sucks too,
Communism is forever screwed because of the innateness of human greed, and Capitalism is successful at screwing the poor because of greed

If you start a thread on Hitler, "Global warming," and if Canada\Poland should be in Civ it always happens.

Joyous times

Geez. Politics, religion and minor Civ details that always cause arguments - now all we need is a debate about capital punishment, universal welfare and regulation of personal firearms

Capital Punishment- Killing people is bad mmk? (plus more expensive than life punishment)
Universal Welfare- They should work for government money (work to find jobs, Ontario has an excellent program)
Guns- Rifles for hunting are fun (shotguns too), pistols seem unnecessary, I am one of those evil people who think people shouldn't have machineguns

As Opposed to what? Communism? We know that works. Socialism? Greece is a prime example of success.

Out of all the economic systems, Capitalism has the least failures.

Greece has turned into a hellhole because no one has understood the concept of a balanced budget

Except for the constant recessions...oh...and wall street stealing our money!
If there's a new way, I'll be the first in line, but it better work this time.

And I know socialism (and communism) isn't perfect, personally I would prefer a mixed economy, but much more social, than the U.S.A.'s one is currently.

mixed economy FTW

Even though we have gone WAY off the original topic here I will continue leading us down the other path.

Why do you have to be so clear cut and black and white with your definitions. Is there no room for social-capitalism? I see that in America a lot. You are either one thing or you are the other with no room for intermediaries. You are either red or blue, left or right, American or your a communist, believe in god or the spawn of satan (yes I am making generalist statements). In reality there is far more wiggle room.

the world is full of vibrant colors in many shades

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.
Winston Churchill

Churchill had a very dark side

That's why I said I preferred a mixed economy

yes

the Gilded Age was about as close as the World as gotten to pure Capitalism, if it had continued unhindered by the evil progressive (with women's rights, education, disability, hazard pay and other horrific atrocities like that) it would have sparked revolution

France, and Canada don't seem to be in such bad shape

 

[Slammer64]

Just one thing you have to remember "Economies of Scale", look at the populations of France and Canada. And French and Canadian health care systems are in not that good of shape either.

 

[Afforess]

My biggest problem with Socialized Medicine is not the Socialized part but the "How the hell do we pay for this part". I mean, America is TRILLIONS in debt, throwing another trillion on in a poor economy is just asking for trouble. We need to adopt a PAYGO system, or else the Chinese will own us...

 

[civ_king]

Just one thing you have to remember "Economies of Scale", look at the populations of France and Canada. And French and Canadian health care systems are in not that good of shape either.

IIRC Canada's health care is running a minimal profit, also France is hyper-socialist, you get literally cradle to crave care over there, and last I checked it wasn't much worse

My biggest problem with Socialized Medicine is not the Socialized part but the "How the hell do we pay for this part". I mean, America is TRILLIONS in debt, throwing another trillion on in a poor economy is just asking for trouble. We need to adopt a PAYGO system, or else the Chinese will own us...

OMG socialist! Bill Clinton style government! the end of morality is nigh upon us!

 

[twjr]

Our telecom's suck because our government's branch for communications (FCC) is full of lawyers who don't want to upset the status quo, and the companies are psuedo-monopolies.


No, that isn't the reason. Ever heard of how lawsuit happy Americans are? Well, we are. We sue for every imaginable (and some unimaginable) reasons. We sue for hot coffee. We sue for ice on the road. We sue our Doctors for making us better. We sue so much that our Malpractice is insanely high. Thats why our healthcare is sky high. We need tort reform, but the lawyers run the lobbying agencies...

So basically the problem is that you have lawyers stuck up your wahzoo? Also I guess the pharmacs and health insurers lobbying the govt probably don't help.

 

[NBAfan]

OMG socialist! Bill Clinton style government! the end of morality is nigh upon us!

You can't ignore the fact that we can't pay for anything.

No, that isn't the reason. Ever heard of how lawsuit happy Americans are? Well, we are. We sue for every imaginable (and some unimaginable) reasons. We sue for hot coffee. We sue for ice on the road. We sue our Doctors for making us better. We sue so much that our Malpractice is insanely high. Thats why our healthcare is sky high. We need tort reform, but the lawyers run the lobbying agencies...

If you cap Malpractice lawsutes, rates will go down. One good thing about Calif. is they have put a cap Malpractice lawsutes.

 

[civ_king]

i's still a cesspool of horrific budgetry as the Democrats can't cut anything because the voters are revolting from to much cuts, programs entirely funded from ballot initiatives so no cuts, and the Republicans not wanting to raise taxes

 

[Supercheese]

From what I hear, if I wanted to buy a health care plan that only covered critical conditions, and basically nothing else, with a large deductible (~$2.5k), that is no longer legal under the new Obamacare system.

What nobody can tell me is why on Earth this is the case...

 

[Arakhor]

Maybe it's because I was brought up in the home of the NHS, but I see absolutely no reason why everyone should not get free accident and emergency cover, minimally-priced life-saving medicines and free consultation (if not free operations) with a doctor.

Have private care as well by all means, but a lack of free healthcare means that the government has failed in its primary job - safeguarding the country's citizens.

 

[szemek77]

Couple of comments:

1. I often hear "the rich are stealing money from the poor" style capitalism criticism. If you take Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs into account, I think this mainly the case for countries which DO NOT have free market economy.

Let's not be naive: every country, society, community needs to have its elite. The most important thing is: how the elite is being created. This is one of the advantages of capitalism. The more transparent the rules are, the more free and less regulated the economy is, the more chance fair and natural process of elite creation is. If it is fair competition, you have no reason to complain about how filthy rich B. Gates or W. Buffet are. The problem of socialism/communism is that the system does not promote talented people, but only those who got better connections. Thus, capitalism is also more effetcive. The cost of activity is much lower to i.e. system in which you need 140 various permissions and concessions to build a factory (like in Russia)

2. U.S. is in trouble not because it is capitalist, but because it DIGRESSED from its rules. For example, as much as I know, federal and local authorities in U.S. encouraged or even forced financial institutions to grant more subprime loans.

3. I'm surprised, you Americans complain about your telecoms. My Master Degree thesis was about Clinton's economic policy, so I studied this subject thoroughly. His deregulation policy in that area was really impressive and combined with the Internet promotion ideas gave you great economic boost in late 90's. When I visited U.S. in 2000 (and then again, and again until 2004) I was stunned that you can get broadband and free local calls for 15 $/month, while in my country you had to pay 10 $/month JUST for telephone connection, with all calls extra paid, and very poor Internet connection for additional 20 $. Not to mention that in U.S. I could buy a 5 $ card and talk to Poland for 1 (one!) hour long, which was probably the most amazing fact to me at this time.

4. One of the most important problem of current capitalist system is its vulnerability. It is not only that a rumour can destroy even a quite big bank:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/bear_stearns200808

It is also a field of risky game for big sharks. In September 2008 we paid 2,0 PLN (Polish Zloty) for 1 $, while 6 months later - 3,8 PLN. There was no valid economic reason (on both, Polish, and U.S. side) for such a change, but somebody got really good money on that

5. Last thing: the budget deficit. In socialist EU countries it is a straight way to hell, especially if you take demographic problems ahead. In U.S. it is different problem: in late 90's your country enjoyed couple (2 or 3 I guess) years of budget surpluss. But, the war on terror ruined everything. In my opinion it is so, because you have a really well developed war industry. It originated from 1941, when Japan made a suicidal attempt to poke a hungry tiger. Years of cold war "helped" with that as well. Currently, the military lobby contributes very much to your deficit problems.

 

[NBAfan]

Couple of comments:

Spoiler :

1. I often hear "the rich are stealing money from the poor" style capitalism criticism. If you take Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs into account, I think this mainly the case for countries which DO NOT have free market economy.

Let's not be naive: every country, society, community needs to have its elite. The most important thing is: how the elite is being created. This is one of the advantages of capitalism. The more transparent the rules are, the more free and less regulated the economy is, the more chance fair and natural process of elite creation is. If it is fair competition, you have no reason to complain about how filthy rich B. Gates or W. Buffet are. The problem of socialism/communism is that the system does not promote talented people, but only those who got better connections. Thus, capitalism is also more effetcive. The cost of activity is much lower to i.e. system in which you need 140 various permissions and concessions to build a factory (like in Russia)

5. Last thing: the budget deficit. In socialist EU countries it is a straight way to hell, especially if you take demographic problems ahead. In U.S. it is different problem: in late 90's your country enjoyed couple (2 or 3 I guess) years of budget surpluss. But, the war on terror ruined everything. In my opinion it is so, because you have a really well developed war industry. It originated from 1941, when Japan made a suicidal attempt to poke a hungry tiger. Years of cold war "helped" with that as well. Currently, the military lobby contributes very much to your deficit problems.

At least with capitalism anyone can do well, but on the other side no one can.

The reason the Iraq war has not ended is because of the military industral complex. Same with the Afgan side.

From what I hear, if I wanted to buy a health care plan that only covered critical conditions, and basically nothing else, with a large deductible (~$2.5k), that is no longer legal under the new Obamacare system.

What nobody can tell me is why on Earth this is the case...

Obamacare is like the government making everyone buy the same car. If you want a different car then to bad.

 

[Afforess]

Couple of comments:

1. I often hear "the rich are stealing money from the poor" style capitalism criticism. If you take Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs into account, I think this mainly the case for countries which DO NOT have free market economy.

Let's not be naive: every country, society, community needs to have its elite. The most important thing is: how the elite is being created. This is one of the advantages of capitalism. The more transparent the rules are, the more free and less regulated the economy is, the more chance fair and natural process of elite creation is. If it is fair competition, you have no reason to complain about how filthy rich B. Gates or W. Buffet are. The problem of socialism/communism is that the system does not promote talented people, but only those who got better connections. Thus, capitalism is also more effetcive. The cost of activity is much lower to i.e. system in which you need 140 various permissions and concessions to build a factory (like in Russia)

I was thinking the same thing. It's not like the elite have really changed. They are still rich; they are still a minority, they are still powerful. Capitalism hasn't made them more powerful; if anything, they are less powerful with Capitalism, because with Capitalism you can vote with your dollar; you have no such luxury with other economic systems.

2. U.S. is in trouble not because it is capitalist, but because it DIGRESSED from its rules. For example, as much as I know, federal and local authorities in U.S. encouraged or even forced financial institutions to grant more subprime loans.

Credit Cards. The US went downhill when Americans discovered that you could live, if for a short time, with out a balanced budget. Ever since...

3. I'm surprised, you Americans complain about your telecoms. My Master Degree thesis was about Clinton's economic policy, so I studied this subject thoroughly. His deregulation policy in that area was really impressive and combined with the Internet promotion ideas gave you great economic boost in late 90's. When I visited U.S. in 2000 (and then again, and again until 2004) I was stunned that you can get broadband and free local calls for 15 $/month, while in my country you had to pay 10 $/month JUST for telephone connection, with all calls extra paid, and very poor Internet connection for additional 20 $. Not to mention that in U.S. I could buy a 5 $ card and talk to Poland for 1 (one!) hour long, which was probably the most amazing fact to me at this time.

Google has offered one to put 1GB/S fiber optic cable in one small American town, and let them compete. Our Mayor's did some amazing things to try to get Google to lay their fiber, from renaming Topeka, Kansas to Google, Kansas, from swimming with sharks and creating human chains visible from the air. We're desperate for better infrastructure. 45 Million Americans have no alternative to dial up. Millions more have only one cable company, so the company can charge what ever they want. Why is this the case? Because we initially set up telecoms as miniature monopolies, doling out areas for them to serve. If they could compete everywhere, we would have a lot more options, and a lot faster speeds. Competition is always good for the consumer.

4. One of the most important problem of current capitalist system is its vulnerability. It is not only that a rumour can destroy even a quite big bank:

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/bear_stearns200808

It is also a field of risky game for big sharks. In September 2008 we paid 2,0 PLN (Polish Zloty) for 1 $, while 6 months later - 3,8 PLN. There was no valid economic reason (on both, Polish, and U.S. side) for such a change, but somebody got really good money on that

Banks' fault for not owning enough of their own shares. "A fool and his money are soon parted"

5. Last thing: the budget deficit. In socialist EU countries it is a straight way to hell, especially if you take demographic problems ahead. In U.S. it is different problem: in late 90's your country enjoyed couple (2 or 3 I guess) years of budget surpluss. But, the war on terror ruined everything. In my opinion it is so, because you have a really well developed war industry. It originated from 1941, when Japan made a suicidal attempt to poke a hungry tiger. Years of cold war "helped" with that as well. Currently, the military lobby contributes very much to your deficit problems.

If the world had a leaderboard like the Civ one, America would be at the very top, and our strength would be a least 10x that of the next best country (China?).

There are a lot of easy ways for America to increase earnings though, I'm personally in favor of open immigration, like back in the 1800's; where anyone can come to America and get a visa, and eventually be a naturalized citizen. More people = More tax revenue.

 

[soup567]

miniature monopolies, doling out areas for them to serve. If they could compete everywhere, we would have a lot more options, and a lot faster speeds. Competition is always good for the consumer.

Monopolies are one of my main problems with capitalism. Even though they aren't allowed in the U.S. we definitely have them, even though it might not be so clear, and plus they do bad things in other countries.

More people = More tax revenue.

I agree with that, except for the fact that open immigration can't happen, because of all the racist people who are so opposed to it.

Plus, I think that people should be allowed to come here if they want to, if they need to support their families and if there lives' are bad in their own countries, mostly because I'm so liberal.

 

[NBAfan]

I agree with that, except for the fact that open immigration can't happen, because of all the racist people who are so opposed to it.

Plus, I think that people should be allowed to come here if they want to, if they need to support their families and if there lives' are bad in their own countries, mostly because I'm so liberal.

I am in favor immigration done the legal way. There are too many people in this country ilegaly as 1 out 3 our prisoners is an ilegal immigrant. These people are not in jail for being in the country ilegaly but for commiting rape, murder ect. The border also needs to be secured because of all the violence. The reason Obama wants to give the ilegals citizenship is so they can vote Obama and co. into power forever.