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God i can't stop cheating

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by henyo10, Jun 30, 2008.

  1. Stoney the I

    Stoney the I Prince

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    I dont.

    i hardly ever load, but when i do it, it doesnt bother me. in fact i rather load then live with the frustration of knowing "if i would have done that, well, that would have worked". i dont start a new game for that, if i just spend 4 hours getting this far.

    I reload if i miss a wonder by <2 turns and can get it if i chop that last piece of forest with 3 workers.
    I also reload if i loose a lot of units in a single turn due to some bad rolls in a row. like 10 attack units with all 70%% chance and losing 7 or 8 of them. doesnt happen often, but when it does, i reload.

    i think it bothers civvers more maybe because we want the game to have a certain amount of realism. many mistakes were made throughout history and dealing with them and surviving is part of it. the game can reflect that. Personally i hate it when mistakes kill a good game, so using the time machine and loading the game a few turns back isnt cheating in my book. thank god the AI cant do it though. :D
     
  2. Elkad

    Elkad Emperor

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    I don't reload, barring genuine unfixable errors. And since I have autosaves turned off, and never save during play, I have to reload back to the beginning of the play session.

    I played Diablo2 on hardcore the entire time too. One death=make new character.
     
  3. The Snug

    The Snug The Civ Heretic

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    I agree. I only reload if catastrophe happens simply because it takes 10 minutes for the game to load. That's a good built-in deterent right there.
     
  4. pumpkin

    pumpkin Chieftain

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    Your comparison is incorrect, you should compare with something like an fps player who would reload the game not because they died but just because they spent a little too much ammo for their liking in the last fight. Or with people using godmode or unlimited ammo etc. You'll find there is quite a lot of resentment going on among fps players in that regard.

    As to the topic, I read somewhere that everytime you use Worldbuilder, Isabella kills a kitten. If that doesn't keep you from entering WB then you are a lost case...

    And a question for people who enter worldbuilder in the early game: Doesn't it spoil much of the fogbusting and resource-finding fun for you if you see the territorial makeup rather than discover it??

    I have been known to reload in order not to loose my full-health CR3 swordsman to a crippled spearman etc. (i.e. really bad dice rolls), but i would never use worldbuilder simply because it destroys the 'discovery fun' that makes up a lot of the game for me.
     
  5. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    reloaders are probably the best players. having reloaded "when your 2 chops away from a wonder" or "only when i lose alot of units" shows a deep understanding of the game in a way non reloaders can never fathom. We are suppossed to learn from our mistakes and reloaders actually do, they learn to go back and not make it whereas average ol non reloaders plod forward blind to their errors and cursing luck and game gods.
     
  6. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    I strongly disagree. Reloaders don't necessarily learn from their mistakes. They don't have to learn anything much at all.

    If I miss a wonder by 2 turns and reload a save to do some extra chopping what have I learnt? Nothing! I get the wonder, and the mistake that made me miss it in the first place had no effect. With reloading, there are no risks, no gambits, no good luck and bad luck. You get what you want all the time. Because of the reloading, you know what the enemy is doing; which wonders they are building, where they will attack. You even know which fights you'll win and which you'll lose. Instead of the combat mouseover odds saying "95%", they might as well say "100%" or "0%" - because if the reloader's favourite unit dies, they can just reload! The reloader doesn't learn to deal with mistakes, they don't learn to deal with bad luck, and they don't learn to deal with surprises. Finally, while I'm sure that some reloaders have a deep understanding of the game mechanics, I doubt there is any correlation.

    -- edit --
    Whether someone uses reload or not is their own choice. As has been mentioned, there are some reasons why someone might find the game more fun if they can reload from time to time. That's fine. Good for them. I'm just trying to get across that reloading is cheating, and that reloading does not make someone a more skilled player!
     
  7. troytheface

    troytheface Deity

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    if one could match players of innate equal ability -with one having lost four games and one that won four reloading and ran that test with different age groups and sexes and computers about seventy six times then one would come to the conclusion that the reloader would have retained more relevant information in regard to how to "manipulate game conditions" and would beat the non reloader hands down.
     
  8. Stoney the I

    Stoney the I Prince

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    :eek:

    never imagined people could see it like that. using world builder is in my book obvious cheating, but loading the game? i'm surprised by that.

    If i have a game thats going well but something preventable happends that i missed for whatever reason (sleepy, ppl talking to me during the game, drunk, etc) and it wrecks that particular game and i should start over, i rather load. because i liked that game and i want to finish it. seems natural to me. i think a poll on this might be interesting :)

    hmm i can go two ways with that statement.

    1. if you've finished an emperor game and reloaded 5 times, for sure, yr not an emperor level player. seen that way, you are not as skilled as the diffculty level you play the game on. agree on that.

    2. But reloading does learn you stuff and will make you a more skilled player imho. you will recognize mistakes as you see the same scenario twice, and are better able to correct it, in the current game and in future games. If i would have restarted every game that went bad in my early days, it would have taken me a lot longer to see what i actually needed to change in my game in order to advance a difficulty level.
     
  9. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    Hey, I'm not trying to say that no one should ever reload. Even though I think it is cheating, I still reload from time to time - for example, I might reload if I intended to change what a city was building, but forgot; or if I moved a unit somewhere by mistake (misclick or something). I also agree that is possible to learn stuff after reloading - maybe more or maybe less than one would learn otherwise.

    It is cheating though; a mild form of cheating if it is used rarely, but a strong form of cheating if it is used a lot. It is a power that the other players don't have. It certainly wouldn't be allowed in multiplayer games...
     
  10. Zello

    Zello Babelfish

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    Meh...I guess it depends on how you (ab)use reloading.

    I reload every now and then - because I play using a laptop and using the touchpad can have unpredictable results at times (tapping = mouse-click, etc.) which has caused me to send units to the wrong square among other mistakes. That's my excuse :D

    It's true that civvers get a lot more agitated about this kind of 'cheating'. If you beat the final stage of a fps, you win. Who cares how many times you died and had to reload from a checkpoint?
    I think the reason is because civ is, at its basics, a board game. You aren't duking it out against a horde of enemies, you're matching wits with distinct players, be it AI or human. Imagine playing chess with someone and taking their Queen, only for him/her to move all the pieces back to how they were 4 turns ago, and move the Queen somewhere else. That's pretty much what we're doing when we reload.
     
  11. Morthis

    Morthis Chieftain

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    Beyond that being a "fact" that was pulled out of a rather dark place, I'm really not seeing it at all.

    If I'm building a wonder and decide against chopping it or using a great engineer when I'm worried that the computer might beat me to it (older tech/etc).

    Without reloading, I get beat by the computer, well crap, shoulda chopped/used GE. When this happens a few times, I'll learn my lesson to either chop/GE or stop wasting my time.

    With reloading I'll just risk it, and if for some reason someone does beat me, I've got a savegame waiting for me to fix the problem. I don't have to ever worry about chopping/using a GE, because I can just wait to see how it turns out and load if I don't get it.

    Same story for combat. I know I still lose a lot of battles with 80%+ chance to win (in fact it seems a lot more than it should be lol).

    Without reloading, my SoD starts to thin out too much (or even gets wiped out), and I have to end my war early or at least pause to reinforce. Bad luck happens, bring extra units to make sure you have enough in case of bad luck.

    With reloading. Bad luck happens? Nah, just reload and this time my units live. I don't have to bring extra units just in case, because I can just reload if fights don't go my way.

    To me it's impossible to imagine anyone arguing otherwise. By definition, the person opposed to reloading has to be more aware of the game conditions, because if he misjudges them, or makes a mistake, it's going to be like that for the rest of the game (which is especially true for wonders).

    The reloader can take all the risk he wants, if things don't go his way, he can just reload. He doesn't have to pay any attention to those finer details of getting a wonder up before the enemy, because load game has him covered if he guessed wrong.

    That said, play the game how you want to. I used to reload a bunch, now I try to avoid it. I think it makes me a better player by not doing it, because I am much more careful about starting wars I'm not sure I can win, or building a wonder I doubt I can complete.
     
  12. Stoney the I

    Stoney the I Prince

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    partly true, it depends where you draw the line for yourself i guess.
    personally i dont go back 40 turns and start a wonder from scratch to pop it with a GE because i couldnt beat the AI by chopping. especially if i miss it by more then 3 or 4 turns, i'll just move on.

    but getting beat by 1 or 2 turns and with a piece of forest i neglected which i could have chopped in time but didnt? i dont want to miss the badly needed hanging gardens (for instance) for the rest of the game cause i was too stupid to chop a forest. restart the entire game? nah. live with it and move on? that will eat away at me every time a city hits his health cap. or the thought i could have used that chopped forest from the missed wonder for setters or an army to conquer a neighbour. ill hear "1 turn! they beat you by 1 turn!" for the rest of time (ingame time offcource hehe). ill reload and chop that damned last piece of forest and be done with it.

    a better example is forgetting something, like karadoc said.
    sometimes i start a golden age with the intension to switch civics and i get distracted and totally forget. then after the golden age it hits me i didnt revolt. yeah ill reload it then. and once I build a mine on stone instead of a quarry lol.

    but your statement is very true in my opinion if you give yourself the option to reload every key decision. save a bunch of savegamefiles and go to any turning point in the game. especially saving before going to war is one of those.

    its personal i guess, and everybody plays like they want to. im fine with the way i play, was just surprised people felt this strongly about reloading a savegame.

    its a game vs AI after all. they wont complain about it. if they do, erase them in worldbuilder lol. (JK)
     
  13. Pir Lan Tota

    Pir Lan Tota Warlord

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    Reloading, while it happens from time to time is a very minor occurance for me, have to support the missing wonder on 1 or two turns. Just lost out on being the first to discover Codes of Law by 7 turns, in this case, I shrugged and continued playing, AI outsmarted me, fair enough.

    What I do reload is if enemy declares war and I am not yet ready for it, in that case, I jump back a few turns, rush an axe or two and see if I can still prevent the game from being over to quickly.

    Meaning I give myself a fighting chance. Yes I should have build more units, yes shame on me for not doing so, but instead of restarting I acknowledge my mistake, try to get a work around and then correct it. War always gets declared and in the long run, restarting usually would be the sounder option, but I perfer to fight it out and see how it goes.
     
  14. szemek77

    szemek77 Prince

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    I can easily understand that reloading can be a sweet temptation, but it kills the game. Ultimately - what kind of satisfaction you can get, if you win that way?

    The most annoying thing is that AI is able to destroy your game which you have played for 10 hours. But we should take it as a "beauty of this game". Cheating would make you lazy - you will not try to play smart, balance your power, think about strenghtening your borders etc.

    The only reload I can agree is when you are playing on higher level and you get very unfortunate location for your first city. Sometimes is just a waste of time to try playing such a game, and you can consider to start again.
     
  15. Morthis

    Morthis Chieftain

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    There's things you can do to prevent being caught off guard though. Obviously keeping some units around is one way, but I find unless I'm actively building up my army to go to war myself, the computer's SoD is usually strong enough to knock over a city unless I reinforce it with more troops. The best way I've found to avoid that is first keeping track of relations (If you have a furious Shaka next to you, you better be prepared for war lol), and having some spies keeping an eye on the edge of your territory (inside hostile/neutral territory). Usually if you see an AI SoD heading your way, and it's not escorting a settler, he's probably taking it to your border to declare war.

    Between that and a good road network, I can usually pull troops from other cities to the target city within 3 turns, which should always be enough to be ready for the attack (between spies as early warning and the AI probably having to walk for at least 2 turns in your territory before he can start sieging your city).
     
  16. Wolfshanze

    Wolfshanze CFC Historian

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    Reloading is just another way of feeding another quarter into the arcade machine! Gives you a few more lives!
     
  17. Psyringe

    Psyringe Scout

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    Imho, the ideological battles that keep being fought over the "Is this cheating and is it okay to do it?" question are entirely pointless.

    Civ4 is a game, its purpose is to be enjoyed. If you enjoy it more when giving yourself free money and/or reloading after something happened which you didn't like, then do so. If you enjoy it more by challenging yourself to win the game on "fair grounds" against the AI, then don't. Both perspectives are perfectly valid. They could also coexist without any problems if people stopped trying to force others to play the game in the way they perceive as "right". ;)

    Personally, in most games I don't "cheat" - I really like it to come back from a previous defeat, or to overcome obstacles that seemed insurmountable during the course of the game. And I won't get this feeling when I prevent such defeats and obstacles to occur in the first place. But I don't turn it into an ideology, and sometimes, when I just want to have a bit of fun in an easy game, I don't see any reason not to "cheat".
     
  18. karadoc

    karadoc AI programmer

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    I'd like to point out that while I certainly consider reloading to be cheating, I'm not trying to tell other people to stop doing it! Cheat as much as you like.

    (However, in my experience, I find that cheating diminishes the fun of a game more quickly than playing without cheats.)
     
  19. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    People, people.

    We need to stop for one second and think harder about what it is we think constitutes "reloading".

    Straight away I can think of at least three different reasons why one might choose to reload, and I think it is fair to say there is a great distinction bewteen each of them.

    1. Careless error. eg. forgot to change civics during golden age, forgot to change the build queue of city X 5 turns ago or accidentally moved a unit to the wrong tile.

    2. Outcomes of a random event. eg. losing a CR3 swordsman to a warrior in a 97% battle

    3. Missing something one wanted, to another player. eg. missing out on the Hanging Gardens because the Incans beat you to it by 2 turns.


    I have tried to list them in the order I believe to be least serious to most serious. In fact I often reload for the first reason as I don't believe it is cheating. Instead I figure that since it's a turn based game one should not have to punish oneself for honest errors.

    But while people will passionately call others cheaters or whatever just because they have loosely referred to the idea of "reloading", there will be endless confusion and pointless misunderstandings.

    If I tried to give names to the motivations for reloading, I would have called the things above, as numbered,

    1. honest-reloading or error-reloading
    2. seed-reloading or luck-reloading
    3. cheating ...ha ha just kidding... try wonder-reloading, tactics-reloading or reward-reloading.

    In any proper debate it should always be made very clear from the beginning precisely what the issue is to debate. In the "Is reloading cheating?" debate both parties have generally failed to address this first question of what reloading really is.
     
  20. oranges

    oranges Prince

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    Someone please include this in "I understand the terms for posting on the forum" form :lol: Whenever a discussion arises, we can just point back to it, saying the issue's been resolved.
     

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