Gods & Kings: Introductory Guide

[ggmoyang]

Like the Commerce tree changes, it is very solid now.

 

[blackcatatonic]

Thanks to everyone who's contributed to this thread; it takes the edge of the wait for us Europeans!

All the new changes sound very positive, particularly the revamped tech tree and more complicated CS gameplay. The ways in which the new Civs interact with this stuff is going to make for some very interesting games.

 

[Andulias]

A very big thank you for putting this lengthy summary together. It seems the expansion is everything I wanted it to be, and I am surprised that the general consensus among reviews was that it didn't have much of an influence.

One thing really bugs me though, and that is Espionage. I don't mind that it's menu based, in fact with 1UPT I prefer it that way, but what;s with the limited options? Steal a tech, intrigue, rig elections, counter-intelligence, that's it. Very disappointing, how's about sabotaging production, poisoning food resources or secretly pillaging a tile improvement? I feel like it's a very big missed opportunity, and Espionage I was looking forward to even more than religion.

 

[blackcatatonic]

^ I get the impression they're testing the water with Espionage a little bit. I wouldn't be surprised if new option get patched in at some point.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

^ I get the impression they're testing the water with Espionage a little bit. I wouldn't be surprised if new option get patched in at some point.

I tend to agree. If I was to suggest new options they'd be:

1) Bring back Pacts of Secrecy-specifically being the undermining of the target civ via espionage.

2) Allow all players to learn of Pacts of Secrecy & 10-turn DOW's via intrigue.

3) Have a special "Counter-Intelligence" mission which plants false information about another major civ (basically a "smear" mission).

4a) Allow Spies to Sabotage production as an initial ability.

4b) Allow Agents & Special Agents to "poison water" (sabotage growth) once you get chemistry.

4c) Allow Agents & Special Agents to destroy improvements & buildings once you get Dynamite.

4d) Allow Special Agents to conduct Bio-terror missions after you get Penicillin.

4e) Allow Special Agents to conduct Nuclear Terrorism missions after Atomic Fission.

Aussie.

 

[Andulias]

I tend to agree. If I was to suggest new options they'd be:

1) Bring back Pacts of Secrecy-specifically being the undermining of the target civ via espionage.

2) Allow all players to learn of Pacts of Secrecy & 10-turn DOW's via intrigue.

3) Have a special "Counter-Intelligence" mission which plants false information about another major civ (basically a "smear" mission).

4a) Allow Spies to Sabotage production as an initial ability.

4b) Allow Agents & Special Agents to "poison water" (sabotage growth) once you get chemistry.

4c) Allow Agents & Special Agents to destroy improvements & buildings once you get Dynamite.

4d) Allow Special Agents to conduct Bio-terror missions after you get Penicillin.

4e) Allow Special Agents to conduct Nuclear Terrorism missions after Atomic Fission.

Aussie.

This has got to be one of the best posts I have read in a while. Counter intelligence would be a fantastic addition, and tying up Diplomacy even further with the tech tree would add to the game a much needed sense of depth and progression. A big thumbs up, and I really hope this reaches someone from Firaxis.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

I can't wait to get my hands on this game. The balance changes to units alone sound awesome. Ironclads look like they're really going be worthwhile.

 

[The_J]

Because you guys did not even give a hint that you're in the beta test group .
Else: Well done .

 

[Camikaze]

The thing with espionage in G&K is that there's no actual cost to you involved, besides risk and opportunity cost flowing from that. It's not like you actually have to invest in anything to reap the benefits of espionage, or even that you have to produce something like espionage points in order to perform actions. This may be a reason why some of those things may not fit into the current espionage system (though not saying that they couldn't).

 

[MadDjinn]

Because you guys did not even give a hint that you're in the beta test group .
Else: Well done .

A very big thank you for putting this lengthy summary together. It seems the expansion is everything I wanted it to be, and I am surprised that the general consensus among reviews was that it didn't have much of an influence.

Yeah, they really missed out on a tonne of changes. That might be partly 2K marketing issues (not knowing what changed to be able to get reviewers to talk about it). There's stuff that even *we* haven't written/talked about in this guide.

-- Such as the cost for purchasing tiles has been dropped to a smaller cost/increment (so you won't see 200g tiles come up until very very late in the game).

Yes, espionage is certainly not as good as religion is in G&K. Intrigue in particular I wouldn't say is great at the moment.

Agreed. Though, the AI should still be getting information about what wonders you are building (in the city where the spy is) just like you can and be able to 'scout' your city via the spy. There's a lot that can be done to 'boost' the AIs usage of the Intrigue.

In general though, I'd still like a bit more information available. But, modders will figure out the espionage basics soon and start providing mods that give them more functionality.

 

[Camikaze]

Yeah, agreed on all points. This guide deals with the new features, but only just scrapes the surface in terms of the tweaks and balancing that has gone on. Reviews (and, well, I guess this guide too, given the last sentence) seem more interested in the main features, ignoring the smaller stuff that, when taken in total, is just as, if not more, important.

RE: social policies - you didn't seem to mention the fact that Great Artists from faith via Freedom are way more useful than Great Generals or Admirals via Autocracy (unless I missed it).

 

[MadDjinn]

Yeah, agreed on all points. This guide deals with the new features, but only just scrapes the surface in terms of the tweaks and balancing that has gone on. Reviews (and, well, I guess this guide too, given the last sentence) seem more interested in the main features, ignoring the smaller stuff that, when taken in total, is just as, if not more, important.

RE: social policies - you didn't seem to mention the fact that Great Artists from faith via Freedom are way more useful than Great Generals or Admirals via Autocracy (unless I missed it).

sooo many small detail changes...

I didn't mention that as it's slightly irrelevant If you're going Dom, then you're going Autocracy (generally) so you don't really take the choice. Besides, I was trying to keep it 'short' and not get into all of the possible strategies and strategic options. Not sure how well that worked

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

As far as costs go, you could have an extra time cost, the "cost" of needing to use an experienced agent, the greater diplomatic penalty if caught, & possibly some kind of gold cost for certain missions. All perfectly do-able without any radical changes in the rules ;-).

 

[GoodSarmatian]

MadJinn, your videos are awesome. So much attention to detail and potential strategies.
However I think you made one small mistake in the cityy state video.
When you said that shared religion slows influence degradation with CS by 25% you said it stacks with Patronage and Greece's UA so that Greece wouldn't lose any influence over time with a CS. IIRC that's not how Patronage stacks with Hellenic League. Greece's base influence degradation with non-hostile CS on normal speed is -0,5 per turn, and if they adopt Patronage this is reduced by 25% to -0,37 (or,38).
So, if Greece is friendly or alied with a CS that has the same religion, and has adopted Patronage, they would lose 0,25 per turn. That's still very powerful, but marginally less OP than truly eternal friendship.

 

[MadDjinn]

MadJinn, your videos are awesome. So much attention to detail and potential strategies.
However I think you made one small mistake in the cityy state video.
When you said that shared religion slows influence degradation with CS by 25% you said it stacks with Patronage and Greece's UA so that Greece wouldn't lose any influence over time with a CS. IIRC that's not how Patronage stacks with Hellenic League. Greece's base influence degradation with non-hostile CS on normal speed is -0,5 per turn, and if they adopt Patronage this is reduced by 25% to -0,37 (or,38).
So, if Greece is friendly or alied with a CS that has the same religion, and has adopted Patronage, they would lose 0,25 per turn. That's still very powerful, but marginally less OP than truly eternal friendship.

that was changed.

or at least, I'd have to go check in game again to see it, but afaik, it's now 0 loss/turn with that combination.

 

[kungming2]

I have a question about DLC. Does it still work with G&K? e.g. Ancient Wonders?

Definitely, they all still work. But similarly to my experience in vanilla (or it could just be because I was playing with only new civs on the map) the AI seems to prioritize the Statue of Zeus and the Temple of Artemis. Nobody bothered building the Mausoleum of Halicarnassus until deep into the classical era.

 

[rakun666]

City States
"On first discovery of a Religious City-State you will receive Faith points."
It would be nice if this would also work for other types of City-States granting culture, gold, units, +1 population if you meet them first.

Quest: Build a route
You normally do that and then just remove the road. There should actually be a trade route with that city state(or any other city-state for that matter), earning you some money(if you are friendly with them or allied). There should also be trade routes with other civs if you have a friendship agreement with them(or there should be an actual trade agreement in the game). So the road networks on the map would look a little more realistic(because there are sometimes almost no roads build from the human player).

There could be more quests to encourage exploration, find a river, an island, other continents...
Or just a general quest who explored more tiles like the religious or culture based ones.

 

[Ekmek]

City States
"On first discovery of a Religious City-State you will receive Faith points."
It would be nice if this would also work for other types of City-States granting culture, gold, units, +1 population if you meet them first.

Yes its anice change. But it does work for gold. too bad not for other yields

Quest: Build a route
You normally do that and then just remove the road. There should actually be a trade route with that city state(or any other city-state for that matter), earning you some money(if you are friendly with them or allied). There should also be trade routes with other civs if you have a friendship agreement with them(or there should be an actual trade agreement in the game). So the road networks on the map would look a little more realistic(because there are sometimes almost no roads build from the human player).

There could be more quests to encourage exploration, find a river, an island, other continents...
Or just a general quest who explored more tiles like the religious or culture based ones.

all decents ideas, sorry they didn't make it in

 

[grandad1982]

I'm constantly impressed by the effort people in the CFC put into thesse things!

Thank you.

 

[bcaiko]

Wow, guys, the work you've done here is amazing. Quick question on Religion: the Great Prophet threshold is what on Standard? And does it go up each time someone founds a Religion?