[BTS] Going for 1st prince win

[dankok8]

Great job @Hot_Dawg. Like others said you're doing well and absorbing all the advice from on here some of which will really start paying off beyond Prince when you move up. One thing that's really important on higher levels is focus. What is your plan in this game? As in what victory condition are you pursuing? Do you plan on attacking a neighbour? Since you have Ivory, War Elephant + Catapult attack could be very good (it's called "elepult").

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Thanks everyone, I'm happy to hear I'm making progress. I'm trying to keep all the advice given in mind and take my time with each turn, while really thinking about what I'm doing. I'm on T88, a few quick bullet points to sum up my moves for the past 9 turns

1. T81 Boudica asked for agriculture, weak tech and she's aggressive so I gave it to her
2. T83 deGaulle demanded writing, I gave it to him
3. T85 I trade writing to Boudica for sailing. Reason is I want to get a lighthouse going in Frankfuet before the library
4. T88 Capac asked for alpha, I don't give it to him

With that, a few things. First, your thoughts on the settle spot for Suttgard? The reason I picked that spot is because I was researching currency for 3 turns, but switched to IW once I realized I wouldn't be able to trade for it. So I figured I could at least chop the forest hill in the meanwhile. That said though, after looking at your save migalhone I do see why you recommended currency first. One thing I noticed is that I have peace treaties with deGaulle and Boudica, is that something to worry about? I'm also still not sure which cities should and shouldn't have libraries. Does it depend mostly on how many workable cottages the city will have? As far as espionage weight, should I put 1 point on anyone here? Finally, dankok8 I'm not really sure which win to go for, maybe domination? At what point do you start to consider which win to go after?

Migalhone I do have some questions about your save

1. Why build workers in your new cities? I'm assuming because you can chop them?
2. I'm guessing Boudica and deGaulle didn't ask for techs in your game, if so how come they asked me and not you?
3. You build a mine in Cologne, was that solely because you planned ahead to build wealth there?
4. On that note, is the general rule that cities with a lot of commerce build research, hammers build wealth? Which would hamburg build in this situation?
5. I noticed in Berlin you improved all the Ivory tiles. Should I have done the same? I just figured I only needed one for the time being.

By the way I forgot to address this before, but yes I have BAT/BULL mod. Although I don't think I have BULL turned on.

Thanks in advance to you and everyone else who helps out

Spoiler :

 

[SittinDown]

'm guessing Boudica and deGaulle didn't ask for techs in your game, if so how come they asked me and not you?

I'm curious about that one too. That's some very early begging. Perhaps because you teched alpha and then didn't trade anything?

On that note, is the general rule that cities with a lot of commerce build research, hammers build wealth? Which would hamburg build in this situation?

'Build' research isn't quite right, since building research is boosted by hammer help, like forges, and not libraries. (Same with wealth). but commerce cities will build libraries. high hammer cities can build wealth / research, or use fail gold [fail gold can be more efficient because of extra production bonuses]. ...........you forgot the important one - cities that have a couple of food tiles and not much else - they build granaries, and then usually make lots of units, or overflow their whips into fail gold.

I noticed in Berlin you improved all the Ivory tiles. Should I have done the same? I just figured I only needed one for the time being.

It's a nice tile on green land - 2 / 2 / 1, so, it's good for worker or settler production - twice as good as grass cottages. It's a decent tile to work while helper cities grow the cottage until the capital can grow into working both the ivory and the cottages. .......other nice thing about surplus resources is that you can trade them to your rivals - which has lots of benefits.

 

[dankok8]

@Hot_Dawg

When you decide on a victory condition will vary from game to game but you should definitely have a plan long before 1 AD. You may not be concretely set on domination but you should be planning a potential war with elepult as soon as 50-60 turns in. Nice thing about planning a domination victory is that it often sets you up with enough good land that you can win Diplo or Space instead. Of course there is such a thing as being too rigid in your strategic choice (i.e. seeing Stone in BFC and deciding to go on a wonder spam culture victory without noticing you're sandwiched between Shaka and Monty) but generally most players who aren't experts lack focus. I think the decision making aspect of this game with regards to long-term strategy is very hard to teach but very important.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I did make one trade to capac for fish and myst in exchange for writing, and both of those AI like capac. Are the wealth and failed gold cities depend on how many plain hills are in that city? Do I need to build more farms in order to work them or is it better to stick with cottages? What about GP farms? And dankok8, I didn't realize I should know that early what win I should pursue. I still don't know which win I should aim for in this game. Sitting Bull is the biggest enemy civ so far with 7 cities, the rest are pretty small. But there are 2 other civs I haven't met.

I'm on T95 now. I decided to try to be a little more aggressive with whipping this turnset. I just want to make sure I understand this correctly. When I look to whip in one city, I know I shouldn't whip away power tiles. But what about whipping cottages that are being worked? For this turnset I wasn't sure so I avoided whipping away worked cottages. I did whip in Munich for the library, because it was going to take 55 turns I think. Also the only reason I'm building a spearmen is because I worked the iron mine while building a warrior, and I forgot it changes to spearmen when it's done. By the way did I set myself back a lot by not going currency before IW?

Besides all that, I have my settler for City 9 ready, screenshot in spoiler. What do you guys think I should do here? I wanted to settle 1N but I can't because Essen is within 2 tiles. I was thinking maybe 1E of sugar, that way I have cows in my circle, but I don't know. Should I just SIP? Also I marked where I was considering City 10. There's a barb city nearby so my plan was to build 3 chariots, whip a settler in Frankfurt, take out the barb city and hopefully settle in my marked spot within 1-2 turns, if not the same turn. The only thing I'm worried about is Boudica is going to take that city herself before I can do all that. Also Boudica and deGaulle have canceled their peace treaties with me. Thoughts?

Spoiler :

 

[lymond]

Sir Dawg....try to get in the habit of avoiding trades for very cheap (or useless - like archery) techs. Trade caps exist in game where AIs will stop trading with you for a while. So save trading for important stuff. Concept gets more important as you move up levels.

some of these city spots are a bit questionable to me.

you really should have fogbusters in S and SE ...at least an axe down there. Shame you lost a nice spot due to barb city...though you could capture it.

turn your scoreboard on - second button to left of globe

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Here's another screenshot. So I should've researched fishing and myst instead of trading for it? And yeah I was so focused on my cities I didn't think of building more fog busters. I'm still not totally sure how that works if I'm being honest. I could move this barb I have onto the stone and move the Essen warrior further south? Which spot exactly are you referring too? Sorry I'm not too sure.

Spoiler :

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Any unit you have (and this includes settlers and workers too) has a 5 x 5 grid of squares around it where a barb cannot spawn. So you can effectively place units in a way to minimize barb spawns. And then when one comes wandering into your field of view, you'll have ample time to deal with it. They also can't build barb cities in that 5 x 5 area.

You can use the dot mapping tool (alt-x) to get a good idea of which tiles your spawn busting unit is spawn busting. Just remember that the four corners are also protected in addition to the tiles shown with the dot mapping tool.

Spawnbusting a landmass such as the one in your screenshots is tricky because there is so much land. In a case like this, you kind of have to pick and choose which areas you want to spawnbust, because you aren't going to be able to spawnbust everything. Also remember that other civ's units spawbust as well, as do their cities (obviously).

 

[Hot_Dawg]

Does that increase tiles I haven't revealed? Generally speaking how many spawn busters should I have? Since the AI's cities spawnbust, it's just open land I need to worry about right?

Also I just realized I forgot to post my last save, I updated my post. Here is it in this one anyway.

 

[dankok8]

Any unit you have (and this includes settlers and workers too) has a 5 x 5 grid of squares around it where a barb cannot spawn. So you can effectively place units in a way to minimize barb spawns. And then when one comes wandering into your field of view, you'll have ample time to deal with it. They also can't build barb cities in that 5 x 5 area.

You can use the dot mapping tool (alt-x) to get a good idea of which tiles your spawn busting unit is spawn busting. Just remember that the four corners are also protected in addition to the tiles shown with the dot mapping tool.

Spawnbusting a landmass such as the one in your screenshots is tricky because there is so much land. In a case like this, you kind of have to pick and choose which areas you want to spawnbust, because you aren't going to be able to spawnbust everything. Also remember that other civ's units spawbust as well, as do their cities (obviously).

Actually 5x5 area around fogbusters applies to barb units which cannot spawn in that area. However barb cities can spawn on any tile that is in the fog of war.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

Actually 5x5 area around fogbusters applies to barb units which cannot spawn in that area. However barb cities can spawn on any tile that is in the fog of war.

But the entire city would have to be in the FOW right? So the only tiles "in danger", so to speak, would be in your spawnbuster's outer ring, if they are on flat land then, correct?

And thanks for letting me know, I didn't know about that.

 

[lymond]

Nope just the center tile. I’ve had barb cities spawn 2 tiles from my buster on numerous occasions.

@Hot_Dawg cities/culture do not spawnbust. You can assume that barbs do not spawn 1 tile from any culture simply as those tiles are “visible “.

 

[Willem V]

But the entire city would have to be in the FOW right? So the only tiles "in danger", so to speak, would be in your spawnbuster's outer ring, if they are on flat land then, correct?

And thanks for letting me know, I didn't know about that.

IIRC it was tested recently at this forum and the outcome was that a barb city can only spawn if a barb unit is present on the tile that becomes the barb city center. The barb unit is effectively functioning as a settler unit. As I understood, this is why cities can appear in fog busted areas, as barb units from non fog busted parts move in and settle. I am at work right now so I can look up the thread later, to double check the info.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

I'm on T105, I'm not sure how well I played these turns but here it is. For the most part, I just focused on my workers and my city tiles. Didn't whip as much this turnset as last set. I decided to SIP for my 9th city, took the barb city this turn for the 10th city, and next turn I am ready to settle my 11th city. I'm still not fully understanding which cities should build wealth and which should built research. Is research built in cities with a complete lack of hammers, thus you work cottages and run scientists, or is it dependent on how many workable tiles are in that city? Or am I off completely? And how do I decide whether or not a city needs a library? One thing I thought was kinda weird is that no religion has spread throughout my civ. Does it depend on the leader in terms of how they spread their religion? For techs, after currency I decided to go with calender. Reason being so I can work my sugar and spice for the increased happiness. But should I have build more cottages while I researched those, or does it not matter that much? I'm not too sure what to research after this however. I was thinking either construction or metal casting and then machinery. Depending on whether or not I'm going to stay peaceful.

The other thing I'm wondering is how I can win this game at this point. My first thought was to scout Boudica, which I did, in the hopes that sitting bull was next to her. That way I could take her cities and then move on to capitulate him, which I'd have to guess would trigger a domination win? My backup plan was to instead take out capac and reassess what to do after that. But deGallue just recently converted to Confucianism, so now I don't really know what to do here. Anyone have any ideas? Other than that, your thoughts on how I'm doing so far? Thanks in advance

Spoiler :

 

[dankok8]

@Hot_Dawg

I looked at your save and you're obviously doing a great job expanding. 10 cities when most other AI's are at 2-4 puts you in a great position!

I did notice some things though and I'll address them:

1) The biggest error I see is not managing diplomacy. Almost all civs are indifferent with you and you could be in trouble if you get attacked.

2) You're not running any Specialists in your cities. By this time you should have already popped at least one Great Scientist (GS). Run some Scientists especially when your cities are at happy cap and many don't have good tiles to work. Maybe Cologne because it's got lots of food. Hamburg would have been the best spot for GS farm but you overwhipped that poor city.

3) Your happy cap is very low. Calendar was thus a good tech to research but you only have Spices and Sugar from what I can see. Try to trade for something and generally Open Borders with all AI's because it allows trade routes.

 

[Hot_Dawg]

As far as diplomacy, anything you'd recommend in this situation? The only thing I can think of is waiting for Confucianism to spread in my civ, and convert. Then maybe expand westward and take out Boudica? Besides that I don't know. What should I have done up until now for diplomacy? I know I can trade for diplomacy points, but is that a bad idea?

As for specialists, I wasn't sure if I should've ran specialists or worked the cottages. I'm guessing it's better to run specialists? Should I go for caste system next? And when you say trade, do you mean for a resource or a tech? I can't trade for any happy resources and the techs the other civs have won't help there.

For open borders, you're saying I should open border with everyone, or should I pick a side first and avoid the civs they're not happy with? It seems like I'm gonna have to pick a side either way as everyone is pissed off with someone. Or should I agree with everyone and avoid the ones with multiple worst enemies?

 

[dankok8]

As far as diplomacy, anything you'd recommend in this situation? The only thing I can think of is waiting for Confucianism to spread in my civ, and convert. Then maybe expand westward and take out Boudica? Besides that I don't know. What should I have done up until now for diplomacy? I know I can trade for diplomacy points, but is that a bad idea?

As for specialists, I wasn't sure if I should've ran specialists or worked the cottages. I'm guessing it's better to run specialists? Should I go for caste system next? And when you say trade, do you mean for a resource or a tech? I can't trade for any happy resources and the techs the other civs have won't help there.

For open borders, you're saying I should open border with everyone, or should I pick a side first and avoid the civs they're not happy with? It seems like I'm gonna have to pick a side either way as everyone is pissed off with someone. Or should I agree with everyone and avoid the ones with multiple worst enemies?

Religion is a big one but none spread so far which is unusual. See what the leaders' favorite civics are and try to switch to those. Accept their requests. Those are ways to build your relationships with them.

It's not between Cottages and Specialists. You can run predominantly Cottages but have one city running Scientists. Not popping any Great People is very suboptimal and will set you back.

Open Borders with everyone but don't trade resources and techs with people who are someone's worst enemy.

 

[Lennier]

I'm still not fully understanding which cities should build wealth and which should built research. Is research built in cities with a complete lack of hammers, thus you work cottages and run scientists, or is it dependent on how many workable tiles are in that city?[/spoiler]

Both building wealth and building research only depend on the number of hammers a city produces and the multipliers in the city. (Doesn't depend on the amount of commerce the city produces--that gets converted to gold and beakers via the sliders and then multiplied by the applicable buildings.) So once you've decided a city has nothing useful to build, have it build wealth (if you have discovered currency). That way you can run the slider higher and put the commerce through your -multiplying building(s) (library). Only build research if either 1) you have alphabet but not currency or 2) you're making a profit at 100% slider. Deciding to build wealth (or science) in a city is independent of what tiles/specialists the city will work.

 

[migalhone]

Migalhone I do have some questions about your save

1. Why build workers in your new cities? I'm assuming because you can chop them?
2. I'm guessing Boudica and deGaulle didn't ask for techs in your game, if so how come they asked me and not you?
3. You build a mine in Cologne, was that solely because you planned ahead to build wealth there?
4. On that note, is the general rule that cities with a lot of commerce build research, hammers build wealth? Which would hamburg build in this situation?
5. I noticed in Berlin you improved all the Ivory tiles. Should I have done the same? I just figured I only needed one for the time being.

By the way I forgot to address this before, but yes I have BAT/BULL mod. Although I don't think I have BULL turned on.

Others may have answered some of these points but let me give my 2:

1- i usually put new cities building workers because usually i need extra workers on the expansion phase, if there are forests around to chop great, if not is no big deal.

2- Been a while since i've last picked this save, can't recall if the AIs demanded a lot of stuff. Maybe i've had one or 2 requests, dunno. Its kinda RNG based, so perhaps you've been unlucky.

3- on my save, Cologne has good production potential, and since i always strive to get Alpha-Currency on the first 100 turns, i knew that eventually this city would build research (before currency) and wealth after, so once the green tiles had been cottaged (to ensure i kept teching at a good pace and help pay for the quick expansion rate) i built a mine to make use of available work turns.

4- once you have currency and assuming no more settling spots are available and no more workers are needed, any city can build research/wealth. Its just that since hills cant be cottaged, might as well mine them, since machinery, the tech that allows the windmill improvement, is a long time away.

5- grassland ivory tiles give 221, which means its a good tile for building settlers/workers. From what i recall, i improved one, then cottaged the riverside grassland tiles, then went back to the remaining unimproved ivory tiles, once other cities could work the cottages while the capital used the ivory tiles for settlers/workers, and warriors when growing cities (the tundra to the south is a source of barb trouble, as you probably experienced. More warriors help dealing with this)

I would have settled Essen one more tile east, to save that riverside grassland and to get horses on the first culture ring.

@lymond yes, some of the settling spots are questionable, this start has enough good land for 5-6 nice cities, 9-10 cities is over-the-top greed. My initial advice to @Hot_Dawg was to show him how much one can expand early on, without compromising tech too much, on this difficulty level. I find it's a good way to experience how chopping/whipping works, so you can get settlers/workers/warriors/granaries out in order to secure the available land, improve it, while getting the essential techs (food techs+BW+writing+alpha+currency) on the first 100 turns.

EDIT: I really should pick the save and continue it, i think both me and Hot Dawg were off to a good start

 

[Fippy]

I did proof (but basically knew anyways) in another thread that barb cities can only spawn where barbs can also pop.
So cities cannot spawn in a 100% fogbusted area (fog doesn't matter) unless there's still a roaming barb from earlier.
In other words: if all barb units are killed you are fine with fogged tiles, if they are covered by a spawnbuster area.