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[BTS] Going for 1st prince win

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Hot_Dawg, Jun 25, 2020.

  1. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    I played the Toku game until T101. Not sure if you can get much out of this, but at least you can see what is possible.
    Spoiler :
    What you see here is what the workers should most of the time be doing. Cities are working improved tiles (I count oasis as improved) and workers are chopping settlers/workers. Kyoto is building a boat for the 4th city. Improving the food asap is so important you should have a work boat ready for the coastal fish spots!

    Civ4ScreenShot0245.JPG

    11T later 3rd and 4th are founded. Now it's the time to start Mids (have masonry of course). This is why I need to build mines to capital, even if they are not great in the long run. Sailing will connect my cities and soon connect to Mansa, so no need to waste precious worker turns on roads. I have two warriors, which is enough for this date. :hammers: should go to workers/settlers, not to units!

    Civ4ScreenShot0246.JPG

    12T later I still have only 4 cities, but both the settler and the boat are on the way. Tokyo is putting :hammers: into GW for fail gold, I definitely don't intend to finish GW on this difficulty. Mids is soon done so my :)-cap will get a +3 boost. Satsuma improved food first, now improving floodplain, stone is the least important tile there.

    Civ4ScreenShot0247.JPG

    19T later I've expanded to 6 cities and will settle 7th next turn in NW of the screenshot. Settler is accompanied by a worker and a warrior. I traded aggressively (alpha to Mansa for IW+ part of medi, medi to Saladin for ph, writing to someone for some crap like hunt+myst) just to get value now as I'll be leaving them far behind pretty soon. Chose to go CoL, which maybe wasn't best. In general though, CoL-CS -line is good. I think currency is rather overrated (unless you have say over 10 cities).

    Civ4ScreenShot0249.JPG

    Soon Shaka finished the GW and I got some 370:gold: for failing it. Got a GE and chose to go MC and bulbed machinery, mainly for fun. Now going towards CS so I'll have Samurais before 1AD.

    Anyway, mostly this is about empire management and not tech path. I don't really know what it is in particular that you did wrong, but you didn't grow your cities to the :)-cap. Too many buildings I suppose? I have two libraries, zero monuments.

    Civ4ScreenShot0248.JPG
     

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    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  2. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    SB game:
    Both SIP and settling on banana seem reasonable. I guess SIP is less of a gamble. Why would you go for the wheel before mining-BW though? Roads are mainly useless. Even if your two first cities are disconnected, the difference is only 2:commerce:, which is certainly something, but tolerable.
    I'd likely start a settler at size 3, yes. Size 2 or 4 isn't unthinkable though.
     
  3. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Yep, nanners is an interesting option due to the bonus 1:food: to center tile for faster worker. Should be 12t worker vs. 15t worker. The downside is nanners usually have jungle somewhere near so you may be moving toward jungle, but can't tell. Def forest N of banana .and flat unforested/jungled left and right of that. If nothing else though the faster worker may not be that important since pastures take only 4 turns each and BW still far off at that point with workers having nothing to do for quite some time. But faster food is faster food. I'm inclined to just SIP here...warrior move not going to help much either way.

    Little primer on whipping since we talk about it but haven't really discussed how it works or how to make it work, nor why we say food is production:
    (Involves math)

    First off, start to get used to the city screen. Familiarize yourself with the information it provides as it is very important. Note the tool tips when you hover over certain things. Of note is the whip button in the bottom right which I'm sure you are aware of by now. When you hover on it it provides some interesting info of note.

    Next, in the top center is the food and production bars. Food bar shows your city's growth and how the food surplus is filling the bar each turn until the next pop point. But more germane right now to this particular discussion is the production bar, which shows the hammers gradually going toward the item in production until complete. Hover over the bar and you will see this progress.

    Just to the right of the production bar note that hammer icon :hammers:. There is a tool tip there with info such as the city's Base Production and Total Production on a given turn.

    Now for example, when you settle Cahokia (assuming SIP), queue up a warrior and look at this info. You will see the city has 1:hammers: base production. This comes from the center tile - the city is working by default the pigs tile that obviously has no :hammers:.

    Now note the food bar. On the left you see 5-2:food: = +3:food:. What this means is that the city has total 5:food: (2 from city center and 3 from pigs tile). The single citizen consumes 2:food: (each citizen consumes 2:food:). Thus, the city has a food surplus of 3:food:. When not building a worker or settler, such as a warrior, the food surplus is stored by the city for growth, which you can see each turn on the food bar.

    As you are aware, workers and settlers prevent a city from growing. That's because workers and settlers are built with food and hammers. The food surplus goes toward the production of those 2 types of units.

    Now queue the normal worker you would produce. Look at production bar and you will see 3:food: + 1:hammers:. Hover just right of that and see 4:hammers: total production with still 1:hammers: base production and 3:food: surplus converted to 3:hammers: because this is a worker. That is one reason food is production.

    But it's even more complex because we whip settlers and workers too convert that food into even more production.

    Each citizen is worth 30:hammers: when whipped. So 2 citizens are worth a whopping 60H. Now think on that a bit. Right now Cahokia has 1:hammers: base production, but in soon after BW you can 4>2 whip a settler getting 60H from those 2 citizens applied to the settler You can only whip the # of citizen equal to half your current population. Thus, one cannot whip 2 citizens until size 4. That is why you hear sampsa say whipping as size 4 or 6 (3pop)

    Whipping also generally produces overflow hammers (OF) from these whips as current production plus whipped citizens exceeds the cost of production for the unit (I'll explain this more later)

    But first note this, as you set up whips be cognizant of the whipping points in the production cycle of a unit. For example, a settler production cost is 100:hammers:. Let's assume a 2 pop whip here. A settler with >= 70:hammers: of accumulated production at size 4 cannot whip 2 citizens, it becomes a 1 pop whip because you equaled or exceeded 30:hammers: left on the cost - the value of 1 whipped citizen. So between 40H and 69H allows for a 2pop whip of a settler at size 4 or greater. Between 10H and 39H allows a 3pop whip at size 6 or greater.
    (and I should note that Imperialistic trait changes this due to settler production bonus)

    Excess hammers from a whip become OF which can be applied to the next unit. We can go into more detail on this in this game as you get close to the point of whipping your first settler.

    On another note, I would explain that one general likes to whip multiple citizens like with settlers. First off, regardless of # of citizens whipped you get only the 1:mad: for 10 turns, so this helps alleviate that issue. Second, it is simply faster and you want faster. And by virtue of that you can get more OF.

    As an aside, some time ago I bookmarked an old post of mine where I discussed some whipping stuff. The post includes 3 links to separate but related examples of the same subject. You may like to peruse this at your leisure and apply the concepts. But it should certainly help to explain more what I discussed above. Found here:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/going-from-noble-tooo.468987/#post-11671673

    One last note, this whipping thing is why the Granary is the most important building. Gran speeds city growth significantly and that means more whipping and more turning food into production. And...well...slavery/whipping is the single most powerful mechanic in this game.

    (and yes...I realize that what I wrote is probably a lot of info to absorb ..ha..but gotta start somewhere. We can guide you on this stuff)
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2020
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  4. Hot_Dawg

    Hot_Dawg Chieftain

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    Thanks a lot guys, Sampsa for taking the time to play my save and Lymond for going into this much detail for whips. I'm looking at the save now and I'll definitely read up all the posts you made about whipping. It definitely makes me understand how it works much better. But I do want to get the concept down solid, hopefully in this game. I've always felt I'm not doing it correctly. A couple of things I don't understand though. How many workers should I have per city? I've been going by the 1.5 rule in Sisiutil's guide, is that not necessary? That said, I'll try to have the same approach in this game that you did Sampsa. I think I get the idea but I want to learn as much as possible here.

    Here's the new game so far
    Spoiler :

    I decided to settle on the nanners, truthfully because I felt there would be more grassland to work with, and worst case if there was too much jungle I could just go back the next turn. I stopped here after both worker and AH finished the same turn, I'm not too sure what to tech next. I was thinking of doing TW->pottery, then going mining->BW. Reason being that I don't have any mines in the BFC and I don't want my worker to be in limbo while I'm researching BW. Is this line of thinking incorrect or maybe I'm missing something? Unless maybe I should go settler instead of warrior here? I also have Napoleon to the west. I haven't given any thought to any possible 2nd or 3rd city yet.
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  5. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Try to forget everything you've read in Sisiutil's guide. By this I don't mean that everything said there is wrong, just that it's much easier to learn "tabula rasa". 1.5 workers/city is not the worst advice ever for a beginner, as maybe someone has something like 2 workers for 8 cities and wonders what is he doing wrong. 12 is better than 2 surely. In most of my games, I'd say something like 7 workers for 8 cities is enough. However, it depends. For example many coastal cities require barely any worker turns. A city in the middle of the forest/jungle might require 2 or 3 workers. Also, it depends a bit on how well you are managing those workers. If I had to give you a number, I guess that would be something like 1.15 workers per city. :lol:

    In the SB game, settling on the banana was a gamble and the result was close to the worst imaginable, mostly because as you point out, the worker has nothing to do. I wouldn't blame you for re-starting and SIP. If you choose to continue though, I wouldn't go wheel-pottery. The thing is, early game is about expansion. Roads, cottages and granaries won't help you expand. I'd go mining-BW and accept the loss of some worker turns. Start a settler size 2 (because you have exactly two tiles worth working), try to time growing so that you'll have a warrior out on the same turn as growth happens.

    Actually, what I'd recommend is starting a new game. This map is not great for learning, as everything is simply inconvenient. The location of the horse, both S and N fish...
     
  6. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Wheel after AH is fine, taking out close AIs should also be part of learning and you can do so with chariots.
    1se of horsies makes a decent city for this goal with settler at size 2.

    I understand the focus on BW etc but this start also looks very nice for showing why Prince AIs can be rushed and Chariots are great units for that.
    Also wheel sometimes works really well and does so here, only wanting maps with BW first looks counterproductive to me.
     
  7. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Yeh, that's not a bad idea. Maybe I (and the OP to a less extent) had too much of a preconceived idea for this game (=how to set up an empire). So wheel-mining-BW I guess. Not great with only 4 forest, but should be good enough to take out prince AI. :)
     
  8. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Hey HD - Just a quick note here to let you know that you can practice the worker half move trick with the new worker. Pigs is the best tile so should be improved first, but the worker would move 2 tiles to reach and stop. Instead you can put 1t into the cow pasture, then complete pig pasture, and back to complete the 3t left on the cows.

    Yeah Sampsa, I had the same preconceived idea as well...ha...then I played a bit of this game to familiarize with the map (I SIP'd), and took out Nappy @ 2000AD after stealing a worker, then someone else a bit later.
     
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  9. Hot_Dawg

    Hot_Dawg Chieftain

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    I see there's a split of opinion in whether to continue this game, so what I'm gonna do is start a new game and play the SB game on my own. I am curious though, since you guys did play some turns of this game. What is the best approach to taking someone out this early? Because I'm assuming I'd settle the 2nd city near Nap, spam axemen(dog soldiers in this situation), and take his out? If so what do you do with all those units afterwards? I'm taking your advice and trying to unlearn pretty much anything I've read on WA or done in past games.

    Here's the new game, I rolled Germany this time. Do you guys think I should SIP or move my settler? If I SIP, I'm thinking aguculture->BW->-AH->TW->pottery. Worker->warrior for units. If this map sucks though let me know I'll make a new game.
    Spoiler :

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  10. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    SB game: Fippy was suggesting settling by the horse and researching wheel in order to be able to build chariots. They are as strong as dogs but move with double speed. Don't waste :hammers: on barracks, just build some 4 chariots as fast as possible.
     
  11. dankok8

    dankok8 Elected World Leader

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    You have Corn, two early sources of happiness Gold + Ivory and possibly more in the fog. It doesn't suck at all! :lol:
     
  12. sampsa

    sampsa Ghost

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    Fred game: I think SIP is fine. I'd move my scout on gold before making a decision though, maybe a better spot is revealed down south. Grass ivories are not bad tiles, but nothing great either.
     
  13. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Ha..that is a very nice Freddy start! This is a power start.

    Yep, probably SIP here since I see no advantages of moving here, but as sampsa said, move on gold first just in case.

    Animal Husbandry is questionable here unless resources present themselves...too early to say. Otherwise, Ag>BW>POT would certainly work well here.

    (Note on SB game: Dogs would clobber warriors, but if Nappy gets Archery by the time some arrive you basically hit a brick wall. Dogs are really not attack units on higher levels. Chariots though are cheap and fast)
     
  14. Hot_Dawg

    Hot_Dawg Chieftain

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    Lol, no I meant if the map sucks in general, not the starting spot. Generally speaking, is it always preferably to use chariots if you have horse and they don't have a UU spearmen this early? As for this current game, here's what I'm working with. I'm on T21, De Gaulle in the north and Capac in the east. I don't see copper anywhere so far. I marked where I think the 2nd city should go. Any thoughts here? Did I make a mistake going BW so early? I don't have much forest to work with, now that I think about it. If you guys think I should re-play any round of turns, let me know.
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  15. Hot_Dawg

    Hot_Dawg Chieftain

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    Oh okay, thanks for letting me know lymond. I was kinda worried I researched BW too early. So you think I should go pottery before AH?

    As far chariot rushes, I guess I never really looked at it that way. I just always thought the idea was to spam a ton of axemen, as in like 10-12 and just go for it. But it does make a lot more sense to use chariots instead.
     
  16. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Well, it really depends on a couple of things. (And keep in mind that all this gets harder on higher levels when AIs start with Archery) First, what you have available and maybe distance. Chariots are cheap and fast and on Prince very early AI cities are poorly defended. You just don't know if they tech archery early on Prince or not - some do some don't - but AIs do favor the tech. Dogs are terrible against archers due to base strength. A lone surprise Dog on this level could take out an AI by surprise if they just have warriors. Napster is def a more aggressive AI (psycho type) and one of 4 Leaders with the highest unitprob in the game. With that distance and fast access to chariots, that is a real good option on this difficulty. Basically you think of the hammers spent on the chariots to grab another cap city as replacing a settler.

    Anywho, regarding herr Freddy, decision on AH you have to ask what it does for you. No AH resources in BFC...yeah, there is a plains cow to the south but not an abundance of AH stuff here. Now thinking may be ..ooh chariots..but that is not my concern here. On the other hand...cottages.

    By the way there is copper very close, you just have not scouted it ;). I think you maybe scout a bit to far in a direction.. Try to hug a bit closer early in radius around your cap to help with settling decisions.

    My first city would be 1S of gold here. Rice city OK but I'd put it 1SE of rice - cottage help and eventual access to marble. (marble would be awesome to settle on but see no food for it)
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  17. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    Oh wait...this is Bismark..ha....not sure why I thought it was Fred. Biz is nice too. Love Expansive trait and IND is fun. Ha..I was playing a bit and wondering why my grans finished so fast.
    (edit: sampsa led me astray ;) )
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
  18. Hot_Dawg

    Hot_Dawg Chieftain

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    Ya I'm glad it came up honesty. I wasn't sure whether or not to ask about Napoleon and if he should've been eliminated early. This is useful information either way.

    I'm on T40, I had to research AH before pottery for the cows. On T35 I whipped a worker so I could chop my 3rd settler. I saved that turn in case that wasn't a good move. I marked what you suggested for my 3rd city, just to make sure it's the right spot. If not let me know. You mentioned the marble so I wasn't sure if maybe you meant 1SE? I'm have no idea where the 4th or 5th city would be. Which makes me curious, at what point do you stop expanding in the early game? As for tech, again I'm not sure what to do. I was thinking maybe mysticism, chopping a monument in hamburg for the pop so I can work the copper, then going writing->alphabet? Anything in particular I should be doing here?

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  19. lymond

    lymond Rise Up! (Phoenix Style!) Hall of Fame Staff

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    (Nappy is one of the baddies) ...by the way this article from the Strategy Article sub-forum is a very valuable too in learning about each leader. It was gather from code-diving years ago and put together by DanF (old member) into spreadsheets, which were then translated into this easier to read article. You can find it here:

    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-illustrated-1-know-your-enemy.478563/

    So of the info may be a bit over-your-head at this stage, but there are some interesting things that should be quite clear such as which leaders plot at Please, and which build more units. Easy to find in the subforum to this forum, but recommend you bookmark and have ready to reference.

    Sorry I meant 1SE of rice (ugh..I do that often), that 1SW is not bad. But 1SE can work 4 grass river cottages for Berlin, and really 6 if you include plains river. Plus, that spot will nab some marble later.

    Anyway, whipped worker? Was that a 2 pop whip?

    Not bad, but a couple of notes:

    1) why a road on the cows?

    2) You are building a settler and not working the gold tiles but rather an unimproved ivory tile...why? Gold is so valuable early when worked, and that is partly the reason for why I recommend settling 1S of the. Between the two cities they can keep the gold working. (not to mention some shared cottages with Berlin)

    Also, though I may not have been totally clear on the point, that is one reason I suggested POT first. So city2 would work the gold while Berlin is growing. Second big reason for POT is granaries build super fast. And..well..cottages.

    Some warriors out spawn busting would be nice. Barbs should not be too bad for a while. Not sure where your warriors are here.

    You could Myst or just straight to writing. On this level, I tend to go Alpha>Maths>Currency or Maths>Alpha>Currency. (that changes on higher levels)

    As for settling, you have options. Really no limit to settling on this difficulty level as long as the cities are good.
     
  20. Hot_Dawg

    Hot_Dawg Chieftain

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    Well I did do pottery first, but then I realized that worker wouldn't be able to improve that cow tile without AH. Unless I was suppose to build a road between my two cities while researching AH? If you want I can go back to T20 and re-do these turns, researching POT first. As for why a road to cow, I wasn't sure if it's necessary to connect the resources to the city? The whipped worker was only 1 pop. The gold tile not being worked is my bad. I guess I just assumed it was being worked without actually checking if it was or not. If I do go straight working, do I start building a library in city 2 right away? Should I grow the city 1 until size 6, then whip settler as was suggested earlier? I just want to make sure before I do anything else.
     

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