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Going for Gold: Follower Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 17, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 31, 2018.
  1. Yes

    66.7%
  2. No

    33.3%
  1. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I agree. Right now the belief is an early game strength, while mosques are your late game big boost. Seems a reasonable balance to me.
     
  2. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Inspiration is currently 1 culture for every 2 followers (caps at 6), and +2 faith in a city for having a specialist.

    This is a lot stronger than the other beliefs. I'd say its substantially better than the old version that capped at 10 but had no faith.
     
    Owlbebach likes this.
  3. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I actually really like the newest versions of Inspiration and Veneration, even moreso than the similar yield-focused Follower Beliefs. I think that the other pure-yield beliefs should be tweaked to give them more flavor and utility and, most importantly, dilute their pure yields so that they're not just :c5citizen: > :c5science:/:c5gold:/:c5production:/:c5food: conversions.

    Some rough draft ideas:

    Asceticism: +1 :c5food: for every Follower in the city (Max +10). -10% :c5faith: purchase costs in the city.
    Diligence: +1 :c5production: for every two Followers in the city (Max +8). +1 :c5faith: to Forges, Workshops, and Factories in the city.
    Scholarship: +1 :c5science: for every two Followers in the city (Max +8). +1 :c5faith: to Libraries, Universities, and Public Schools in the city.
    Thrift: +1 :c5gold: for every Follower in the city (Max +10). 10% of :c5gold: from worked tiles converted to :c5faith: in the city.

    I tried to think of extra bonuses that a) could re-use existing code and b) revolved around generation or use of :c5faith:, but really I was just trying to make these last four follower beliefs as interesting and engaging as their brethren.

    What does everyone think?
     
  4. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I don’t think there is any reason to reinvent the wheel here. The reason we changed those two beliefs is because we could not balance them with a single yield. It would flip between “garbage never take” and “always must have”.

    The other beliefs haven’t had that problem.

    Now as far as crazyGs notion, not sure I agree. Sure inspiration is one of the best early game boosts but has a strong tail off. Is it so good thst I never take anything else...no I’m not feeling that
     
  5. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Lol. I think i missed it cause i'm currently playing some other games, but this was a very awkward. I wonder how that decision was made, cause i really thought that it was obvios that Inspiration is OP because of how good is it in the beginning of the game. Scaling was not the problem at all, it is so powerful because it give a lot of early culture.

    I would take Inspiration over Diligence even if Inspiration is capped at 4 and Diligence at 10
     
  6. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Allow me to try and sway you.

    When does inspiration tail off? Diligence reaches 8 yields when you have 16 followers, so probably around 20 population.
    When is your average city at 20 population? With heavy growth, around turn 200? Let's say you get your religion on turn 90.
    • So diligence is pretty clearly worse for the first 110 turns that you have it. Its fewer yields, and worse yields.
    • Then its at best even for around 10 turns, both would have 8 total yields.
    • Then it reaches 18 followers, having a total of 9 yields, versus inspiration's total of 8 yields. Is 9 hammers better than 6 culture, 2 faith? Its debatable, if these were tiles I'd work the culture most of the time, maybe turning it off if pursuing a wonder.
    • You need a ton of growth to get to enough population to have 30 followers. At the point of like 26 population cities, Diligence is better (though I'd say that the best beliefs for that stage of the game are synagogues or mosques).
    Are we in agreement that generally 1:c5culture:>1:c5production:?
    Are we in agreement that yields now are better than yields later?
    If so, I just don't see how diligence is every a better pick, unless you somehow get land that is very low on hammers but high on culture? Maybe a custom civ can make that happen but none of the 43 normal ones can. I don't think its a good example of a short or long term decision, because its long term is never actually that much better than inspirations.

    I consider diligence a good belief and I'm happy to take it, but inspiration is better. Inspiration isn't broken per say, you aren't guaranteed to win if you have it, you don't have to pick it in order to win, but its still better than the other options barring rather niche situations.
     
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  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I’ll agree with most of the statement above especially the comparison to diligence. As you said I don’t consider inspiration so strong it’s the only choice...I would still argue some of the building options are quite good, but it’s likely still the king of the per pop beliefs.
     
    CrazyG likes this.
  8. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    It is a king of all beliefs. I would take it in every possible situation as my first follower.

    I really think that it was fine when it was 1 culture per 3 pop. However apparently people think that it is to low, so i suggest a simple and easy solution: make it 1 culture in every city + 1 per 3 pop capped at 100 (so that everyone will see how powerful will it eventually become)
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    You would take that over synagogues as China? Really?
     
  10. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    I'd probably get inspiration and then hope to get synagogues as my enhancer. If you are looking very, very long term then maybe synagogues are right, but when in doubt taking a social policy lead wins games.

    Culture this early is too good. Secondary cities have a monument, probably about 2 culture per city from social policies, and maybe 1 culture from a tile. So 5 culture total? Upgrade that to 7-8, the difference is massive. Culture is also really rare. The coming culture sources are Arenas for 1, then amphitheaters for 2.

    Faith is rare too. You probably have 2 for shrines and 2-3 from pantheon. You get about a 33% upgrade on faith output for those specialists. These numbers are huge, the other follower yields can't compete. Buildings are good beliefs but they are so slow in comparison.
     
  11. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    Of course i would. It might not be obvious, but if you try to play together with someone - you'll notice that a lot. For a very long time i thoung that Inspiration is mediocre belief, until one day i was playing with my friend and he took it. After 70 turns he was massively ahead of me. I thought he was just better and/or luckier, but after dozen of games we clearly had the pattern.
     
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  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Your argument may still be right, but we have to be careful with framing. Your implying 5 culture vs 7-8 and saying it’s a massive difference. But it’s only real a difference in border growth.

    The real question is how much culture it adds total, per city doesn’t matter much. I mention this because a lot of culture comes from the capital and from instant yields...we don’t want to overlook those when we consider the impact.
     
  13. Owlbebach

    Owlbebach Emperor

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    It IS a massive difference!

    Think of it that way - it gives you your next 3 Policies ~50% earlier. By the time player with Inspiration will get 6th policy - player without Inspiration will be 2 policies behind.
     
  14. crdvis16

    crdvis16 King

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    Stalker is saying you have to take into consideration things like culture from tech research (if progress) or culture from tribute (if authority) before you can say what % increase those extra few points of culture have. What matters in determining how much more culture it is percentage wise is the total culture output from both city and instant sources.

    I don't think your example that a player without inspiration would be 2 policies behind is accurate because of this.
     
  15. Mad Madigan

    Mad Madigan Prince

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    I can't argue that the current version of inspiration isn't good; nay, it's great. I'm arguing that the other pure-yield should be brought up to its level in a way that doesn't just focus on a single yield. That's why I suggested tying each of the other yield beliefs to Faith generation in some way (as Inspiration and Veneration were in their current implementation). I also think part of that balance is reigning in the scaling of each belief with both number of owned cities and population (like the Enhancer, Founder, and Reformation beliefs recently were). Otherwise religion just becomes too powerful again, or at least situationally powerful enough that it narrows down player choice.
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    You are correct. However, even considering this I would still say inspiration is very good. I also didn't mention that +2 faith boosts religious pressure.

    I kind of think inspiration needs to go to 1 culture per 3. Diligence is already a strong belief, I think it affects the game about as much as a religious belief should.
     
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  17. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    Bumping an old thread, I think the newest patch has affected follower beliefs.

    Aestheticism- should cap at 10, not 15. Currently its way better than thrift or diligence.

    Mosques- Golden ages aren't that expensive, culture is the best yield, 20% is bigger than 15% on synagogues or 10% on mandirs. Every time I take these I just totally dominate the late game, ending up like 5 or 6 policies ahead of the AI. I've starting it taking it every game I don't have the University of Sankore. Maybe change to 15%?

    Synagogues- I've been taking these instead of diligence, the 3 hammers is usually all I want, and late game they are far stronger than diligence is. Maybe change to 2 hammers?
     
  18. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    I’ve never really understood your love for mosques over synagogues, they to me are the dominant building right now.

    WLTKD are able to be gotten and maintained a lot easier than Golden ages, so I feel I got more bang for my buck. And then the hammers seal the deal for me, it’s a big boost when you first pick them up.

    I could agree that late game mosques start outperforming, but we all know yields early trump yields late, and synagogues start working much sooner to me
     
  19. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    They are both amazing beliefs (I did suggest a nerf to synagogues too), I just think culture is slightly stronger than science, also mosques get 20% compared to 15%. Especially if you are talking about early/mid-game, culture is much better at that stage of the game. Taking rationalism and all policies in it 5 turns earlier is worth a lot science too (civs with UIs can rush autocracy's 3 science per city, along with other crazy tenets like lebrensaum).

    Mosques indirectly generate tourism, way more than a stupa will (stupas are completely useless). Synagogues do support a science victory, but I have to intentionally try to win by science. And by that I mean I have to intentionally not choose mosques or I'll win by tourism first :crazyeye:
     
  20. azum4roll

    azum4roll Prince

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    What happened to the suggestion to rebalance instant tourism yields to favour tourism more and culture less?
     
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