I think we should just wait for the next version and try it out then. It's worthless in it's current state, but from what Gazebo said here, the scaler will be 100 25 GG/GA for every 2 pop, whereas previously it was 60 for every 3 pop (changelog didn't contain it though, so maybe he decided against it). It's effectively 50 12.5 per pop compared to previous 2020, though with the caveat that uneven numbers still give you the inferior value if it works like it did before. It didn't matter if a city had 3-4-5, or 6-7-8 pop as they gave the same yields, so now it'll be 3-4, 5-6, 7-8 with equal gains etc.
I think it will have a niche, but that remains to be seen.
My recommendation was for //SomethingElse on GG or GA birth. GG/GA points on birth is silly. Since those Births are fairly rare, even for warmonger games (I only ever get 8-9 in total from combat in a given game), and it’s fairly hard to time, I would suggest the yields could be fairly high on a per-follower basis. You can also get the trigger off of wonders,events, etc. Maybe , since there is only 1 other founder which gives that? Would be nice since the alter gives on holy sites, but instant boosts are dangerous.
I did suggest that GG/GA points could be added as a yield directly onto the great altar though.
Agree, the problem with that kind of condition, is that you must be in good conditions to war, because war can be very costly and even with the bonus of the founder, it is some time not worth it.
Unlike any other founder where the bonus is always acquired, the amount of yield may be strong or weak but it's never lost.
Hero Worship is performing very well - you should only take it if you want to run the risk of impotence by failing to use it. That's the nature of a conquest-oriented belief, like God of War.
Playing Hero Worship Aztecs and it really is a wholly different belief now, I can't say it's bad anymore. One needs to prepare himself for a slaughter, but if the bodies hit the floor and cities burn, the benefits are clear. Easy tons of yields.
What are your thoughts on the new and shiny Apostolic Tradition? I feel like it has been overbuffed, and the new culture does overlap with Way of the Pilgrim. Granted, my only experience with the belief so far was a Byz game where I combined the two aforementioned founders. That was fun and cheesy
What are your thoughts on the new and shiny Apostolic Tradition? I feel like it has been overbuffed, and the new culture does overlap with Way of the Pilgrim. Granted, my only experience with the belief so far was a Byz game where I combined the two aforementioned founders. That was fun and cheesy
It feels quite strong just when you get it, since the food is often extremely relevant then too. It's great to max out a tradition capital very quickly, where you'll have both lots of tiles and lots of slots to work. The culture is strong too and has more stamina, but the belief as a whole is very focused on the period before religions get established; I think it's good if you manage an early found and/or are sort of far away from the other religions that have been founded early. Once every city around has a religion it gets a lot weaker, but you've already gotten a ton of early culture and a huge capital from it by then.
i tried Apostolic Tradition and it was.. ok early then then totally deny passing renaissance, i was quite disappointed, maybe i used it wrong or i had bad conditions but you need too much missionaries to make it work in my opinion
How would you guys feel about Apostolic Tradition giving / or / instead of /? That would make it more unique in comparison to other spreading founders (giving Faith) and reduce conflict with WoTP.
How would you guys feel about Apostolic Tradition giving / or / instead of /? That would make it more unique in comparison to other spreading founders (giving Faith) and reduce conflict with WoTP.
Interesting, but dangerous.
If you pick that with univerlismn enhancer belief and fealty, you may get too much faith back, so creating a very strong faith loop, making you totally op. Either you set the value very low to deny such a loop, but making it then irrelevant, or you set it to a normal value, but risk a dangerous combo for Byzanz, which would be then able to convert everything.
Hero Worship is the only Founder that gives and it's tied to warmongering.
I kind of miss the old Apostolic Tradition that gave +1/ per follower per spread you made, and I don't like how it now steps on Way of the Pilgrim toes. Is it possible to restore this, and to just cap it at 200 / per spread?
Is there a reason you want to nerf it in two dimensions at once? It's already not very strong as the game goes on, but as it is now you can get a good boost out of it with a GP even after religions are deeply dug in. Switching from to is probably already cutting the value of the belief in half if you don't do anything else.
Right now when I play Spain it's usually Council of Elders or Apolistic for me, I think I would never choose anything but CoE if this change happened.
I believe (pun intended) that Way of the Pilgrim is considerably too strong and straight up ridiculuos with Borobodur. In my last Deity game as Rome, I adopted an ideology a few turns after Tradition-Artistry Egypt, with the rest of the pack at least 2 policies behind. I had 6 non-puppet cities and 3 puppets. Thanks to WoP, I managed to get the 7th policy needed for Borobodur fast enough that I was able to use a GE to snag it. In classical/medieval era, you spend around 200 faith per missionary and you get 2 spreads (3 with Borobodur). If you send it to a foreign AI tradition capital (usually has the most population and thus the most followers of other beliefs), you can get at least around 200 culture per spread, which means you spend 200 faith for 400 culture. That's probably (one of) the best return on investment for faith in the game. And that's just the culture/policies, you get even more tourism. In a way it rewards you for the AI doing well, because bigger AI cities = more culture. Later on you can even get 300 or 350 culture per spread.
I'm not convinced it's that much the best choice. Council of Elders and Apolistic Tradition are both much faster-acting when you're first to found and provide huge immediate benefits, I think an AI taking one of those first might be able to snowball pretty hard. Sure CoE is a little hard to time properly but even if you're wasting a lot of hammers that's still just huge value, especially if other AIs start spreading it for you.
I definitely think that something is up with AI belief choices. In my last game, there was a Tradition Maya who went God of War, Hero worship, Orders, pretty much the entire warmonger package but did not declare war one single time. I was constantly trying to gauge his tech level and scout his borders in anticipation of a scary horde of Atlatists but nothing ever happened. Even when the Ottomans, who he must have hated due to multiple citadel land thefts right up into his capital, were crumbling right in front of them for easy pickings he just sat back.
I'm not in favor of @CrazyG and @Stalker0 's impulse to start a new thread for founder beliefs every version, so I am bringing us back to the gold thread
Generally, I agree with his assessment on yield breakdowns and ranking, except for I think he downplays Council of Elders' burst utility for securing wonders, which is why the yields for that specific belief have been made lower in comparison to others.
I would also add to his analysis that I think the newest beliefs violate the norms for Founders and Followers, which have until now had only 1 active effect.
SpoilerSo here are the current Founder beliefs, and my suggestions for beliefs in red below them: :
Apostolic Tradition
25Food in Holy City when you spread your religion, scaling with then number of new followers.
When you unlock a Technology, receive 10 faith, scaling with number of Followers (max 250)
Ceremonial Burial
When a Great Person is Expended, gain 15 for every City following your religion (max 25)
Council of Elders
You'll get 30 for your capital and per each new city you spread to. Bonus caps at 15 Cities.
Divine Inheritance
+20% to all yields in holy city during golden ages.
Hero Worship
Receive and when you conquer a City, as well as Great General Points (if City is landlocked) or Great Admiral Points (if City is coastal). Bonus scales with City population and Era.
Holy Law
When you unlock a Policy, gain 5 ,, for every Follower of your Religion (max 250 Followers).
Theocratic Rule
+15% during WLTKD in all cities.
Way of Noble Truths
+25 Influence with City-States when Missionaries spread your Religion to them (scaling with Era).
+1 Happiness for every 10 Followers in peaceful foreign Civilizations.
Way of Transcendence
When you enter a new Era, Holy City gains 15 of every Yield for each City following your Religion (max 25 Cities), scaling with Era.
SpoilerHere are my suggested changes :
Apostolic Tradition renamed to Revelation:
When you unlock a Technology, receive 2faith, 2Culture, and 1Golden Age Points, scaling with number of Followers (max 250)
Way of Noble Truths renamed to Pilgrimage
When you spread your Religion to cities other than your Holy City, Receive 10 Food in Holy City based on the number of followers converted and 10 Tourism, scaling with the number of Followers of other Religions.
So first, I have some criticism for the new beliefs
Having 2 different triggers on Apostolic is doomed to fail. The missionary spread founders have, until now, been faith sinks. The addition of a large faith source that you can pour into missionaries for the same belief's other active bonus is not a good idea in the broad strokes, ignoring the absolutely absurd amount of yields it currently gives.
The Happiness per city following your religion is the same as Faith of the Masses, and feels more like an Enhancer bonus.
Missionaries can now give 100influence in Medieval (150 with Borobodur), and only get more absurd from there. By the time you have ambassadors, your missionaries will be giving 150 per spread (300-450 total). If I recall influence on spread had been tried before, and was discarded because it either had to be set so low as to be a non-factor or it was broken. I fully expect this just to go right back into the toy box.
The numbers for my Pilgrimage proposal are low at 15 on conversion and 10 for other followers, but they use the same trigger and combining them means the spread belief no longer has a shelf life, like the old apostolic, or has a massive lag, waiting for other civs to get enough religious defense, like the old Way of the Pilgrim
Now for math:
With Way of Transcendence reduced to 15 scaling with 25 cities and by era, if you found in classical, that leaves 6 eras, with a max potential of 6x15x6x25x(1+2+3+4+5+6) == 283,500. mind, that is heavilly back-loaded onto the last few eras because of the scaling
Holy Law is 5, scaling with followers to 250. So if you had completed your ancient tree before founding that were to finish 2 level 3 ideology tenets by the end of the game, that is 21 more triggers, for 5x3x250x21 == 82,500 yields
So if Holy Law is B-tier, we probably want to get close to that. If you filled the ancient tree before founding you would have 69 techs remaining (nice), but that's pretty generous since very few civs actually complete the tech tree by the end of the game. IMO the 21 policies for Holy Law is more achievable. anyways, If Revelation gave 5 yields, 221, that's 5x250x69 == 86,250 yields, so a little higher.
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25
GG/GA for every 2 pop, whereas previously it was 60
for every 3 pop (changelog didn't contain it though, so maybe he decided against it). It's effectively 50
, since there is only 1 other founder which gives that? 
Would be nice since the alter gives 
or 
instead of 
? That would make it more unique in comparison to other spreading founders (giving Faith) and reduce conflict with WoTP.
Influence with City-States when Missionaries spread your Religion to them (scaling with Era).
Happiness for every 10 Followers in peaceful foreign Civilizations.
Tourism, scaling with the number of Followers of other Religions.
