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Going for Gold: Founder Beliefs

Discussion in 'General Balance' started by Stalker0, May 16, 2018.

?

Is this item in a reasonable state of balance?

Poll closed May 30, 2018.
  1. Yes

    50.0%
  2. No

    50.0%
  1. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Hero Worship provides 100 :c5faith:/:c5goldenage: according to the changelog, not just 100 :c5faith:. I think we should leave it be.
     
  2. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    What if HW gave all units the Great Generals 1 promotion?
     
  3. Rekk

    Rekk Emperor

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    Still not liking Hero Worship's yields on city conquer. The number of yields still isn't the problem.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  4. Cat-du-fromage

    Cat-du-fromage Warlord

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    Agree, the problem with that kind of condition, is that you must be in good conditions to war, because war can be very costly and even with the bonus of the founder, it is some time not worth it.

    Unlike any other founder where the bonus is always acquired, the amount of yield may be strong or weak but it's never lost.
     
  5. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Hero Worship is performing very well - you should only take it if you want to run the risk of impotence by failing to use it. That's the nature of a conquest-oriented belief, like God of War.

    G
     
  6. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

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    Playing Hero Worship Aztecs and it really is a wholly different belief now, I can't say it's bad anymore. One needs to prepare himself for a slaughter, but if the bodies hit the floor and cities burn, the benefits are clear. Easy tons of yields.
     
  7. black213

    black213 Emperor

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    What are your thoughts on the new and shiny Apostolic Tradition? I feel like it has been overbuffed, and the new culture does overlap with Way of the Pilgrim. Granted, my only experience with the belief so far was a Byz game where I combined the two aforementioned founders. That was fun and cheesy :)
     
  8. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Warlord

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    It feels quite strong just when you get it, since the food is often extremely relevant then too. It's great to max out a tradition capital very quickly, where you'll have both lots of tiles and lots of slots to work. The culture is strong too and has more stamina, but the belief as a whole is very focused on the period before religions get established; I think it's good if you manage an early found and/or are sort of far away from the other religions that have been founded early. Once every city around has a religion it gets a lot weaker, but you've already gotten a ton of early culture and a huge capital from it by then.
     
  9. Cat-du-fromage

    Cat-du-fromage Warlord

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    i tried Apostolic Tradition and it was.. ok early then then totally deny passing renaissance, i was quite disappointed, maybe i used it wrong or i had bad conditions but you need too much missionaries to make it work in my opinion
     
  10. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    How would you guys feel about Apostolic Tradition giving :c5faith:/:c5food: or :c5faith:/:c5gold: instead of :c5food:/:c5culture:? That would make it more unique in comparison to other spreading founders (giving Faith) and reduce conflict with WoTP.
     
  11. BiteInTheMark

    BiteInTheMark Emperor

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    Interesting, but dangerous.
    If you pick that with univerlismn enhancer belief and fealty, you may get too much faith back, so creating a very strong faith loop, making you totally op. Either you set the value very low to deny such a loop, but making it then irrelevant, or you set it to a normal value, but risk a dangerous combo for Byzanz, which would be then able to convert everything.
     
    grmagne likes this.
  12. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    Hero Worship is the only Founder that gives :c5goldenage: and it's tied to warmongering.

    I kind of miss the old Apostolic Tradition that gave +1:c5food:/:c5goldenage: per follower per spread you made, and I don't like how it now steps on Way of the Pilgrim toes. Is it possible to restore this, and to just cap it at 200 :c5food:/:c5goldenage: per spread?
     
  13. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Warlord

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    Is there a reason you want to nerf it in two dimensions at once? It's already not very strong as the game goes on, but as it is now you can get a good boost out of it with a GP even after religions are deeply dug in. Switching from :c5culture: to :c5goldenage: is probably already cutting the value of the belief in half if you don't do anything else.

    Right now when I play Spain it's usually Council of Elders or Apolistic for me, I think I would never choose anything but CoE if this change happened.
     
  14. LifeOfBrian

    LifeOfBrian Warlord

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    I believe (pun intended) that Way of the Pilgrim is considerably too strong and straight up ridiculuos with Borobodur. In my last Deity game as Rome, I adopted an ideology a few turns after Tradition-Artistry Egypt, with the rest of the pack at least 2 policies behind. I had 6 non-puppet cities and 3 puppets. Thanks to WoP, I managed to get the 7th policy needed for Borobodur fast enough that I was able to use a GE to snag it. In classical/medieval era, you spend around 200 faith per missionary and you get 2 spreads (3 with Borobodur). If you send it to a foreign AI tradition capital (usually has the most population and thus the most followers of other beliefs), you can get at least around 200 culture per spread, which means you spend 200 faith for 400 culture. That's probably (one of) the best return on investment for faith in the game. And that's just the culture/policies, you get even more tourism. In a way it rewards you for the AI doing well, because bigger AI cities = more culture. Later on you can even get 300 or 350 culture per spread.
     
    black213 likes this.
  15. Kim Dong Un

    Kim Dong Un The One & Unly Supporter

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    AI that founds first is taking Way of Pilgrim 9/10 times in every game I've played throughout the past several versions.
     
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  16. Rhys DeAnno

    Rhys DeAnno Warlord

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    I'm not convinced it's that much the best choice. Council of Elders and Apolistic Tradition are both much faster-acting when you're first to found and provide huge immediate benefits, I think an AI taking one of those first might be able to snowball pretty hard. Sure CoE is a little hard to time properly but even if you're wasting a lot of hammers that's still just huge value, especially if other AIs start spreading it for you.
     
  17. amateurgamer88

    amateurgamer88 Emperor

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    It's especially funny when the India AI takes Way of Pilgrim. Maybe that's why they don't do well?
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  18. Bromar1

    Bromar1 King

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    I definitely think that something is up with AI belief choices. In my last game, there was a Tradition Maya who went God of War, Hero worship, Orders, pretty much the entire warmonger package but did not declare war one single time. I was constantly trying to gauge his tech level and scout his borders in anticipation of a scary horde of Atlatists but nothing ever happened. Even when the Ottomans, who he must have hated due to multiple citadel land thefts right up into his capital, were crumbling right in front of them for easy pickings he just sat back.
     
    Coffee Monopoly and LifeOfBrian like this.

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