I use chariots fairly often actually. I do find myself in situations where I have the wheel and horses, but not military theory, so I build them. They also upgrade to skirmishers for a pretty cheap price. I'd be up for trying them without a horse requirement, but it does compete really heavily with archers then. Will the AI handle promoting them into a unit that requires horses alright?
Going for Gold: Units
- Thread starter Stalker0
- Start date
That makes sense, i'd rather move them to Animal Husbandry and leave Horses requirement. Also removing Horses requirement is a nerf to Egypt (however i haven't used his Chariots much anyway)
Egypt's chariots are a very good unit (better than hoplites or immortals) if the terrain is flat enough. They are useless in areas with a blocked path of forests and hills. If you get a really flat Pangea each Chariot can potentially kill enough units to pay for its own production and can spiral out of control. I don't think you necessarily would have to give Egypt's chariots a major buff if this happened, other than maybe 1 CS or RCS.
ElliotS
Warmonger
Yeah I would. The reason is that I don't need to go two early game techs that don't connect resources. I can swing animal husbandry (especially if in an area that probably has some hidden resources) and get my stuff connected regardless.
chicorbeef
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,548
So the value of Chariots would be in the saved Science by not researching Wheel? I suppose you'd only benefit when you have non-Calendar resources because those require the Wheel, but otherwise I suppose it has value in rushing Mining, Bronze Working, Trade, Fishing, Sailing, Construction, Iron Working, etc. Is that essentially what you're trying to say?
pineappledan
Deity
Also, if you research wheel first, that’s time lost. You have to have decided ahead of time that you are rushing chariots, and go husbandry first, or else @chicorbeef’s argument falls flat
ElliotS
Warmonger
It's a bit worse than that even. If you've got a bunch of calendar resources you need 3 techs to connect them. Can you really afford an extra tech getting in the way? Maybe you still don't build them with calendars now, but at least for mining, trapping or fishing it's a strong option now.
The thing is also timing. If you're 5 techs in when you unlock them by the time you can use them your enemy can have swords. It's just not feasible in many games.
In this case i'd settle one of my cities on a resource. Also there is now a very powerful option to take Husbandry and then settle 2nd city on Horses.
tu_79
Deity
Thematically, it makes sense that chariots require both animal husbandry and the wheel, and also some connected horses to produce a few. But in practice it makes this unit to appear to late. Moving it to animal husbandry and requiring horses is better than being at the wheel from a gameplay point of view, if less thematic.
Other alternatives.
1. Leave chariots in wheel, remove horse requirement.
2. Leave chariots in wheel, but require animal husbandry, not horses.
3. Moving chariots to Animal Husbadry. Move something else to Wheel (those early roads are not super useful).
4. Improving chariots. Losing all action points in rough terrain is a big drawback for hit and run tactics.
Commentaries.
Wheel is a tech that currently I only use for getting to other techs. So leaving chariots in Wheel, but improved in some way will increase the appeal of this tech.
Current movement mechanic makes chariots useless in rough/river terrains. It would be ok to only be able to use this unit in a very specific terrain if it could be produced and abused fast (meaning not requiring horses), not as it is now.
Removing horse requirement can be useful in ancient, but it can also be problematic in classical when upgrading to skirmishers. The horse requirement makes chariots compete with horsemen, and since horsemen are all terrain and more resilient, guess who is not going to be produced.
They are also a range 1 unit that has hover. Not disagreeing per say but it’s not fair to say they are just like any old range 1 unit.
LukaSlovenia29
Emperor
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2016
- Messages
- 1,500
They need something more to make them useful apart from being medics. Because currently I personally never build them in my games, because they're very vulnerable to a counter-attack. Not only would I want them to be able to move after attacking, I'd want them to have at least 5 movement, so they could be used for a more safe hit-and-run. With 3 moves and unable to use roads/railroads, they're too slow and too vulnerable. I know we've talked about them before, but iirc nothing has happened since, and they remain a very neglected unit.
Does anyone actually use the Dromon?
-Gets almost 1 shot by triremes
-1 less movement than triremes
-Stuck to coast tiles, which makes it EXTREMELY difficult to maneuver with only 3 movement.
All of these combine to what I consider a near-useless unit. Early naval combat seems to be focused on resource denial and blockade, and Dromons having the defence of a wet paper bag means I almost always skip this unit over.
-Gets almost 1 shot by triremes
-1 less movement than triremes
-Stuck to coast tiles, which makes it EXTREMELY difficult to maneuver with only 3 movement.
All of these combine to what I consider a near-useless unit. Early naval combat seems to be focused on resource denial and blockade, and Dromons having the defence of a wet paper bag means I almost always skip this unit over.
ElliotS
Warmonger
They take cities easily with trireme support. Good enough for me.
tu_79
Deity
I do. Especially when researching sailing fast. I build two trirremes for exploring, then one or two dromon for coastal dominance. But I need to feel safe on land before committing to a fleet.
I agree that early naval is pretty useless, but as far as i understood Gazebo just wanted them to be useless.
They do, if this city is surrounded by sea, but otherwise - not much use. You still need to have land army first and given high cost of naval it is better to build more land army. Usefull only if you have limited access to enemy city from land
chicorbeef
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2017
- Messages
- 1,548
I use Dromons because Dromons can move after attacking so I hit/run to concentrate fire on enemy ships. It works much better than spamming Triremes because Triremes can't move after attack and you can't move in another ship to attack because the tile is blocked. Plus Dromons can help you hold a coastal city by killling land units.
You do need at least like 3 boarding party Triremes to clear the way first and foremost however, otherwise they'll get destroyed.
You do need at least like 3 boarding party Triremes to clear the way first and foremost however, otherwise they'll get destroyed.
Dromons are awesome. I think they're about as balanced as they can get - we've tried other stats for them in the past and they become OP far too easily. The hit and run is perfect for additional damage and early sea superiority.
Der_Zorn_gottes
King
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2003
- Messages
- 771
Yeah, Dromons afr fine - no city killers, but good naval support.
What I didlike about the current state of navy is that submarines are not special any more. Before the change to the ranged ship line, their speciality was the fire and retreat ability, which made them unique ate water. Now they are the same as ranged ships, except that they cant attack land units and are very fragile vs melee ships. I don't see their point any more.
What I didlike about the current state of navy is that submarines are not special any more. Before the change to the ranged ship line, their speciality was the fire and retreat ability, which made them unique ate water. Now they are the same as ranged ships, except that they cant attack land units and are very fragile vs melee ships. I don't see their point any more.
Similar threads
- Locked
