Going Viking (Conquests)

[Rambuchan]

I've obviously misunderstood Stealth Attack. What I meant was the ability to attack in peacetimes. I think that's what Hidden Nationality should give but I can't attack with Raiders in peacetime. The AI does target them so you've achieve your goal there I do use them in numbers to retreat attack (blitz?) to soften a target and also amphib raids but not the 'raiding and pillaging' during peace times you mention.

Just to clarify, I think radar towers should be there, just with different art and name.

Allies: As a resource this is a great idea. So is your reworking idea on them.

 

[KingArthur]

You should be able to use them in peacetime against units but not against cities. The AI won't attack them if you have a hird man or other non HN unit on the same tile (handy tip and the AI will use this trick too).

Yes allies will require resources - a fixed resource under each civs capital.

Radar towers give a combat bonus to the units withing their zone of influence - maybe I could get a castle graphic and use that instead.

 

[Rambuchan]

I've cranked up a new game with two rule mods (zerks as cruz miss. bomb for 12? and oaths enables dipl) as the old one crashed a 3rd time, exactly like the others.

I see how raiders can pillage in peace now. Nice.

Will let you know how this one goes and if any other stuff crops up, esp. crashes!

 

[Rambuchan]

Sorry forgot to metion. I got no error report on crashing. It just promptly exited the game - black screen then to last active window on desktop. Pretty neat and fast exit as it goes. Always at same point as mentioned.

I'm playing next one as Gunthorm, as I believe the island capital may be an advantage. I tricked the Scot king onto an island as Flatnose and bombarded him with ships and finished him off with raiders in boats. So I'm goign for more pressure. Also on Monarch level now to make up for my prior game knowledge. I'll let you know how that VP or Dom/Conq victory thing goes but I'll bet it heads to VPV.

 

[Balam]

Rambuchan, I think I have a tip on Raider use...if you capture booty but are in an indefensible position, don't pick it up! The AI won't attack because your booty counts as a unit. I know its cheezy, but I used this tactic a few times when things got desperate, heheh...besides, if you're lucky enough to get a leader, you can create Raider armies that are hidden nationality AND amphibious. Very powerful. Although the AI will attack those armies mercilessly for some reason...

 

[Rambuchan]

OK played a good stint on the new game (monarch level, Gunthorm, plus some rule changes), here's some feedback:

Rule Changes I made:

Diplomacy: Set Blood Oaths to enable diplomats, MPPs, RoPs, embargoes, the works. This hugely changed the game and made it far more interesting and challenging. There was also a burning urge to get Blood Oaths researched / acquired. In fact this tech which I ignored before is now brilliant. I got jumped by a powerful Wessex very early and I was madly forced to trade for Blood Oaths so I could sign East Anglia, Mercia and Cymru into MPPs. It worked a treat. Later in the game the web of MPPs and RoPs gets insane and it's a great juggling act. This also opens up the 'lazy mercenary' approach where you just cash in on joining alliances and then do nothing. The AIs sensitivity to broken alliances seems quite weak. EA made peace before twenty turns was up but was forced to war with Wessex again cos of our MPP. Then I left the deal early and EA remained polite. The AI is also very much into using embargoes it seems. Diplomacy in all it's glory very much suits this scenario and raises the gameplay immeasurably.

Beserkers: Well I think I fuc*ed it up. Set them to cruise missiles and also gave them bombard value of 12. When I rolled them out they had a different animation and did absolutely nothing to their target. They did expire on use still. So they made just as little impact as when they were nukes. What did I do wrong?

Dragon Boats: Gave them bombardment range of 2. Seemed stupid to have longboats and then advance in seafaring abilities only to lose the 2sq bombardment range on your boats. For a Viking scenario I wanted to beef up the ships a bit more. Was there a historical or gameplay reason why dragon boats were given less artillery range than longboats?

Other stuff from previous discussions:

Raiders: Thanks for the tip Balam. I realised that the reason why I had misunderstood HN abilities is that in the first game I tried to make an amphibious peacetime attack on a Scot city. Of course it didn't let me do it to a city. But I presumed that the raiders couldn't attack anything in peacetime so I didn't bother! This time round I was pillaging and capturing workers with a vengeance. I'd taken the VP lead within 20 turns just from worker captures. Raiders rock and all I said about them before was kak based on my misunderstanding of them

Allies: Likewise with Allies. Because of me misunderstanding HN and Stealth Attack I misused and misunderstood the ally units' role. Now I see nothing wrong with them. They are 'safe' versions of raiders and fast units too. I have good reason to build them now I'm clear. So once again ignore my earlier comments about these units. They're fine.

Stealth Attack of Champs: Having said that I still don't find that Champs use stealth attack. Isn't a drop down list meant to appear so you can choose what to attack? I wasn't getting this. I've probably misunderstood something again but I never have the chance to use stealth attacks in my normal epic games due to them ending before the tech becoming effective.

Armies: This time I made sure I built Thor's Hammer. This is a HUGE advantage. You can bash cities out much quicker and if I could be bothered I can see that this is the only real way to achieve a dom/conq victory before anyone gets to the VP limit. I've got the max possible number of armies out - 3 full of Ulfserkers (named each after cities so 'The *Hertfjord* Slayers' etc), 1 full of Champs (Called it 'Champions League'), 1 full of Raiders ('The Rampagers') and 3 full of Shield Maidens again named after cities - The *Norwik* Women's Associaton etc ). Like I say, I can't see how you'd achieve a dom/conq without Thor's Hammer but it now seems possible. Moreso if the beserkers actually worked.

I'm only at 867AD so haven't reached the same date as the previous crash (Dec. 870AD) but this one is running smoothly so far. I can see that there are a load of units for the amount of tiles and cities. Already my unit support costs have gone through the roof since I've built most improvements. Maybe this is why it crashed last time round?

Anyway, hope that all helps. Still having a blast!!!

 

[Rambuchan]

Oh and I haven't seen a Seamonster yet

 

[KingArthur]

Oh and I haven't seen a Seamonster yet

Some people say they are just a myth, others however, swear that they've seen them

 

[KingArthur]

Beserkers: [/B]Well I think I fuc*ed it up. Set them to cruise missiles and also gave them bombard value of 12. When I rolled them out they had a different animation and did absolutely nothing to their target. They did expire on use still. So they made just as little impact as when they were nukes. What did I do wrong?

Don't know, might have to fiddle with the unit's ini file to get the animations just right. pollution (dead bodies) will no longer appear because they are no longer flagged as nukes. What you want to do is copy the pollution.pcx file and rename it craters.pcx. That way you may get craters. You also need to flag the berserker as "causes craters" in the editor. Now saying all that, I don't know if it will work quite as well as nukes because the craters only get produced (I think) when you are directly bombing a terrain improvement and won't appear if you bomb a city or unit in the open. I don't think anyone would won't to use a berserk on a terrain improvement!

Dragon Boats: Gave them bombardment range of 2. Seemed stupid to have longboats and then advance in seafaring abilities only to lose the 2sq bombardment range on your boats. For a Viking scenario I wanted to beef up the ships a bit more. Was there a historical or gameplay reason why dragon boats were given less artillery range than longboats?

The reason why longboats have a range of 2 is because they are smaller ships and are able to travel further inland up river mouths. That was my reasoning anyhow but you do what you feel is best.

Stealth Attack of Champs: Having said that I still don't find that Champs use stealth attack. Isn't a drop down list meant to appear so you can choose what to attack? I wasn't getting this. I've probably misunderstood something again but I never have the chance to use stealth attacks in my normal epic games due to them ending before the tech becoming effective.

In the editor you must specify which unit types a stealth unit can select from. In the case of Champs this is limited to other Champs and Leader units. There probably weren't any of these in the stack you were attacking.

Armies: This time I made sure I built Thor's Hammer. This is a HUGE advantage. You can bash cities out much quicker and if I could be bothered I can see that this is the only real way to achieve a dom/conq victory before anyone gets to the VP limit. I've got the max possible number of armies out - 3 full of Ulfserkers (named each after cities so 'The *Hertfjord* Slayers' etc), 1 full of Champs (Called it 'Champions League'), 1 full of Raiders ('The Rampagers') and 3 full of Shield Maidens again named after cities - The *Norwik* Women's Associaton etc ). Like I say, I can't see how you'd achieve a dom/conq without Thor's Hammer but it now seems possible. Moreso if the beserkers actually worked.

Maybe Thor's Hammer is a bit of an unbalancer. I'll take a look at it in the new version. Maybe just restrict it to autoproducing armies every 30 turns or just raise the build cost of armies. (*Norwik* Women's Associaton )

Anyway, hope that all helps. Still having a blast!!!

It does, immensely

 

[Rambuchan]

Beserkers: I don't give a hoot about the pollution effect or animation really. That's fine and cool as is. So are the melt downs. The problem I've got is that the Zerks are completely impotent units now - they kind of were as nukes too. After fiddling with the editor as I detailed they do no damage AT ALL now. They just do their animation and vanish having left no craters, pollution and what I'm interested in - no injured units. Somehow in setting them to cruise missle and giving them bomb. value of 12 I've rendered them useless. I still believe cruise missile status is the way to go but I just can't work the editor to make the change correctly. I'd like to be able to report back whether this status is suitbale for them or not but because of my editor blunder I can't.

Thor's & Armies: I don't think this wonder is an imbalancer. Remember I seem to have hit my army limit. I can't build any more now and I have 8 in the field. I have 26 cities. Dunno what the army/city limits are, maybe that's it. I'd be pretty peeved if it only churned out armies every 30 turns. Building them is good, see next bit...

Shield Costs: Errr, Thor's was easy to build yes. The city I chose did it in 7 turns. Seemed easy for such a wonder. The Standard Bearers I was building every 2 turns and this wasn't my most productive city. Again, pretty cheap. However, given the army limit I seem to have encountered this doesn't seem to count for a great deal. The max I can do is 8 and that isn't enough to make it a walk away. The diplomacy and alliances more than make up for an imbalance from Thor's. Britian is still a treacherous, seething mass and 8 armies won't guarantee it.

Champs & Stealth: I've gone back to the editor and selected more stealth targets: all the local UUs Hill Fighter, Chev etc, local leaders, viking kings, and champs. When attacking a city with a local leader in it the Champ went for the Pitchforkman defending alongside the local leader. I don't think the stealth was working. Obviously I'll only know once the next game gets cranked up but I'll push this 2nd game further to find out how much of an imbalancer the Hammer can be first.

I'm also waiting to see if the world still ends in Dec. 869AD....

 

[Balam]

Wow, 8?! armies? I only had 4 at the end, 2 Raiders, 2 Champs. I didn't even know there were stealth units!! I actually still don't understand the native allies role--although exporting them as a strategic resource certainly buys off all sorts of favors from the AI. I just basically used them that way (my attitude was, if Gunthorm wants them, who am I to argue with tech or cashola! Let him have them!).


Good tips on the berserkers, I can't wait for the new version to come out...

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi there. I'm off all weekend but I played a bit more of the second game and here's some of the findings. Thought I'd get them out in case you wanted to work on the update of this on the weekend:

Thor's Hammer & Balance: It seems to be 3 cities per Standard Bearer (army). I had 8 in the field with 26 cities. I've now got 10 in the field with 31 cities. Can't build anymore Standard Bearers right now and all the land is populated, forcing me to stretch the economy in peace (see below) or go to war. This seems to be a good balancer to Thor's Hammer in itself. And with diplomacy checked I think it's further balanced. The array of crossing alliances and MPPs makes using all those armies quite tricky. Still a mighty advantage but not an out an out imbalancer.

Praises for the naval units: I had a fantastic naval encounter with the Skullsplitter Vikings on two fronts. Was at war with all the Irish kings simply to be able to pop all their little curragh ships that tried getting round Cornwall. Then they roped Skullboy into it. He sent down two stacks, each comprised of 4 Dragon boats; one past Wales to Cornwall, then another surprise stack arrived off the coast of East Anglia. They are a terrifying sight. Simply by tracing them and bombarding them down as they progressed made it easy to sink them in my waters. He ran away with only 1 left and gave me all his cash to make me stop. Good bit of drama and the Dragonboats were exciting units to use here. I control the English Channel but the Northern Vikings are unfriendly and now Flatnose has stopped my attempt to settle the walruses (nice one on the ivory btw ). I see another Viking Armada situation arising soon.

The Economy: I've been stretching this Viking Rule (Republic) government's economy to the limit. Receiving 12gpt thru trade and giving none out anymore. I have 3 major cities (12+ with good prodction) on wealth. 2 taxmen in effect, marketplaces everywhere. 0% spent on entertainment and science is at 0%. Yet I'm still running at a deficit. Currently -11gpt. Why? Maybe this explains it: Allowed units - 125, actual units out - 230 [supported by 9 metropolises (36 units), 15 cities (45 units) and 5 towns (5 units) and therefore 105 gpt from the treasury. Not sure if that's right about the city supports but it's costing me 105gpt to keep my army.

Basically it's the bounties that are keeping the economy afloat, from flax, slaves and also worker captures. I was at peace for a long time, tied up by alliances, so I've amassed a shed load of troops in preparation for the alliances expiring and it costs. Trying to get your cities' populations up for unit support is hard with such slow workers, as is 'roading the hell out of the place' for extra commerce. This is all pretty realistic and because of this there is real incentive to go after those resources and captures. War has broken out now and with sacked cities I'm swimming in cash again - loads of treasures being returned.

Kings: You mentioned in your intro that you wanted to encourage people to use their king units. However I've killed a few kings in the two games I've played and other than losing a pretty good unit it doesn't seem to do much harm. Likewise I lost my king early playing as Gunthorm this time and it didn't really matter. Champs soon eclipse the King units. Perhaps you need to rebuild the Chief's Hall after losing your king and the locals have to do something similar? Having them around makes it feel like a regicide but once you've decked them it doesn't make a diff. Should be more important to each tribe other than being 'a good unit'. I appreciate you want people to use them as much as possible but I just thought I'd mention it.

Current Situation in Gunthorm Game: Like I said the diplomacy more than makes up for Thor's Hammer. The whole thing has kicked off in a big way now. Both East Anglia and Cymru have sneak attacked me and the whole known world has fallen into alliances one way or another. I've got exposed borders everywhere with EA and Cym and although I'm sacking East Anglian cities with ease those Cymru Hill Fighters are an absolute liability!!! Killer troops!!! The armies can only take out 2 troops each turn or defend tiles/cities so they aren't that much use against wave after wave of these damn Hill Fighters. I'll have to wait till next week to find out how I fair.

I haven't progressed past the crash date of the last game as I've been working quite a bit but still no funny stuff with this game.

Still haven't seen a seamonster. Still having a blast.

 

[KingArthur]

Great update Rambuchan please post some screenshots. I'll be working on the new version this weekend. I don't have time to respond to all your points just now but thanks once again for the feedback. Have you seen whether the AI uses their dragonships to (raid) bombard the coast or other ships?

 

[KingArthur]

Still haven't seen a seamonster.

Do you believe in the Loch Ness Monster

 

[Rambuchan]

Just popped back for a few hours. Won't be playing much more on it this weekend but here are some screenies (don't know how to paste them into the post but they are attached). File names explain the shots.

 

[Rambuchan]

AFAIK the AI doesn't use - dragon ships to bombard (Skullboy just kept riding his stack further and further, no bombing or direct attacks - not 100% sure on this though as I had an encounter with Flatnose ships and ran, can't remember whether it was because of him attacking or not), berserkers (might be my lame rule mod making them steer clear), raiders to steal workers or pillage (I've tempted them loads and they just don't make peace time attacks on anything with the raiders)

 

[KingArthur]

I didn't think the AI would ship-ship bombard as I haven't seen that in a normal Civ3 game but I had hoped they would bombard coastal improvements. I think they must be using them purely as transports - I'll need to check the AI strategy flags on that one. Nice screenshots.

 

[Rambuchan]

Hi there. This is a shameless promotional posting of this great scenario. I've been having a great time on this mod so here are some more screen shots, file names explain them.

I'll give more feedback a bit later.

 

[Rambuchan]

OK, having played through to victory here are my final bits of feedback to both aid the upgrade and inform others on this scenario. This summarises my other feedback reports:

Overall:

- The gameplay is well balanced, excellently so I would say, and on a par with the official Conquests scenarios.

- This is very much an easy download and go scenario. For an idiot like me it was very easy to get going on it, unlike many other scenarios out there.

- Both the level and accuracy of historical detail as well as the use of varied and original artwork are equally impressive. Special mention needs to go to the great leaderheads and the write ups that do exist in the Pedia.

- Conceptually this is very well thought out (as one would expect from the bringer of 'Escape from Zombie Island'!). For example: Seamonsters appearing and swallowing boats and contents whole, the honest inclusion of treasures/bounties from Slave resource based improvements, Drinking Halls to keep your Champions and Ulfserker warriors happy, Meltdowns from unhappy Beserkers in Beserker Quarters, Beserkers as nukes!, Resources like 'Pictish Allies' allowing units to be built all bring greater historical accuracy to the piece and make for good gameplay.

- The dynamics of the competition are challenging but not overawing. The AI on a player's usual difficulty level can be treacherous and dangerous with HORDES of units (see below for more on AI). The geography and amount of rival civs (17 in total) make it VERY hard to achieve a Conq/Dom victory. It is possible though, albeit with dramatic alterations in a player's strategy. In this sense it is once again on a par with the official scenarios.

Weaknesses (which I understand are to be addressed in the upgrade):

- There is/was a bug relating to Bloodoaths and diplomacy. The advance is meant to enable diplomats but at present it doesn't. This is easily rectified by a user themselves and once done the game plays even better.

- The AI fails to use it's cool Viking navy well (does it ever?). It fails to use the special Beserker Units and also the Raider units' hidden nationality ability to steal workers, attack during peace and pillage resources. Again, what's new?

- As with most scenarios there is a bit of an impasse with the late game techs. 'Assimilation' brings about lesser military abilities, which is realistic but turns a player to 0% research and never moving beyond, kind of realistic in itself but not strictly great for gameplay. 'Industrialisation' seems to be misplaced here, and having railroads and radar towers in the 7th century is an uncharacteristic deviation from accuracy. Also with techs, it seems easy to research just one tech (Word Fame) and simply trade it for all other techs with other Vikings.

- The Pedia, although hilarious and historically insightful in places, does have many omissions and errors. This can be misleading for the first game and continues to frustrate until a player learns the units' abilities and the significance of resources/luxuries.

[Note, these pedia points include: The advances 'Bloodoaths' and 'Assimilation' in particular, radar towers, resources/luxuries, HN of units such as Longboats, the difference between workers and thralls and others I haven't noticed]

Weaknesses based on personal taste:

- Beserkers are overpowered as nukes. This is a matter of taste. I personally don't like nuking in regular games so find this a weakness. Others probably wouldn't. This is of course easy for a player to change at will.

- As mentioned already, there only seems to be one viable victory condition - that from Victory Points. There is a specific way a player must go about their game to achieve a dom/conq victory but it's possible. I don't see this as a major weakness.

Other notes:

AI Strategy: Owing to the geography of this scenario the AI is forced to simply march MASSES of troops in multiple SoDs. Of course it still uses them poorly (attacking easy troops in the open rather than taking cities) but it's enough to cause a player trouble. I was forced to make a sneak attack on a local leader to secure a VPL before anyone else and the AI remembered it. My sneak attack set a precedent which the AI gladly followed with terrifying shows of troops.

AI and Navy: AI Vikings never once bombarded with their boats; leaving improvements, land and naval units unharmed. They used them just as transporters. They DO make direct attacks on already weakened naval units though. The AI does stack its naval units and this makes it hard dealing with its naval campaigns.

Champions: Are meant to have Stealth Attack but I've tested it and they don't do it. An attack on a city with a local leader in it still left me attacking a pitchforkman. Easily rectified by a player.

King Units: Are simply good units but do get eclipsed by other units later in the game. Taking out or losing a king doesn't have as major impact on the game as one would expect. This encourages a player to use their King but I'd prefer more reward for killing a King.

Minor details: The Beer luxury icon doesn't appear in the city screen / Not clear what Assimilation does for you from the Pedia / Artwork for radar towers and railroads needs to be changed / I still believe giving dragon boats a bombardment range of 2 squares is better / Slaves seem to sit between a luxury and a resource, they allow bounty improvements like those from luxuries (flax, furs) but are registered as strategic resources in the city screen / It's not possible to register a victory in the Hall of Fame, which is asking a lot but would be nice!

Overall though this is one smooth playing, well thought out, highly immersive scenario. Many thanks and all the best for the upgrade!

 

[KingArthur]

thanks for the constructive critique and praise Rambuchan. Needless to say I'll take it all into account when making the update.