KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
Has anyone noticed if the AI uses berserkers in this scenario? Also have you seen the AI use the bombard ability of their longboats and dragonships. I've a feeling the AI can't handle ships with dual roles.
Going Viking (Conquests)
- Thread starter KingArthur
- Start date
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Hi there King Arthur. For me, living in Britain, this was an attractive scenario to play. I've DLed and am just wondering how I check in on what traits the rival tribes have? There isn't anything in the opedia and right clicking through the F4 screen obviously doesn't work as a result. How do we find out please?
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
This scenario needs a better civilopedia and that is one thing I will remedy in the next version. All the unit and improvements should be listed, alas I didn't get around to doing the civilisations themselves. You can find out by opening the biq file using the Civ3 editor and clicking on Edit Civilisations. From memory tho' I made all vikings have no special traits (just like the fedual japanese conquest that came with the game) so the only advantages the respective civs have is their starting locations. It's something I could change in the upcoming update so if you've any suggestions let me know.
Wait--I thought that some Vikings did have different traits!? I think the one in Ireland and the Bloodaxes are different from the top two civs. Anyway, the AI does NOT use berserkers, but instead chooses to research all the way to the industrial era and put down its swords. I actually had picts making railroads in my game. No matter, they still lost HAR HAR HAR.
I was actually unable to use the berserkers in my game (well, I used them for fun but then reloaded) because all non-Viking civs declared war on me and rushed in for the kill. I don't think any of the Vikings can withstand "rogue nation" status with all nations attacking at once, though.
What if the berserker idea was somehow split into two things, with the Berserker Hall getting flagged as a Nuc Power Plant and the actual unit as a self-destructing missile, maybe with collateral damage, lethal bombardment, and hidden nationality? This wouldn't piss off non-Viking AI as much, but the AI would love using them and still be somewhat pissed (as somehow the AI knows, even with my raiders, who the culprit is). You could give them a medium range and have them flying down on the cities much as with nukes.
The only drawback, of course, is that you wouldn't get the nifty pollution effects on the city attacked. Can a non-nuke unit produce pollution? Anyway, just some ideas...GO RAIDER ARMIES!
I was actually unable to use the berserkers in my game (well, I used them for fun but then reloaded) because all non-Viking civs declared war on me and rushed in for the kill. I don't think any of the Vikings can withstand "rogue nation" status with all nations attacking at once, though.
What if the berserker idea was somehow split into two things, with the Berserker Hall getting flagged as a Nuc Power Plant and the actual unit as a self-destructing missile, maybe with collateral damage, lethal bombardment, and hidden nationality? This wouldn't piss off non-Viking AI as much, but the AI would love using them and still be somewhat pissed (as somehow the AI knows, even with my raiders, who the culprit is). You could give them a medium range and have them flying down on the cities much as with nukes.
The only drawback, of course, is that you wouldn't get the nifty pollution effects on the city attacked. Can a non-nuke unit produce pollution? Anyway, just some ideas...GO RAIDER ARMIES!
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
I didn't think the AI would use them, although I have seen the AI use normal nukes and even in the Warhammer mod the AI will use the spell nuke so maybe I just have to tweak the stats a bit. Aha! A Light bulb has just gone on above my head thanks to you. I can make conventional missiles produce the dead bodies if I swap the graphic reserved for "craters". That way we get the AI using berserkers and keep the destructive after effects. Also, the modified crater graphic will work for other bombarding units. Thanks for the idea 
Rambuchan
The Funky President
I played further into a game and have some feedback.
Praises:
General Gameplay: The game seems to be well balanced. It's hard to run away with it and it seems hard for the AI to do so. I haven't played through to victory yet but it's a good challenge with scope to follow a few strategies so well done on that front!
Historical accuracy: Great stuff. I've done much reading on this period and region's history and you get a fairly accurate feeling of the age which concurs with much of my prior understanding. At the mo I am on 0% research, refusing to get to Assimilation because I don't want to give up my barbarian ways. Like many Viking rulers, I also don't understand why I'd want a nation of farmers - yet. I want to bash more heads and keep finding more land for my warriors to get drunk on. The fog of war seems to work well on here also, it's tough to know what the hell's going on everywhere else and Britain feels like a seething mass of competition. The little city-state kingdoms seem pretty realistic too.
As for alliances I don't know as much about this but it seems surprising you can't ally with other kingdoms. I suspect this may unbalance the gameplay a bit if it was included?
Special congrats on the pedia write up for the Drinking Hall. Indeed!!
Bones:
Beserkers: I too did a save before I used a beserker. Glad I did. I had a bunch of locals declare war on me, together with my rival Viking kindgom too. The effect of the beserker is too powerful to make it fun or even tempting to use. I reloaded and carried on with 'conventional weapons'. A kind of cruise missile status may be more appropriate IMO.
Also I was greatly alarmed to find that beserkers couldn't get into boats. I built my first BQ in my Flatnose capital (on an island) and now have a stack of Beserkers unable to do jack. Should be able to load them in boats for devastating raids.
And no I haven't seen the AI using them.
The Pedia: I appreciate that all the hard work has been done and the game plays well as it is but that's once you know what unit/improvement does what. For the first time it's tough due to errors and omissions in the pedia. Eg. a) The fortifications improvement links to the write up on the barracks. So I built loads of fortifications which didn't churn out veterans, then discovered Warrior Cult and the actual barracks. b) There was nothing to indicate that beserkers couldn't get into boats. The player has to infer it from the fact they are flagged as nukes. c) No indication of what your UU is. I made an attack with my flagship and triggered a GA. Didn't know it was coming, whereas it would have been nice to. d) It isn't clear what a 'dummy resource' is. The pedia can be misleading with regard to resources and luxuries what with different pictures and different names etc. e) It's not clear what Assimilation will do for my military. I'm told units upgrade to farmers. What I'm not told is if I will only be able to produce farmers once I have researched/acquired Assimilation. It's a nice effect having the fear of Assimilation but I don't think this is the way you want to create it. f) It's also unclear about Hidden Nationality of boats and ally units. I mean which ones have HN and which don't. Not a problem once you learn it but we should be informed by the pedia in an ideal world.
Diplomacy: F4 doesn't give you the ability to see who is at war with whom. I realise there are many many nations in the game but is this that difficult to implement? As mentioned above, there also seems to be a gap in the ability to form alliances. Maybe that will come up further into the game but I can't do it now. This is perhaps more significant than the more minor comments on the pedia.
Overall though I'm having a blast. It's a damn good challenge and very evocative of the period. None of my 'bones' comments take away from the overall gameplay which is great.
Praises:
General Gameplay: The game seems to be well balanced. It's hard to run away with it and it seems hard for the AI to do so. I haven't played through to victory yet but it's a good challenge with scope to follow a few strategies so well done on that front!
Historical accuracy: Great stuff. I've done much reading on this period and region's history and you get a fairly accurate feeling of the age which concurs with much of my prior understanding. At the mo I am on 0% research, refusing to get to Assimilation because I don't want to give up my barbarian ways. Like many Viking rulers, I also don't understand why I'd want a nation of farmers - yet. I want to bash more heads and keep finding more land for my warriors to get drunk on. The fog of war seems to work well on here also, it's tough to know what the hell's going on everywhere else and Britain feels like a seething mass of competition. The little city-state kingdoms seem pretty realistic too.
As for alliances I don't know as much about this but it seems surprising you can't ally with other kingdoms. I suspect this may unbalance the gameplay a bit if it was included?
Special congrats on the pedia write up for the Drinking Hall. Indeed!!
Bones:
Beserkers: I too did a save before I used a beserker. Glad I did. I had a bunch of locals declare war on me, together with my rival Viking kindgom too. The effect of the beserker is too powerful to make it fun or even tempting to use. I reloaded and carried on with 'conventional weapons'. A kind of cruise missile status may be more appropriate IMO.
Also I was greatly alarmed to find that beserkers couldn't get into boats. I built my first BQ in my Flatnose capital (on an island) and now have a stack of Beserkers unable to do jack. Should be able to load them in boats for devastating raids.
And no I haven't seen the AI using them.
The Pedia: I appreciate that all the hard work has been done and the game plays well as it is but that's once you know what unit/improvement does what. For the first time it's tough due to errors and omissions in the pedia. Eg. a) The fortifications improvement links to the write up on the barracks. So I built loads of fortifications which didn't churn out veterans, then discovered Warrior Cult and the actual barracks. b) There was nothing to indicate that beserkers couldn't get into boats. The player has to infer it from the fact they are flagged as nukes. c) No indication of what your UU is. I made an attack with my flagship and triggered a GA. Didn't know it was coming, whereas it would have been nice to. d) It isn't clear what a 'dummy resource' is. The pedia can be misleading with regard to resources and luxuries what with different pictures and different names etc. e) It's not clear what Assimilation will do for my military. I'm told units upgrade to farmers. What I'm not told is if I will only be able to produce farmers once I have researched/acquired Assimilation. It's a nice effect having the fear of Assimilation but I don't think this is the way you want to create it. f) It's also unclear about Hidden Nationality of boats and ally units. I mean which ones have HN and which don't. Not a problem once you learn it but we should be informed by the pedia in an ideal world.
Diplomacy: F4 doesn't give you the ability to see who is at war with whom. I realise there are many many nations in the game but is this that difficult to implement? As mentioned above, there also seems to be a gap in the ability to form alliances. Maybe that will come up further into the game but I can't do it now. This is perhaps more significant than the more minor comments on the pedia.
Overall though I'm having a blast. It's a damn good challenge and very evocative of the period. None of my 'bones' comments take away from the overall gameplay which is great.
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
Those are some "meaty" bones Rambuchan but I thank you for pointing them out. I will address all the game play issues in a future version - ETA next weekend. Berserkers should be able to board boats and yes they'd be better implemented as cruise missiles than nukes. Regarding the diplomacy issues. Blood Oaths should enable military alliances (and mutual protection pacts). What may be preventing you from allying and seeing who's at war with whom is the absence of embassies. I don't think I flagged a tech as enabling embassies in which case it's a bug. Any thoughts on the new map - gameplay issues?
Rambuchan
The Funky President
'Bones' was just a phrase my man. 
You'll see the only gameplay niggle I had was with the Beserkers. Everything else was simply about the explanation provided. Once you've worked out what does what it plays fine and good
So yes - I wondered what the point in researching Bloodoaths was. There's nothing in the pedia description so I simply presumed that it was an 'empty tech'. This naturally changes things. I'll get it researched, play some more later on and get back to you. This will most likely change my opinion of things a lot.
I can't find any fault with the gameplay at all man. It's all smooth and the treasures work well. Now that I've founded some slave and fur cities I can see them paying dividends and the idea of going peaceful to focus on this opens up yet another strategy to play. So nice one on the treasures, especially the fact returning them doesn't consume your unit.
You'll see the only gameplay niggle I had was with the Beserkers. Everything else was simply about the explanation provided. Once you've worked out what does what it plays fine and good So yes - I wondered what the point in researching Bloodoaths was. There's nothing in the pedia description so I simply presumed that it was an 'empty tech'. This naturally changes things. I'll get it researched, play some more later on and get back to you. This will most likely change my opinion of things a lot.
I can't find any fault with the gameplay at all man. It's all smooth and the treasures work well. Now that I've founded some slave and fur cities I can see them paying dividends and the idea of going peaceful to focus on this opens up yet another strategy to play. So nice one on the treasures, especially the fact returning them doesn't consume your unit.
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
Rambuchan said:'Bones' was just a phrase my man.
I got it. I just have an irresistible urge to pun. I wasn't taking offence, far from it, it's good to get feedback so as to improve. I'll need to do some work on that civilopedia for sure.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Right, had another little stint. Traded for bloodoaths and I still can't establish embassies. Are they very expensive? The diplomacy/espionage screen displays their city lists but no chance of doing anything else. Need another tech for embassies? I'm really looking for some RoPs to get me to the big fish that need bashing.
Also can I build military units other than farmers once assimilation has been researched?
Also can I build military units other than farmers once assimilation has been researched?
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
I'll check when I get home tonight and let you know.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Sweet. I'll have played further by then probably.
Blackbeard
Hangaround
An advance must be flagged with "enables diplomats". After that, in a new game, you can build embassies. I do that in the bloodoaths advance.
I also make thralls not to upgrade to workers because workers were available from the start and so i was never able to build the cheap thralls.
I dont get the assimilation tech but raiders, colonist and ulfserkers are flagged to upgrade to farmers. I´m quite sure that once you get the assimilation tech you can´t build them anymore.
I also make thralls not to upgrade to workers because workers were available from the start and so i was never able to build the cheap thralls.
I dont get the assimilation tech but raiders, colonist and ulfserkers are flagged to upgrade to farmers. I´m quite sure that once you get the assimilation tech you can´t build them anymore.
Yeah, I forgot about not having alliances--I actually did the whole game with no allies/MPPs. And I DID have a rabid fear of assimilation. Which was fine, because the AI did assimilate eventually and they were the Vikings who got spanked by the English. What is the advantage of the Assimilation and Industrialization?? techs? I think Industrial has to go (as I said, the Picts were making a railroad to the north of me for a while), but Assimilation has potential.
A potential solution to the Assimilation/Late Tech problem:
Assimilation still makes farmers, but now its the workers who upgrade.
It enables a government change: Anglo-Saxon Kingship
You can no longer build Raiders, Champions, or the other older Viking Units, but instead you get a better defender unit--so the Vikings become farmers and go on the defensive, stop offense. They're basically all defense, peacetime gov with appropriate bonuses.
A second last tech (replacing industrialization), called Resurgence, that allows the production of Viking Units again as well as a Norman knight (more powerful than English ones, only available to Hrolf's Vikings). It also enables a government change:
Norman Kingship. They're basically all offense (basically what I'm doing with these ideas is suggesting classic Democracy/Communism govs)
This would not only simulate Harald Hardrada's (failed) attempt to conquer England from Norway a second time in 1066, but also the (Frankish-Viking) Norman conquest that same year. So the task of the non-Hrolf Vikings would be to pillage/conquer as much as possible and then assimilate to build defenders (or kill Hrolf), while Hrolf's is to get to Resurgence ASAP. English AI would need to build up defense while holding off initial Viking wave. Hrolf's long-term advantage is already built into the game, just look at all that open land he doesn't have to conquer!
Both of these techs would need to take a LONG time to research so that you don't have radical change in gameplay, but I think it might add an interesting late game element for those hangers-on. You'd have to mess with the number of turns or tech research time, of course.
Anyway, just a thought as I'm sitting here waiting for people to come to my office
A great scenario, I've had a lot of fun with it (and remember these are only suggestions).
A potential solution to the Assimilation/Late Tech problem:
Assimilation still makes farmers, but now its the workers who upgrade.
It enables a government change: Anglo-Saxon Kingship
You can no longer build Raiders, Champions, or the other older Viking Units, but instead you get a better defender unit--so the Vikings become farmers and go on the defensive, stop offense. They're basically all defense, peacetime gov with appropriate bonuses.
A second last tech (replacing industrialization), called Resurgence, that allows the production of Viking Units again as well as a Norman knight (more powerful than English ones, only available to Hrolf's Vikings). It also enables a government change:
Norman Kingship. They're basically all offense (basically what I'm doing with these ideas is suggesting classic Democracy/Communism govs)
This would not only simulate Harald Hardrada's (failed) attempt to conquer England from Norway a second time in 1066, but also the (Frankish-Viking) Norman conquest that same year. So the task of the non-Hrolf Vikings would be to pillage/conquer as much as possible and then assimilate to build defenders (or kill Hrolf), while Hrolf's is to get to Resurgence ASAP. English AI would need to build up defense while holding off initial Viking wave. Hrolf's long-term advantage is already built into the game, just look at all that open land he doesn't have to conquer!
Both of these techs would need to take a LONG time to research so that you don't have radical change in gameplay, but I think it might add an interesting late game element for those hangers-on. You'd have to mess with the number of turns or tech research time, of course.
Anyway, just a thought as I'm sitting here waiting for people to come to my office
A great scenario, I've had a lot of fun with it (and remember these are only suggestions).
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
@Rambuchan & Blackbeard - you're right and I forgot to check enables diplomats. It should come with blood oaths as Blackbeard has done.
@Balam - Nice suggestions. The upgrading of offensive units to defensive ones will work great. The last gasp of "viking" power is also a nice idea that I'll try to work in.
@Balam - Nice suggestions. The upgrading of offensive units to defensive ones will work great. The last gasp of "viking" power is also a nice idea that I'll try to work in.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
So how do you check Bloodoaths to give diplomacy and alliance ability? I'm a totally noob at modding stuff myself.
Yeah having played further in I can see there are two options to me with the last 2 techs being what they are. Either I continue to hold off on the Assimilation and stay skull splitter churning out pre-farmer troops or research it and go completely peaceful. The second option would be boring I reckon as I'd just be playing the game out, delivery booty when it pops up. It would be good to work with Balam's suggestions to expand this path for players and a Ressurgence in place of Industrialisation would be sensible.
Still playing good though
Yeah having played further in I can see there are two options to me with the last 2 techs being what they are. Either I continue to hold off on the Assimilation and stay skull splitter churning out pre-farmer troops or research it and go completely peaceful. The second option would be boring I reckon as I'd just be playing the game out, delivery booty when it pops up. It would be good to work with Balam's suggestions to expand this path for players and a Ressurgence in place of Industrialisation would be sensible.
Still playing good though
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
Open up Civ3 Conquests Editor. It should be on the start menu. Once the the editor has started up click on File from the menu and then select the Open menu item. Find the Going Viking biq file and choose it. Once the scenario file is open click on the Edit button. This will open another screen. Choose the Civilisation Advances tab. Now look for Blood Oaths in the Civilisation Advance drop down list. In the Flags section, click on Enables Diplomats. Close the screen and save the file. The changes only apply to any new games you start.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
Thanks KA, will make changes tmrw. Time for bed now though. Having taken Scone and wiped the Scots out to secure Flatnose's second VPL I think some rest is needed Great fun. Thanks again.
Great fun. Thanks again.
Rambuchan
The Funky President
OK more feedback for you KA. Bad news first: Just now the game crashed twice in a row Dec. 869AD. Good news: I think it might have been my fault. I followed your directions with the Editor. I altered the following:- Beserkers to cruise missiles
- Blood Oaths, checked 'enable dimplomats'
- Then I also messed around with Hid.Nationality and Stealth Attack of Raiders and Allies. Then I saved on exiting the Editor.
After doing the above I loaded up the old game and I know you said the changes would not apply to it so I continued. I played out my turn and the game crashed at the same point each time: after the AI had had all its turns and before it went to my city builds and changes. Was this my fault? I hope so, then it means you're still good. Fingers crossed.
Anyway somemore feedback after reading through the whole thread again:
Minor ones:
- Radar Towers look ridiculous. Beacons or any other graphic cos its a good feature but radar towers? Also another pedia error report relating to these: we are told workers can't build radar towers, yet Ireland and England are sprawling with them.
- Raiders & Allies: As I mentioned I've got a little niggle with the Hid Naty of raiders. They keep getting popped if not defended. And the HN serves only as a weakness seeing as they don't have Stealth Attack. Why give Raiders HN? Is it to weaken them? Would you considered it wise giving the Ally units HN and SA? Otherwise there is no point in a Viking nation building them - Allies are after all Raiders with one less HP. Giving them SA abilities would give me a reason to build them. I may be missing something about Allies here though and I do have a feeling lots of Stealth Attacking Allies in the hands of the AI may be a serious imbalance into the locals' favour. What do you make of this?
- Looking forward to the update having the beserkers as amphib and ship loadable cruise missiles
, & diplomacy/blood oaths fixed. I will be doing them myself anyway.More Major Gameplay ones:
- I've read the discussion about the late gameplay and techs and have rethought. Although it's true that a domination or conquest victory would be nigh impossible on a player's usual difficulty level, I can see that victory is quite easy to achieve by VPs. I played my game on Regent (usually play Monarch) just to get used to the mod. I'm playing pretty slack and making frequent mistakes with the mouse but I've had the power lead soon after my first war and have mantained it throughout. But there are Viking and Local nations not far behind me in score and power. I expected this playing a first time mod on Regent. In VPs though I am a good margin ahead and there is no way the second place will catch me, unless they all dogpile me. I could peacefully defend and return bounty for the rest of the game and win easily. So....
The lategame tech ideas may not be such a good idea after all. Having established the above position I can see that any Viking Ressurgence units would serve only to completely mince the locals. These new units and techs would basically hand a domination or conquest victory over more easily but this is when a VPV is quite easy to achieve as is. I can't think of any suggestions right now on this but I agree the last two techs need to be tweaked, Indstn more so.
Basically there's a balancing act to perform between the victory conditions and it should be quite easy to perform. Victory Point Victory seems to be too easy. Dom & Conq. too hard.
KingArthur
Searching for the Holy Grail
I don't know why it crashed. Does it give any error?
About your points
Radar Towers are ridiculous I agree and shouldn't be there.
Raiders are for "Raiding" that is pillaging your rivals infrastructure and picking off isolated units without starting an all out war. The raider also turns defeated units into booty. If you start a war you can then use them to attack cities and I think they even have the amphibious ability. All in all a very powerful unit if used with the right tactics. The handicap is that the AI will hunt them down but that's precisely what I want, they are after all rogues.
Stealth attack only gives you the ability to choose which unit to attack (when attacking a stack of units). Champions have this ability (ie. they can call out the opposition's champion and kill him in one to one combat).
Allies - I don't like the way I've done Allies and I agree they're pretty useless as is. In the new version you will be able to take over a kingdom and build it's unique unit e.g. Picts, Clansmen etc each with a different set of unique abilities.
Win conditions - I'll look at these. I have a feeling that the AI isn't as good at returning booty as the player so I will need to balance this out in the next version.
thanks for your feedback, expect in a new version in 2 weeks time
About your points
Radar Towers are ridiculous I agree and shouldn't be there.
Raiders are for "Raiding" that is pillaging your rivals infrastructure and picking off isolated units without starting an all out war. The raider also turns defeated units into booty. If you start a war you can then use them to attack cities and I think they even have the amphibious ability. All in all a very powerful unit if used with the right tactics. The handicap is that the AI will hunt them down but that's precisely what I want, they are after all rogues.
Stealth attack only gives you the ability to choose which unit to attack (when attacking a stack of units). Champions have this ability (ie. they can call out the opposition's champion and kill him in one to one combat).
Allies - I don't like the way I've done Allies and I agree they're pretty useless as is. In the new version you will be able to take over a kingdom and build it's unique unit e.g. Picts, Clansmen etc each with a different set of unique abilities.
Win conditions - I'll look at these. I have a feeling that the AI isn't as good at returning booty as the player so I will need to balance this out in the next version.
thanks for your feedback, expect in a new version in 2 weeks time
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