Goody Hut Mechanism Reset Postpatch

I see you making an interesting assumption. Who cares that YOU "think" we're not discussing MP in this thread? How did you jump to that bizarre conclusion?

If your competency in Civ is anything like your grammar, I doubt you would be much competition.

I understand, that's what a "good" player do. Avoid any challenges in game, but focusing on others' grammars.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Moderator Action: Please stick to the subject of the thread. These diversions serve only to derail the thread. leif
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
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Ok, so regardless of what strategy is best, what are the actual changes in the goody hut system?
 
I don't see how easily people brush aside the valuable +2 science/culture/production from envoys. That's a free monument etc. and really valuable early on isn't it?
 
Ok, so regardless of what strategy is best, what are the actual changes in the goody hut system?

It seems that they now provide workers with a very reasonable chance of ~10% according to XML.

Other chances are given some adjustments, too. Those good terms do not get reduced in chance, so you can just take this as changing 10% not-so-useful bonuses into the most useful one.(builder)
 
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I don't see how easily people brush aside the valuable +2 science/culture/production from envoys. That's a free monument etc. and really valuable early on isn't it?

Totally agree with this. Even +2 Faith is slightly useful in that you don't need to run +1 Faith +1 Gold card for a Pantheon and even better if you're going for Religion.

A scout vs builder discussion seems strange to me, as multiple slingers seems clearly the best opening at this stage (assuming Deity & warmongering).

But perhaps peaceful play and/or lower difficulties may lead to other preferences?

Indeed, I guess at least OP is not playing on Deity. Nevertheless, neither do I play on Deity other than very rarely. Reading this forum I have got the feeling that there are no other viable strategies in Deity than Slinger/Archer rush and taking down a neighbor, and I prefer playing Civ such that games differ from each other as much as possible. And also I don't like my ass getting kicked.
 
AFIK Scouts don't earn better goody huts than any other units. As a high level player (immortal/deity) the only correct starting build is 3 slingers for a quick upgrade to archers. I use my opening warrior and packs of slingers to scout, usually getting at least 5 goody huts (which nearly always nets me a builder) and a couple of city state envoys. I can understand a scout as first build, but why would anyone go for a builder first? There usually isn't even 3 useful tiles you can improve at that stage.
 
AFIK Scouts don't earn better goody huts than any other units. As a high level player (immortal/deity) the only correct starting build is 3 slingers for a quick upgrade to archers. I use my opening warrior and packs of slingers to scout, usually getting at least 5 goody huts (which nearly always nets me a builder) and a couple of city state envoys. I can understand a scout as first build, but why would anyone go for a builder first? There usually isn't even 3 useful tiles you can improve at that stage.

Before @Lily_Lancer comes to tell you you're wrong - I will add my two cents, and provide the rationale - even on immortal/deity and on majority of starts, the builder(then settler) opening provides superior long-term value than the slingers rush. If properly executed it allows you to have an equal or better army, more captured cities, more eureka's hit, superior culture and faster progression through the civics tree (compared to slingers opening at turn 50 for example).
It is also much more exciting to survive a potential barb/enemy rush with just one warrior.
 
AFIK Scouts don't earn better goody huts than any other units.

They did in 5, so it's worth looking into if we don't have a definitive answer.

I'm not sure how we got on scout vs builder. I'm curious exactly how the patch changed the goody huts... I thought that's what this was about.
 
Lots of RNG in the huts. I've had games where I get nothing useful, and few huts, others where lots of huts and very nice rewards.
Scouts, boosts, pop, builders and traders.

I always go scout then builder.
 
Even if scouts don't get better goodies, they move at THREE not two, and in mixed terrain (and the movement rules in this game) this can result in moving two tiles versus one per turn (or of course 3 versus 2 on flat terrain). This allows for more exploration, last game on a 13/22 large low sea map on immortal I got the first envoy in 4 CS, a good percentage. And, three even stayed alive....

So, I will for now on open with scouts, unless the terrain is such where it warrants a builder (islands/small land masses) and I can see that right away. Scouts cost no maintenance, so they can be used later in game to pop a few more huts in the middlegame.

And, I say this from a player who never used to build a scout, ever, until this patch.

EDIT: And those who only build slingers, just remember that a warrior gives your city twice as much defense value as a slinger (20/10) unless it's your capital where the percentage is less (23/13). That difference can be huge when defending a rush against your cities. So, I'd at least have one warrior in the city center (this can be your original warrior if you are using scouts to explore, just sayin').
 
AFIK Scouts don't earn better goody huts than any other units. As a high level player (immortal/deity) the only correct starting build is 3 slingers for a quick upgrade to archers. I use my opening warrior and packs of slingers to scout, usually getting at least 5 goody huts (which nearly always nets me a builder) and a couple of city state envoys. I can understand a scout as first build, but why would anyone go for a builder first? There usually isn't even 3 useful tiles you can improve at that stage.

@civtrader6's detailed guide to a sub-T140 SV in another thread gives a good overview of a builder-settler (or scout-builder-settler) opening. If it goes well, you get something like:

- builder out for Craftsmanship eureka, start building settler;
- when settler is out (typically ~T21, sometimes earlier if you didn't build a scout), you should have Craftsmanship, switch to Agoge and build slingers (say, about 8 slingers in 10 turns).
- when army is out, you have early empire (capital at 4 pop, 2nd city at 2 pop), switch to colonization and build more settlers.

So say your capital is making 10 prod / turn when you build the first settler, then the choice of building the scout or not earlier (30 production) delays the first settler by 3 turns. I'll leave it to others to discuss about the value tradeoff. In any case, it doesn't matter if the builder is idle for a few turns or not, since you don't need craftsmanship right away, just after the settler.

Of course, this doesn't work exactly as planned if there are really bad barbarians, or a very early DoW from an AI. But like @civ6trader says, the defender's advantage in this game is enough (plus potential AI tactical mistakes) that you don't need that many units to repel a rush.
 
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Great thread! I have been doing 3x Slinger and 1x Warrior before all else for a while to execute an early neighbor rush, no matter what civ I'm playing. But the points here about goody huts and envoy bonuses really make the case for the early scout. I'm still situational on Workers, since if I'm doing a Slinger rush my priority is Archery and thus there are few tiles I can improve. But I might revisit that too. Thanks for the insights :nope:
 
I, too, go for scout first. I just like exploring more than building three improvements and then do nothing again for a few turns... I don't care whats better, I care about what I like more!
 
*Starts a new game with builder
*Comes out, tries to build settler.
*3 Horse Units come out of nowhere.
Whatever!
kinda like the slinger, builder, slinger, settler, slinger slinger x5 approach anywhere above King level. You lose a little momentum early, but the added security of these units ensure that any silly AI DoWs are nothing to fear, and you soon claw your way back into the race.
 
Honestly, it seems to me it much depends on the type of map you're playing, no ? If I play Pangea, as everyone seems to assume this thread is only about, I tend to go archer rush because 1) there will be barbs and 2) there will be an opportunity to take advantage of a civ... unless I decide to play really non aggressive, then I might go scout...

But when I play Island maps or fractal (which I often do), my start will be more map dependant... I might even go very fast into naval units...but usually I'll scout with warrior and a 2nd unit, whatever I decide it is

Although I must admit, I'm not a deity player... more emperor/immortal...

I'll say I never go builder first because it seems to me I will probably waste between 3-10 turns before I can use them adequately (research times...) always seems like a waste to start the game
with units I won't use fully, but since a lot of good players here seem to think builder-settler is an optimal start, I'll look into it

anyways, my 2 cents... stop assuming everyone plays pangea all the time :)
 
anyways, my 2 cents... stop assuming everyone plays pangea all the time :)

Right, there're different map settings.

But in fact, after browsing every map setting I found in fact a builder is an optimal start in most maps of every set of setting. Although the strategy of your warrior, and the use of that builder, may be very different.

In Pangea and Continents it's clear to start with a builder. (This reason is explained dozens of times in this forum. Anyone who is doubtful to this one, welcome for the $100 bet.)

In fractal and islands it is much clearer, since builders can explore before Shipbuilding in island maps, we actually make it improve 2 tiles then act as a navy scout.
 
You keep insisting that we give you money, but you've never actually explained why you think that Builder is the best start under almost all circumstances. I'm highly skeptical.
 
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