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Gorgo is S Tier Now

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by MarigoldRan, Apr 19, 2019.

  1. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    My main point is they're one of the few civs that can still do an Oligarchic "swordsmen" rush where you mass a dozen of them and go.

    Like you can spam out 50 of these units, pay no upkeep, no problem. No resource issue. Each one is str 39 with Oligarchy. +10 vs melee once they get the promotion. It's not like anyone can mass swords to counter them, and the AI is too dumb to mass archers.

    With the nerf to city defense strength, they massacre everything in a tide of hoplites.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
  2. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    Alright Marigold, I just finished about 67 turns on an Emperor game on Quick Speed. I swallowed the Inca my nearest neighbor, but that fight was tougher than I expected it to be.

    My observations:

    1) Promoted Hoplites while nice are still slower than a 2 promotion swordsman that can move 3 tiles.
    2) The Inca had a horseman in their capital and had 40 something combat strength against a hoplite attack! Eventually he moved it out and I took it easily.
    3) Now that the war is over, I have a very very large army (a slow one) but large. I had not built a single campus but I am 2 turns away from Pikeman technology. The synergy of all those kills gave me mercenaries a while back.
    4) I was not able to test /w God of The Forge because the !@#$#@ Inca stole it before I could. Another reason why that fight was harder than necessary. I still had 3-4 turn Hoplites which is still good enough.

    Verdict: While Gorgo is indeed very strong, I don't think she is S Tier strong. She is no Sumeria with warcarts, she is no Nubia with that nasty archer, etc. etc. Definitely A Tier though, so if I had to revise my Tier list from before GS, I would easily put her in the A Tier. Gorgo is a bit of a tweener because she kind of straddles the fence between A and S, but most S Tier civs have almost no counters and even in multiplayer requires flawless play and no mistakes to defend against a Sumeria neighbor sending a pain train of warcarts. Australia is arguably the worst S Tier civ. Is Gorgo stronger than Australia? Hard to say for sure in my opinion, but I would guess that most players on this forum would say no. Their 100% production bonus if DOW'd makes them tough to pin down, even with warcarts. Most Tier A Civs can straddle the fence of being S Tier if they have the right situation and map roll in their favor. I feel like Inca is better than Korea in some ways because if they get surrounded by mountains from enemies and get enough +3 to +5 campuses, they are faster to a science victory. Inca are a bit controversial it seems anyway. I've seen plenty saying they are S and some saying A on this forum and other places. Me personally I rate them A, because if they do not have enough mountains they are not consistently strong enough. Korea is the same pretty much no matter how the map rolls.

    I'll give you this, Gorgo is stronger than Overrated As Hell Kupe. Too many people here pump him up as super strong or even broken pre last patch. I just don't see it.
     
  3. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    That's fair. Gorgo is either S- or A+.

    The main thing is that GS has moved them up. Due to the resource restrictions, UU swords aren't that good anymore. But Gorgo can still spam hoplites, meaning that they're one of the only two civs that can still do the traditional Oligarchic melee spam.

    You may not get 100% extra production as Gorgo, but you do get a crapload of culture from war against the AI. Add in the extra wildcard slot and their awesome hill bias, and they arguably have a better early game econ than Australia.

    Also, Kongo is now A as their UU is also resourceless and is actually a swordsmen. The fact that Kongo's UU is virtually immune to archers, AND with the nerf to city defenses, means they have no good counters until gunpowder (knights are too expensive and resource-intensive).

    EDIT: Incan UU easily makes them S-tier. They're like Nubia except with better econ bonuses.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2019
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  4. iammaxhailme

    iammaxhailme Chieftain

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    This exact thing is why I so rarely consider UUs when I think about "how much do I like civ X?"

    There are a few exceptioins, like the Roman Legion or Canadian Mountie which have some utility use, or ones that remain useful for a really long time like the Varu, but for ones like the Hoplite which are just "we're great at fighting for about 30 turns then we are generic again" units I don't care
     
  5. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Hoplites are cost effective against knights. They can also be upgraded to pike and shot, which are excellent against everything.
     
  6. NukeAJS

    NukeAJS Chieftain

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    I also miss how all promotions were listed on the unit instead of just the ones you choose. I'm specifically thinking about Spear of Fion and the Matterhorn promotions.
     
  7. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Chieftain

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    Except infantry... and toas.
     
  8. Disgustipated

    Disgustipated Warlord

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    Without zooming in my tablet, the thread title looks like Georgia is S tier now. :D

    What is this nerf to city defense strength I'm hearing about? I only see it on like 1 ai Civ per game, unless you are referring to something different. Wall strength was increased in GS.

    As for the thread title, it should read Pericles is S tier now. :p
     
  9. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Chieftain

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    I don't think OP knows what he/she is talking about. they even claimed unique unit for kongo is resourceless.
     
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  10. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...ity-defense-score-is-calculated-in-gs.644866/

    It's noticeable in my games.

    Also, while Wall strength was increased, damage from walls was reduced.
     
  11. Tiger Genocide

    Tiger Genocide Chieftain

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    Slight oversight on his part but he still makes good points in spots. He is right about one overall thing, the resource cost changes affected more than we initially thought.
     
  12. Morningcalm

    Morningcalm Keeper of Records

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    I don't think Gorgo is strong enough to be S tier. The civ ability is underwhelming, the district bonus is underwhelming (especially since the envoys you get from them can be easily murdered by spies or annulled by city-state conquest by the AI), hoplites are decent but not as OP as Sumerian war carts or Nubian pitati (among a range of other devastating unique units), and the culture ability really wears itself thin later on (granted, you could probably win earlier, but there are many civs that are both more flexible and stronger in conquest than Gorgo--notably, unlike Montezuma or a whole range of others, Gorgo does not get combat strength bonuses for troops other than her unique unit).
     
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  13. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Hoplites cost as much as Eagle Warriors but at 35 strength instead of 28. The extra wildcard is very powerful, Acropolis are half cost and provide +2 adjacenecy next to town center, spies don't show up until much later, and you get so many envoys that city-state conquest isn't a big deal. You swim in culture early on from combat victories, which is the most important part, and with acropolises you swim in culture later on, too, so I don't see where you're coming from except to troll.

    I mean, if you're arguing the Greeks don't generate enough culture, it's pretty obvious you're just pulling poop out of your butt.

    Moderator Action: Please try to find a better way to say this in future. leif
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2019
  14. Pietato

    Pietato Warlord

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    Pericles S tier.
    Gorgo A tier.
     
  15. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    Eh, I'd flip it the other way around.
     
  16. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Chieftain

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    Pericles dose it better with a lot of city states
     
  17. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    By then you've already won.

    Gorgo's bonus means you get Agoge and Pol Phil faster.
     
  18. Kwami

    Kwami Warlord

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    But Gorgo's bonus is only really great if you have a lot of barbarians or a somewhat weak AI nearby. Pericles's ability is pretty much always great and a couple of Acropolises can get you a few early suzerains. Plus, Pericles's ability is good throughout the game, but Gorgo's stops being really useful after the early game.
     
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  19. Kupe Navigator

    Kupe Navigator Chieftain

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    What do you mean? Gorgo isn't that great in domination. You are better off using Alexander since he does have actuall advantage in warfare.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2019
  20. MarigoldRan

    MarigoldRan WARLORD

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    No. It's great with Hoplite pushes and playing catch up while fighting off early AI DOWs.

    Early game (first 50 turns) is when you need bonuses the most. When your culture generation at turn 25 is 2/turn, getting 10 culture killing an AI or barb warrior is a big deal. Generally, you won't get Acropolises until you've pretty much already won the game.
     

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