GOTM 04 - Pre-Game Discussion

[kingjoshi]

thanks for the reply. I'm just wondering how people balance building the Pyramids (which even with chopping will require MANY turns) and also building settlers, workers, military units, etc. I guess I'll keep playing until it hits me.

The more I play, the more I realize how stupid I am in this game. Maybe I'm just getting mentally (and physically) lazy...

 

[Sparts]

Building the Pyramids (or any wonder for that matter) is a trade-off. You will not be able to expand as quickly as when you'd be building settlers, workers and military units of course. You will have to do the math, or make the guestimate whether the benefits of the Pyramids (or another wonder) outweigh the this slower start. The benefits of Pyramids, especially on Emperor can be huge. Growing your capital to 7 instead of 4 and an early engineer (for a next wonder) can mean the difference between victory and defeat.

All this is of course highly dependent on other factors such as other civlizations nearby, a great second or even third city site present, enough forrest for chopping.

From the looks of it, chopping will be hard, as there are only three forrests nearby. I will be chopping those forrest, but haven't determined yet whether this will be to speed up construction of a settler, a workboat or a wonder (and which wonder?). Perhaps my warrior will uncover an incredible site with gold, stone and plenty of forrests in its radius. Chopping for a settler in city1 and subsequently for the pyramids at city two would be a no-brainer.

Likewise, a lack of good city sites with plenty of other civilizations nearby will neccesitate rapid expansion. On the other hand, limited competition might make a slow start with a wonder built a better way to go.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

thanks for the reply. I'm just wondering how people balance building the Pyramids (which even with chopping will require MANY turns) and also building settlers, workers, military units, etc. I guess I'll keep playing until it hits me.

MANY - not necessarily. In an ideal case, if you can get stone and you're Gandhi=industrious, each forest chop near the city gives you I think 75 hammers. 6 chops and you've basically completed the pyramids, even without any input from the city. If you have organized religion too it's even better.

6 chops = 18 worker-turns. 3 workers on it and, allowing for movement between forests, they can do it in perhaps 8 turns. OR: you have a mined plained hill (4 hammers) plus city square (1 hammer) plus a square with copper or iron (say 5 hammers), then that's 10 hammers. 50% bonus for industrious and your city is giving you 15 hammers/turn to build the pyramids. 25/turn if you have stone. If you're willing to cut growth or even let the city starve for a bit, that's perfectly doable on a size 3 city. Of course that ideal rarely happens. More typically I can't afford to chop that many forests, or I don't have stone, or some of my workers are occupied elsewhere anyway, and it'll take me 20-30 turns to complete the pyramids. You gotta be ruthless about it though. On one of my practices today, I got to a point where parthenon was due in 5 turns. I could've chopped one more forest with my 2 workers to shorten that to 3 turns. I thought 'what the heck, it's nearly done. I got other things for my workers to do.' Yep, you guessed it, got beaten to the parthenon by ONE turn.

BALANCING - Can't speak for anyone else, but personally I find if I'm going for early wonders, then the early game seems to work quite well if I quickly chop myself up to three cities and three workers. Ideally one city will have one of gold/gems/silver to keep my science up, and one will have stone or marble to help some of my wonders. Then I put two cities to work on the wonders, and the third deals with my other requirements. PROVISO: On today's experiments, I can get this to work in the early game - up to about 500AD and end up in a reasonable position relative to the other civs at that point. Other than my GOTM-early-game-practices, I've never played emperor before, so I have no idea how this strategy will impact chances of winning later on. And it does require a lot of careful balancing in the early game to pull it off - so easy to go wrong with a few mistakes.

The more I play, the more I realize how stupid I am in this game. Maybe I'm just getting mentally (and physically) lazy...

LOL! I'm sure you're not stupid One thing I have learned to do though is force myself not to play for more than an hour or two without taking a break. Otherwise, I get mentally so engrossed I don't notice I'm getting tired - and that's when the stupid mistakes come in (the pyramids built 500 years ago and forgot to change civics, the city that's still at size 3 coz I forgot to turn off avoid growth 300 years ago....)

 

[Memphus]

Well my last test game is done,
Depending on my neighbours and the size of the continent(please be big)/island(oh no) I am 95% sure I will not build a settler.

Not only that I won't build a worker for quite some time (timed to come out the turn I fiinish Alpha)

Fast Domination, It can be done even though it is against the flow this month...normal speed

 

[Ribannah]

Tried to copy Toller's start. but instead of Bronze Working I got only 46 gold from that same hut on the same turn. I am still waiting for my first tech from a hut.
Managed to squeeze in 5 cities and got both Hinduism and Judaism, but Egypt got all other religions and almost all wonders with a great person like on every turn, or so it seems. Techwise I brokered my way to the top, and I have the most people.
But if we get Egypt as a neighbour, war is almost the only option.

 

[malekithe]

Just something I thought needed pointing out, as the start lends itself quite nicely to the use of slavery...

Be aware of the buginess of pop-rushing. On normal speed, you're supposed to get 30 hammers per population point, which is then modified by production enhancing buildings. However, the actual number of hammers produced is always some mulitple of 30.

What this means in practice is thus:

If I have a forge, I expect to get 37(.5) hammers per pop point used in pop-rushing. If I have an axeman in the queue with 15 hammers left to completion, after pop-rushing, the overflow on the axeman will only be 15 hammers instead of the expected 22. Your unit of population was sacrificed for only 30 hammers.

This can be used to your advantage as well... If, again, you have a forge, but this time the axeman has 32 hammers remaining to completion, you will again only have to spend one pop point to rush him. However, you will end up with an overflow of 28 hammers. You just sacrificed one population in producing 60 hammers (nearly 2 complete axemen from one unit of population).

The other situation to be careful of is rushing when the number of hammers remaing is an exact multiple of the number of hammers each population point is worth. In this scenario, you will have to spend one more pop point than expected, with out any gain in production. If, for instance, you have no production modifiers and are rushing an axeman that has 30 hammers remaining, you going to have to spend 2 population but only get 30 total hammers out of them.

Also, keep in mind, when rushing on the first turn of production of anything, the expected output from each citizen is reduced by 33%.

 

[Memphus]

@malekithe

Great point but your example is a little confusion to the keep observer (but still understood) because you don't get the extra production on a axeman from OrgReligion (buildings only)

On another note I saw in another post about OrgReligion bonus on Wonders.. I don't think this is the case, but can't test it right now. I will later.

From my understanding you only get a 25% bonus on buildings (lighthouse, library)
-not wonders
-not projects
-not units

But I could be wrong

 

[Archbob]

Where the Download?

 

[malekithe]

you don't get the extra production on a axeman from OrgReligion (buildings only)

Good catch! I changed the original post to use forges instead.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

If I have a forge, I expect to get 37(.5) hammers per pop point used in pop-rushing. If I have an axeman in the queue with 15 hammers left to completion, after pop-rushing, the overflow on the axeman will only be 15 hammers instead of the expected 22. Your unit of population was sacrificed for only 30 hammers.

This can be used to your advantage as well... If, again, you have a forge, but this time the axeman has 32 hammers remaining to completion, you will again only have to spend one pop point to rush him. However, you will end up with an overflow of 28 hammers. You just sacrificed one population in producing 60 hammers (nearly 2 complete axemen from one unit of population).

The other situation to be careful of is rushing when the number of hammers remaing is an exact multiple of the number of hammers each population point is worth. In this scenario, you will have to spend one more pop point than expected, with out any gain in production. If, for instance, you have no production modifiers and are rushing an axeman that has 30 hammers remaining, you going to have to spend 2 population but only get 30 total hammers out of them.

Interesting. So let's make sure I've understood what you're saying correctly...? You're saying that if I'm producing an axeman in a city with 25% production boost from somewhere (forge or police state):

1. If the axeman is 32 hammers short of completion then on pop-rushing I'll lose 1 pop point, complete the axeman, and have 28 hammers towards the next unit?
2. If I wait a turn and the city adds 2 hammers in that turn, then on pop-rushing I'll now lose 2 pop, and just complete the axeman with no hammers left over?
3. If I wait a few more turns and the city adds 15 hammers in the meantime, then pop-rushing wil lose me 1 pop point, complete the axeman and have 15 hammers left over? And I'm guessing the generalization is that the 37.5 figure is rounded down to 30 if you can round down and complete production, but rounded up if rounding down won't complete the production. Yes?

If so, that's wierd, very buggy, and explains why I never got the hang of pop-rushing (tried it a couple of times but gave up coz I couldn't make any sense of how many hammers you got). Thanks!

 

[Archbob]

Actually Ghandi is my favorite to play until up the Noble difficulty, but then the lack of Financial on Prince and up start to hurt. It doesn't look like this map has too many trees ....

 

[kingjoshi]

Interesting. So let's make sure I've understood what you're saying correctly...? You're saying that if I'm producing an axeman in a city with 25% production boost from somewhere (forge or police state):

1. If the axeman is 32 hammers short of completion then on pop-rushing I'll lose 1 pop point, complete the axeman, and have 28 hammers towards the next unit?
2. If I wait a turn and the city adds 2 hammers in that turn, then on pop-rushing I'll now lose 2 pop, and just complete the axeman with no hammers left over?
3. If I wait a few more turns and the city adds 15 hammers in the meantime, then pop-rushing wil lose me 1 pop point, complete the axeman and have 15 hammers left over? And I'm guessing the generalization is that the 37.5 figure is rounded down to 30 if you can round down and complete production, but rounded up if rounding down won't complete the production. Yes?

If so, that's wierd, very buggy, and explains why I never got the hang of pop-rushing (tried it a couple of times but gave up coz I couldn't make any sense of how many hammers you got). Thanks!

My impression was that two those incidents (1 and 2) were separate. If you have a bonus, then at 30 hammers, one pop should be sufficient. It's whenever you need exactly so many hammers that another pop dies. So, no bonues, you're down 60 hammers, 3 pop points instead of two and it's better to wait for the extra hammer.

So, if you have a 25% bonus, and need 75 hammers, that's exactly two population, but they'll take a third. At 74, you lose two and get a hammer overfill. One could say it's a bug, but it's been known pre-patches so I assume that's how they want it.

Slavery can be very useful. Especially in a high food city with Globe Theater!

 

[karmina]

I know it sounds crazy, but I'll probably only build one settler, and that rather late.

Just quit Ronald's map at 1500AD, with NO settler ever built, 10 turns to Riflemen, techwise on par with everyone, one city flipped to me around 1000AD.

Managed to get Stonehenge, Pyramids, Parthenon, Gardens; got beaten to Oracle and GL. Queen Ugly made a halfhearted attempt to crush me with maces & crossbows - no problem. 3-5 scientists most of the time, but I had rather bad luck with GPs: 2 artists, and 2 engineers when I didn't need them (still unused).

Granted, I'm in no position to win (Egypt & Japan have more than double score), but I do hope for stone or marble in the actual GOTM as well as a nice Adventurer bonus...preferably Fishing + Worker/Archer (I haven't played any Emperor game before).

 

[Jove]

Being the ice age, I hope for some kind of man-proto man continent-crossing thing. And the clams are so attractive, sailing is a must, and why not an early aquatic looksee?

 

[karmina]

Well my last test game is done,
Depending on my neighbours and the size of the continent(please be big)/island(oh no) I am 95% sure I will not build a settler.[...]
Fast Domination, It can be done even though it is against the flow this month...normal speed

So you are 95% sure that the hill contains iron? Why? Good friend with Ainwood?

 

[Matthevv]

I tried a couple of games last night with the Ice Age settings. I was interested to see what Emperor level is like, and also what are the chances of building the Pyramids, and founding early religions on this level. So my research was polytheism->masonry->monotheism. After that it was techs to allow my fast worker to do his stuff, to have archers for defence. I didn't chop or whip, so that I could see whether it was possible without (and anyway I wasn't researching bronzeworking early).

The first game I settled on a plains hill by floodplains. No special resources at all. I built a second warrior then set build to stonehenge. My city was limited to size 3 by health due to the floodplains. I got to Hinduism first, then when I got masonry, set build to Pyramids and research to monotheism. I got to Judaism first, and got the Pyramids. By this point I was surrounded, but with Judaism and a Great Prophet from Stonehenge building the special building, the nearby Civs were all Jewish so I was able to maintain good relations. There was nothing in my city area except farms and mines, so I didn't care too much about being pillaged because of my fast worker. I joined in any wars that my friends were having, and if anyone attacked me set my friends on them, eventually getting pacts signed. By running specialists and representation I could keep up with tech, with the aid of a steady stream of great persons, until the late game, when I fell behind. My huge culture resulted in one city flipping to me, giving me a grand total of two cities! In the end one of my friends declared war on me I had forgotten to renew defensive pacts with the others, so resigned.

The second game I had sheep and deer in radius, plus some hills and forests. Research path was the same, but I didn't build stonehenge, getting a fast worker instead. I got Hinduism, missed Judaism, and have just built the Pyramids, just by working deer, mines and forests. City size was 4 due to happiness.

So far, it seems that getting early religions and wonders on these settings is possible, even without chopping or slavery. Barbarians were not a big problem despite only having warriors. Fast worker helps as he can rebuild anything that gets pillaged quite fast, and can nip out of the way if threatened. The drawback is lack of early expansion.

 

[ADHansa]

Having played my last 10 started games on Emporer/normal speed/6 opponents/continets i think this will be good first GOTM game for me.

My first intention when seing the game was research Fishing/BW or BW/Fishing then Hunting/Archery or Wheel/Hunting/Animal depending on if i can get copper or not.

Havent thought on how i am going to build in the start, will count on that before i start.

Then i noticed alot of foodresourses compared to luxuryresource. I don't want to get hung at 4/3 population limit so I am thinking about gambling for Polytheism right away to try to get some extra happyness by religion. But i did that in my last game with Saladin. So most likely i will try to use the thing that is so special about this starting point, the two clams. And then make sure to remember to to adjust my later strategy to get more happyness.

If there is much coastline i will build few cottages and try to get Great Lighthouse/Colossus instead and get a coastalbased economy going. If there is a lot of forest or Marble or Stone i will also build more Wonders.

As i result i have to military dominate the game before Great Lighthouse / Colossus becomes obsolte and towns has becomed to important.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

My huge culture resulted in one city flipping to me, giving me a grand total of two cities! In the end one of my friends declared war on me I had forgotten to renew defensive pacts with the others, so resigned.

Playing that way would certainly solve my problem from GOTM3 where I eventually had to just retire and submit an incomplete game 'coz the game had taken 33 hours so far and I there was this issue that life extends beyond civilization. Having one city does kinda reduce your options for winning though (automatically rules out culture and domination), probably rules out space race as you wouldn't have enough production capacity, ditto for conquest, which leaves diplomatic. Could be an interesting challenge. Not sure I'd want to chance throwing all my eggs in one basket so early in the game though.

 

[Matthevv]

Playing that way would certainly solve my problem from GOTM3 where I eventually had to just retire and submit an incomplete game 'coz the game had taken 33 hours so far and I there was this issue that life extends beyond civilization. Having one city does kinda reduce your options for winning though (automatically rules out culture and domination), probably rules out space race as you wouldn't have enough production capacity, ditto for conquest, which leaves diplomatic. Could be an interesting challenge. Not sure I'd want to chance throwing all my eggs in one basket so early in the game though.

I think it must be just about impossible to win with only two cities like this. Even getting to Mass Media first and getting the UN built would be very hard without any OCC-mode assistance. It was an experiment initially to see if I could get the pyramids without chopping or whipping, and then how the research from the specialists would compare with AI tech rate. Then I became curious to see how far I could take the one city. If playing normally I would have chopped and whipped to complete the pyramids much quicker, and then been much more aggressive to grab a reasonable number of cities, and/or disable one or more neighbouring Civs early on. Just having one city, one worker and all your units fortified in your city does reduce the burden of micro-management though!

 

[Memphus]

So you are 95% sure that the hill contains iron? Why? Good friend with Ainwood?

Well I am unsure of what consists of friends in the community as to some extent I see everyone as my friend . However on Ronald's save file there was no iron only copper. I am figuring that I should be able to get one of the two. If once I have bw and iw, I see no iron or copper in my potential radius, then I will produce a settler to get it.

Where there is a will there is a way