GOTM 04 - Pre-Game Discussion

[culdeus]

I'm hoping the hill doesn't contain Iron that just the plains have it. Everything is hammer short as it is.

Ok, I went back to ronalds game to develop a CS slingshot gameplan.

Obviously Fishing -> SomeTheism -> Priest -> Write -> CoL

But what do you do with production? Warrior Warrior Boat Boat then what?

I think it makes some sense to worker/settler pump whilst this is going on. I would hold off on settling the settler until the Oracle is done because it will force research % down more. Is this the right play or do you slow down oracle slingshot for the purpose of growing the second city faster.

Is there enough time for a library to make a difference for anyone? I doubt it. Probably better to spend the bread on settlers? Anyone?

 

[baboonfan]

Well, I have to agree with a few here, this difficulty level makes victory almost impossible for noobs. I understand where the complaints are coming from. I suppose if you suffer a defeat, you can get a maximum of 10K points or something like that. That's not going to make a party.

But oh well. I will take on this and hope to score high on the list of people who got crushed. Still. We could go back to prince and set the challenge to come from no resources or something. An islands map perhaps, with only cows and clam on the first, tiny island.

Well, gotta go and hit the retire button in this months GOTM if I plan to get it submitted.

 

[Ribannah]

Playing that way would certainly solve my problem from GOTM3 where I eventually had to just retire and submit an incomplete game 'coz the game had taken 33 hours so far and I there was this issue that life extends beyond civilization.

Tell me about it. I have conquered half the world in 4OTM3, but the turns are getting so long that it is hopeless. But I hope to become a little faster with each game so that I can one day submit a result.

 

[Big Pig]

I'm hoping the hill doesn't contain Iron that just the plains have it. Everything is hammer short as it is.

Ok, I went back to ronalds game to develop a CS slingshot gameplan.

Obviously Fishing -> SomeTheism -> Priest -> Write -> CoL

But what do you do with production? Warrior Warrior Boat Boat then what?

I think it makes some sense to worker/settler pump whilst this is going on. I would hold off on settling the settler until the Oracle is done because it will force research % down more. Is this the right play or do you slow down oracle slingshot for the purpose of growing the second city faster.

Is there enough time for a library to make a difference for anyone? I doubt it. Probably better to spend the bread on settlers? Anyone?

I think the standard CS slingshot with the Oracle might be a bit of a gamble at this level - delaying Oracle completion until you have CoL may give the Oracle (+probably CoL) to an AI first. It also delays Alpha and tech trading to catch up on those worker techs.

An alternative may be an early Oracle for CoL and then using the resultant Great Prophet to help research for CS. The prophet can be speeded up by pop-rushing a temple (by now the population of Delhi will prob be approaching the happiness ceiling anyway) and using temple specialists. To use the GP for CS you have to avoid researching Masonry though until after your Great Prophet has researched CS, as otherwise he will research Monotheism and Theology

 

[Samson]

From the GOTM 2 writups, it seems that the GP for reaserch is a very powerfull strategy. But does anyone know how to reliably determine what tech a GP will reaserch? From the spreadsheet here and the description here I had a try but I am not certain.

Specifically do you take the highest of the specialist column and the lowest in the cost column that you could reaserch but have not? This sort of seems to agree with the results bradleyfeanor talks about, as long as you have reaserched a few extra techs.

Eg. for the civil service slingshot (sounds very powerfull to me) apart from the techs bradleyfeanor says you need, you would also need to have reaserched Priesthood.

 

[Ribannah]

I'm hoping the hill doesn't contain Iron that just the plains have it. Everything is hammer short as it is.

Ok, I went back to ronalds game to develop a CS slingshot gameplan.

Obviously Fishing -> SomeTheism -> Priest -> Write -> CoL

But what do you do with production? Warrior Warrior Boat Boat then what?

I think it makes some sense to worker/settler pump whilst this is going on. I would hold off on settling the settler until the Oracle is done because it will force research % down more. Is this the right play or do you slow down oracle slingshot for the purpose of growing the second city faster.

Is there enough time for a library to make a difference for anyone? I doubt it. Probably better to spend the bread on settlers? Anyone?

I'd aim to get Alphabet with the Oracle. On this type of map, I may also build two more workboats to do my exploration, and ignore the land.

 

[Big Pig]

From the GOTM 2 writups, it seems that the GP for reaserch is a very powerfull strategy. But does anyone know how to reliably determine what tech a GP will reaserch? From the spreadsheet here and the description here I had a try but I am not certain.

Specifically do you take the highest of the specialist column and the lowest in the cost column that you could reaserch but have not? This sort of seems to agree with the results bradleyfeanor talks about, as long as you have reaserched a few extra techs.

Eg. for the civil service slingshot (sounds very powerfull to me) apart from the techs bradleyfeanor says you need, you would also need to have reaserched Priesthood.

I think that is correct. There is another thread on this subject in the Strategy Articles: here

 

[totororo]

That's true, and i do think that it will be my strategy. Then I am somehow considering building my new cities in within the borders of Dehli (who hopefully will get stonehenge, the oracle, and temples from hindu and confu beforehand).

However, this strat is very unsafe, and I do need some iron or copper within the city radius to secure dehli(just like in roland's save).

I do need some time to practise...

 

[kingjoshi]

So let's say you can get Hinduism, Judaism, Confucianism and Christianity. Get Stonehenge, Oracle AND Pyramids. But you'll only have one city. Is it worth it?

With Monarchy and slavery you can rush some units. With Representation and Caste Systems, you can increase research. Do you think you can catch up even if you don't expand?

Obviously people play OCC, so it's possible. But for "normal" players on Emporer?

It's bad enough if you succeed and only have one city with little room to expand, but if you fail? ouch...

So, the route I take in the test games. Haven't played the games out to completion.

Use warrior to scout only near-by surrounding area and hope you get an important tech or gold to fuel research but return to protect city from barbs. One warrior can be enough with high culture. I've killed several warriors and few archers turn after turn with just one warrior. Some games, no barbs. Was using Downy and Roland's test maps.

Research:
-Fishing
-Polytheism
-Masonry
-Monotheism
-Priesthood
-Writing
-Bronze Working

Production:
-Start Stonehenge
-Change to Work Boat at Fishing
-Build second Work Boat
-Return to Stonehenge
-Eventually get to fast worker when population is 5 (assuming you got at least Hinduism or Judaism)
-You can get stonehenge without chopping
-Hopefully you can get to Oracle before others since you won't have chopping. I was able to and got Writing one turn before it completed!
-Then start Pyramids and hope you get BW quickly enough to chop.

Great people:
-Use Great Prophet to get Theology and Christianity

Sometimes, you can get them all. Somestimes, only few. So, what next?

 

[culdeus]

I think the standard CS slingshot with the Oracle might be a bit of a gamble at this level - delaying Oracle completion until you have CoL may give the Oracle (+probably CoL) to an AI first. It also delays Alpha and tech trading to catch up on those worker techs.

An alternative may be an early Oracle for CoL and then using the resultant Great Prophet to help research for CS. The prophet can be speeded up by pop-rushing a temple (by now the population of Delhi will prob be approaching the happiness ceiling anyway) and using temple specialists. To use the GP for CS you have to avoid researching Masonry though until after your Great Prophet has researched CS, as otherwise he will research Monotheism and Theology

Turn 68 (1280 BC)
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Confucianism founded in Bombay
Confucianism has spread: Bombay
Delhi finishes: The Oracle
Bombay finishes: Warrior

Turn 69 (1240 BC)
Research begun: Civil Service
Tech learned: Civil Service
Delhi begins: Library
Bombay begins: Settler
Research begun: Alphabet


I'm sure I could do it earlier had I not wasted some turns and research % on a second city. Rolling as a OCC thru Oracle should get there at least 5-10 turns earlier if not more. I'll try that later today. CS slingshot is very doable. I also got hindu first with this which helped some.

 

[culdeus]

I'd aim to get Alphabet with the Oracle. On this type of map, I may also build two more workboats to do my exploration, and ignore the land.

Why? What would I have to trade that was worth anything? Just alphabet which doesn't help me at all.

 

[Ribannah]

Some of the AI's may still lack Writing at that time. But for Alphabet alone, you can get that dozen of useful techs that you skipped, potentially including Bronze Working and Iron Working, and give your Workers something to do.

 

[culdeus]

I try to avoid trading alpha at all costs. Of course, this may be the only choice at this level, but I'd prefer to try trading CoL and see how that goes. In the first game I tried I made it to writing fairly early and did alpha and was only able to trade writing to 2 of 6 civs.

I think I know now that I made a mistake in GOTM3 not doing the slingshot even though oracle was more expensive. I think if you have either A) marble B) industrious you really need to go for the slingshot one way or the other.

If I miss it I'll just restart and not submit the game. I haven't turned one in yet and I don't see that changing this time around.

 

[Jeff1787]

As I said in an earlier post, getting polytheism first only seems possible if you pop a hut for some money. Then you can put research back to 100%.

In several tries, the AI beat me to polytheism by one or two turns if I wasn't researching at 100%.

I am starting to think that the early religion strategy may not be the way to go. It may boil down to what those little huts have to offer. That seems risky to me. Any thoughts?

 

[solvero]

I don't know how to submit, but I'll say what I think anyway:
Going for domination is almost impossible in an Ice-age map, Because you cannot settle on ice but it still counts as land.
Conquest will also be difficult, since there are continents so you'll only be able to fight civs from different continents late in the game.
Space race is possible but I think the computer will beat you to that one.
The only options left are diplomatic and cultural. Ghandi's traits are great for cultural (spiritual flexiability to avoid any war, industrious for wonders) and mysticism with the fast workers are perfect for a diplomatic victory using religion.
Personally, since I suck in cultural victories, I would have go to diplomatic with first researching fishing while building a warrior or two until the city is size 2, and then work the water tile and go for Polytheism. Afterwards I'll go for masonry while building a work boat and then Monotheism while building my settler. I believe I'll build it really close without looking for any special resouce, only if I see stone or marble. Maybe then I'll go for alphabet, fill in my worker techs and go for code of laws. I'll keep close borders because I don't want any religions to spread. Meanwhile ofcourse I'll spam my continent with missionaries, from about optics I'll beeline to mass media, buy/use a great engineer to build the UN and win.
But it will be nice if you'll tell me how to submit.

 

[culdeus]

As I said in an earlier post, getting polytheism first only seems possible if you pop a hut for some money. Then you can put research back to 100%.

In several tries, the AI beat me to polytheism by one or two turns if I wasn't researching at 100%.

I am starting to think that the early religion strategy may not be the way to go. It may boil down to what those little huts have to offer. That seems risky to me. Any thoughts?

I am gonna try to do ronald's game without any tech hut hits to see the worst case Civil Service timeline on a OCC. The religion thing is just one which only equals 2 comm/turn maybe a 4-6 turn delay. I dunno I'm bad at math. I'll post the log in stories later tonight maybe.

 

[karmina]

I am gonna try to do ronald's game without any tech hut hits to see the worst case Civil Service timeline on a OCC. The religion thing is just one which only equals 2 comm/turn maybe a 4-6 turn delay. I dunno I'm bad at math. I'll post the log in stories later tonight maybe.

I hope later tonight we will all be playing the actual savegame - hey, by now it's March 1st in Moscow already ...can't wait...sick of testgames...must...play...

(But it's true, getting money from huts or a possible adventurer bonus is mandatory for fishing and an early religion. When beelining to CoL, this of course isn't so important)

 

[Memphus]

Going for domination is almost impossible in an Ice-age map, Because you cannot settle on ice but it still counts as land.

Some of us crazy die hard dominators will try for it I am sure

[sarcasm]Actually wait...no don't try this victory condition it is impossible [/sarcasm]
(read: if no one else tries this I can gaurantee myself the fastest domination )

 

[totororo]

Turn 68 (1280 BC)
Tech learned: Code of Laws
Confucianism founded in Bombay
Confucianism has spread: Bombay
Delhi finishes: The Oracle
Bombay finishes: Warrior

Turn 69 (1240 BC)
Research begun: Civil Service
Tech learned: Civil Service
Delhi begins: Library
Bombay begins: Settler
Research begun: Alphabet


I'm sure I could do it earlier had I not wasted some turns and research % on a second city. Rolling as a OCC thru Oracle should get there at least 5-10 turns earlier if not more. I'll try that later today. CS slingshot is very doable. I also got hindu first with this which helped some.

Did you achieved this on Roland's map? If yes, i need to work on it. I am able to achieve the Civil service combo, but without building any other city. When did you build your settler?

 

[Thrallia]

well, memphus, you don't have anything to worry about from me...fastest domination I've gotten was around 1700AD on prince.