GOTM 110 Spoiler

[CharlieChuck]

Is anyone up for making a spreadsheet so we can compare various stats at various years? I'd offer myself but I'm busy until about halfway through next month.

Here's my 20-500ad

20 Zulus nearly finish lighthouse, Tenoch builds Michaels, Texcoco dye Slim buttes 224, rush about 60-70 shields
40 Bapedi LH,Persians Zulus and russ change to Oracle,Bridge-> Univ, giv sioux bridge building
60 rb 20 shields
80 give russians republic & withdraw troops
100 give vikings 3 techs & swap maps, rB harbour Tlat 86g, disband 1 crusader
120 Teayo 60,44 tax 1-7-2 techs 6 turns
140 Zulus give 2 techs, share maps,
160
180 vikings abandon sun tzu, give maths & lit to vikings, tax 0-8-2, sell texacoco temple, rush 15 shields
200 Univ->TOG, Cempoala 40,60, texcoco cloth litle bighorn(UD) 104g, Tenoch wool Uppsala (ud)148g, rush about 90 shields tax 0-6-4
220 vikings start sun tzu, Tzintzun beads cedar creek 280g, rush 30 shields, tlat disband warrior & rush aqua 150g, tax 1-5-4
240 TOG->Medicene tax 1-3-6
260 Tlacoplan Dye Viborg 208g, rush 80shields, tax 0-4-6
280 start Copern. chalco 43,63 (for trireme), deliver 5 vans to coper,
300 persians start sun tzu, last van for Coper, approach Sioux give Astro Techs down to 8 turns from 9
320 Tlatelolco Copernicus (68 beakers at 40% science) discov now 6 turns, Xoch salt Uppsala 224g, rush 40 shields settler
340 Carthags and Russians at War, Medicine->Engineering, tlacoplan silk Uppsala 360g,Calix Wool Litle bighorn (ud)108, rush univ 312g, tax 0-8-2 2 turns SSC 138beakers, rush 70 shields
360 Engin-> Invention, 184 beakers, tlaxcala wine cedars creek (ud) 136g, rush 15 shields, rush 25sh trireme,
380 mined 43,43 to pheasant
400 Invention->Demo, tax1-7-2,
420 texcoc wine viborg 105g, rush 40sh,
440 Persians chivalry, find vladivostock russians declare war. Demo next turn on oedo year, tax 0-7-3, rush 20 shields
460 Vladivos kills crusader, Demo->Navig, revolution 1-3-6, chose demo, talmanalco 37,55
480 tax 0-4-6
500 give vikings Invention & Uni, swap maps, Tlatelolco aarhus beads (ud)238g, rush 90sh
want magellans, leos, isaacs, js bach & shakespeares in that order
@500
3.2m pop, 17 cities, Tlat (ssc) size 12 with 70 arrows, Govt Demo, 257 gold
Cost per turn 11g, 33 Techs researching Navig,
8 settlers, 1 warrior, 2 phalanx, 2 legion, 1 ellie, 1 crus, 7 trireme, 14 vans
Peace with all except Russia, War

Took me 8 turns to get Univ, and 6 to get Medicene but I was growing the civ during that time & preparing SSC. I was on about a tech every other turn after 500ad (had 47 at 1000ad) with a tech a turn after that.

I still keep thinking about those 4 elephants and the boat that went the long way, what effect would it have had? I should have expanded quicker earlier too.

 

[CharlieChuck]

520-1000ad


520 Russians nearly finished oracle, zulus sneak attack and kill 2 empty triremes, get peace with russians give 4 techs swap maps, tax 1-3-6, give sioux 4 techs
540 russians start leos, Navigation->Sanitation, Xoch trondheim dye 276g, rush tenoch aqua 80g, Texoco beads aarhus (ud)72g, rush 1 caraval, rush 90 sh
65,49 59,55 more specials?
560 Tlatelolco wine trondhiem 594g, 6vans to Magellans, rush 170 shields,
580 Sanitation->chemistry, last 2 vans for magellans, tlacoplan coal trondhiem 430g, rush 190shields
600 Russians steal banking, Tenoch Magellans, 4 vans to Leos, tax 0-4-6
Russians getting near, keep them happy for now...
620 Chem->Physics, Ixtapaluaca 59,55 , 2 vans for leos, tax 1-3-6, give russians 3 techs, give sioux 3 techs
640 Heoxalta 33,57, Give Zulus 3 techs, swap maps, Tula hides Cedars creek 148g, Tzintun dye slim butes (ud)94g, Teoti wool Slim Buttes (ud)88g, Prb crusader near Tula, tax 0-4-6, rush 80 sh
660 1 van to tenoch 6 sh left, tepexpan,
680 Sioux change from Gl to leos, Physics->Gunpowder, Tenoch Leos, Sioux swithc to King R russians abandon, Tenoch gold trond (ud)202g, Teoti wine Kaupang 335g, rush 120sh, rush 1dip
700 Russians republic, partrush Tlat sewer 184g
720 Gunp->magnetism, tamuin copper Trondheim 238g, Malinalco dye Trondheim(ud)236g, rush 120 sh
740 Atxcapotz salt Kaupang (ud)160g, Tepetlaox 68,44 , rush 80sh
760 Trondh Sun Tzu, Magnetism-> Explosives, Tamuin Gems Kaupang 318g, Atzcap Wine Hladir 435g, 150 sh to Isaacs, rush 140 sh 1 aqua,
780 Explosives->Feud, 4 vans to Isaacs, Vladivostosvk subverted 236g, hut=100g, vikings swap navig for chiv, persians swap Gunpodwer for Fuedalism, sell tula templ 40g, tax 0-4-6, give sioux 3 techs
800 russians sneak attack, start Leadership, Cempoala salt Hladir 184g, tax 1-3-6 rush 1 ship 1 dip 2 crusads,
820 Persepolis builds GW, Sioux KRC, last van to SSC, Chiconaulto, tax 1-5-4,
840 Tlat Sir Isaacs, Leadership->Econ, SSC 252 beakers at 50%, zitlat 73,33
860 Calix Dye zZmbab 356g, Xoch cloth(ud) Zimb , Yakutz revolted 201g got 21g back, Coyotopec 51,63 tax 0-4-6, rush 1 aqua 3 vans 2 dragoons, Russians force cease fire
880 Econ-> Steam Engine, tax 1-3-6
900 Wine Teoay Antioch 285g, rush 1 harbour 1 aqua, Malinalco Tarsus hides (ud) 146g, rush 2 vans
920 Carthags liberate Malaca, Tamuin dye ulundi 244g. Tequix 32,52 rush 3 vans 1 aqua, tax 2-2-6
940 Steam-> Railroad, tenoch dye bactra 212g, tlaxcala spice Gordium (ud) 124g, rush 1 aqua rush 3 vans tax 1-3-6
960 Cempola Dye Trond (ud) 142g, Tzinzun wine Hladir (ud) 160g, give sioux 5 techs, rush 3 vans tax 0-6-4
980 Railroad->Indust, tlatelolco Dye Arbela 395g, Malinalco wine persop (ud) 111g, rush 4 vans
1000 Indus-> Atom, tlacoplan wine aarhus 187g, atzcap spice trond (ud) 135, tlalaman (ud) Aaruhus 47g, 6 vans to tlat for Shakespeares, rush 2 engineers 1 aqua 1 van, tax 1-5-4

@1000 7.6m 27 Cities, Tlat SSC size 15 - 89 arrows, 264 beakers @ 50% science, govt Demo 17g
Cost per turn 28, 47 techs researching Atom theory
7 Wonders, Colossus,Marcos, Michaels, Copernis, Magellans, Leos & Isaacs
6 engineers, 7 muskets, 5 dragoons, 11 transport, 1 dip & 10 vans
Peace with all except Russia, cease fire

 

[Peaster]

Wow... some great, detailed logs already in this GOTM ! I guess I am inspired to compile a nice one myself now, from my typically meandering notes. I'm done playing, but have to catch up on RL for a while.

CC's spreadsheet idea sounds good, but I wouldn't know how to start, and I also don't have much RL time at the moment. I'm thinking that we can learn a lot from this GOTM, and most of what we can learn fits into one of these categories:

a) What is the best overall game plan ? [for example, to depend on an SSC, or lots of ICS cities, or on van bonuses, or etc]

b) What are the "mechanics" of EL and trade ? I don't mean game mechanics, like how to calculate bonuses. I mean what results can you expect from basic decisions like building more cities, or more vans, or certain WoWs, or switching govts, etc.

I expect we can decide on a) mainly by looking at the best games, at least if those results vary by more than 20 turns or so from the rest. If some games are affected by good/bad luck, or by dumb errors [mine was] we can try to factor that stuff in. Anyway, I think we can look at the best games, and try to imagine them as they should have been, and we can focus mainly on situations and decisions arising in those games. We may get pretty good answer to a) this way, which can be tested further, if people want, in other gotms.

I guess b) is very open-ended, and data from everybody's games will help with that. We can focus on any questions we want, such as the ones I asked before the game [see other thread] or new ones.

For example, I asked about giving techs to the key civ. Now, I see that this is usually a good idea, because it reduces the number of beakers you need to gather in the game. There are some exceptional cases where it's slightly bad [where most beakers come from big bonuses, limited by the science cap, and where you also need gold for re-investment]. Anyway, I'm just saying some of the questions have fairly clear answers for me now, especially for games played "my way" with big trade.

I'm hoping players with other game plans can help evaluate factors which weren't very important to me, such as libraries and ongoing trade routes. Maybe CC's spreadsheet idea is best for that ... anyway, I think we come up with pretty good answers to almost any basic question if we try. If you are interested in libraries, for example, you could estimate how many extra beakers a typical library got you (the answer may depend on when it was built, size of the city, etc) and we'll compare that with the cost.

 

[Peaster]

I found a little spare time to ponder "what are we going to learn from this, and how?" and decided to focus on the list of questions I asked before the game. Of course, new questions are welcome. Here are some temporary, first-draft, partial answers. Or, call them opinions:

1) ICS/Big Trade vs ELG [vs other]? This is a "type a" question [see above] which we can probably answer based on the best games. Several games are unfinished, but for now I'm guessing that ICS/Big Trade is winning. So, if I have to assume a style of play below, I'll assume Big Trade for now.

This topic probably includes the later question "How should you get your advances - mainly from the AI ? your cities ? vans ?" [Again, I expect the answer will be "from vans" but we should wait for the games to finish].

2) Should you give techs to your key civ ? Now, I think the answer is "almost always yes" and the only exceptions are in certain "very-big" trade games, or maybe when the key civ poses some real military threat.

3) Should you delay Invention / Navn ? I think that for ELG/SSC players, the answer is "no" [because you don't care much about the trade penalty, and may benefit from early Leo's, caravels, etc]. For Big Trade, I am still unsure how to approach this decision, but will try to provide data in my log and keep looking for an answer.

4) Should you usually aim for war or peace with the AI ? [and more generally, how do you deal with the AI?] I made a mistake of trusting a peace agreement with the Russians, and was punished by a big sneak attack in the fairly early game. So, I should've either busted them up a little, while in Monarchy, or built a better defense in Republic [my dovish Senate got in the way of fixing the Russian problem]. After about 200AD, my tech advantage [I didn't give or trade techs much] was enough to dominate the AI with just a few Cavalry units, so war wasn't really an issue after that.

Can other players summarize their attitude towards the AI, and how well it usually works out in their EL games ?

5a) Do you aim more for big bonuses or for ongoing routes ?
5b) When do you build settlers vs vans vs WoWs, etc ? [roughly]

I'm grouping these together now into "How should you spend your gold?" I feel that Civ2 is about growth, and that any decision to spend gold can be evaluated as good or bad based on how it helps with that. Grigor and others have convinced me there may be exceptions [lean EC, playing for Blue, OCC, etc] but so far this GOTM has convinced me that EL is no exception. So, I think we need to estimate how each option above affects growth.

5c) Big Bonuses ? By this, I mean bonuses over about 200g [plus an equal number of beakers]. These are VERY high growth deals. My estimates: Cost of a van = 125g. Benefits = 200g + 200b + ongoing routes worth 60g. This is a huge return of 460/125 = almost 4 to 1. I have ignored travel time [interest] and the hidden costs of blocking a supply, building cities, etc ... but even so, this deal is huge.

5d) Ongoing routes ? By this, I mean delivering a van with a small initial bonus [let's say 50g], mainly to create an ongoing route that adds, for example, +3 arrows per turn to the home city. Now maybe someone who favors these can estimate the value better than me. My rough estimate is similar to 5c) above, but the benefits are 50+50+60 = 160 over a cost of 125. So, it is not a losing deal, but to me it seems not so good as many alternatives.

Note: People have pointed to celebrations as a reason to create these. IMO I have included that benefit already, as part of the "+3 arrows per turn". I do not feel 100% confident of this though.

5e) Settlers [or Engineers] ? I've posted before that Settlers provide a 5% growth rate [assumes Monarchy/etc but I think this is fairly accurate, in general]. If interest is factored in to allow a comparison with 5d), I'm guessing the benefit/cost ratio is about 250 over 175 [very rough ... I haven't worked hard on this yet]. So, better than 5d, but worse than 5c.

IMO an Engineer is worth almost 2 Settlers, if you have real work for it to do [such as building roads under city workers, to increase arrows]. So, an Engineer is a VERY good deal, unless you already have "enough" of them, or if you plan to ICS with them and treat them as settlers.

5f) WoWs ? So much variety ... and most are not easy to evaluate. Suggestions?

For now, IMO most of the WoWs that we all love [HG, MPE, Pyr, Cope's, Leo's, Mike's .... ] are all worthy investments, but under 5c) [roughly like 5e) I think] . In other words, I will build these if/when I have gold and 5c) is not an option, OR when there is some urgent need for the WoW.

In my game, I probably should've built more WoWs sooner [Cope's, AS, JSB ...] for a smoother game. But I am not sure I lost much time by omitting or delaying them.

5g) Other [libraries? harbors ? units to disband in other cities ?] In my game, libraries would've been useless, since I had science set near 0 most of the time. I mistakenly built about 30 near the end, because I was mis-informed [I think] about the Flight trade penalty. They should be OK in very big cities [already making approx 30 to 40 beakers per turn] and/or with other game plans. I guess this depends partly on whether you prefer gold or beakers. I treat them as approx equal, but prefer gold.

I wanted big cities for big trade bonuses [and more taxes/etc], so I built about 40 harbors and 30 aqueducts. Haven't analyzed this decision yet, it may be wrong. Often my cities got blocked around size 4, and maybe they didn't make many vans after that, will have to check this. If not, then the improvements didn't serve my purpose.

I built warriors / diplomats / etc, to disband into my STC, so that I could RB a Hides van [or whatever] every turn. IIRC this is better than rushing from 0.

I usually try to spend almost all my gold every turn. It's probably OK to keep a little on reserve [maybe 100 to 200g, after about 500BC ?] for emergencies, but reserves don't help you grow, so IMO they should be minimized. Also, with a big trade game, you can usually expect lots of deliveries each turn, which can work as a reserve.

6) How do you decide when to change govts ? This one is hard to calculate, so maybe we can offer reasons and try to agree.

I switch from Despotism to Monarchy almost as soon as possible [I raise taxes from the start, for growth, which delays science a little, but then I try to get Monarchy before my 5th city, roughly].

I switch from Monarchy to Republic when I can see the benefits ... when I can cele-grow about five cities from size 3 to size 6 or so. This is approx the same time I am ready to switch focus from ICS growth to big trade growth (see 5 above). I don't think the other benefits of Republic [more city arrows, less waste] are super-important. I am not sure all this is correct.

I stayed with Republic until the end to avoid the [minor] costs of a switch to Demo or Fundy. By 200AD, I expected an adv per turn and didn't see any need for Demo. Probably a switch to Demo some time in 200BC to 200AD would've been wiser, for less corruption, bigger bonuses, faster growth. It would not have made a big difference, but I might have gotten 2 adv per turn a few times, and maybe saved 1 turn of building parts.

7) What are the best WoWs, and when to build them ? It seems we mostly agree on this already, and I don't have much to add, for now.

If I had not been able to produce Hides vans, I might not have built an STC at all [the one I built probably wasn't a full STC] and maybe omitted all the SSC/STC WoWs ... Colossus, Shake's, INC. I guess I would have relied on even more on ICS, to provide lots of unblocked supply in smaller cities instead.

Log coming soon, I hope. I finished between 900AD and 1200AD...

 

[Magic_gorter]

Right now I don't have the time to answer all the points you've mentioned. But as soon as I finished my game I will look at them again and answer them.

My midgame was pretty bad. Right now I have the feeling I made some wrong decissions but will find out as soon as I finish my game. After 1 ad I kept my science slider high and did not RB vans because I had not enough money. All vans were needed for wonder building (Michelangelo's, Leo, Isaac, Bach) and my SSC supply was long blocked. I guess it was better to have a period with taxes high and RB vans for wonder building. But as said I have to test it after finishing this game.

I also should have made a shipchain to the Vikings earlier. I delivered to long to the Indians.

I normally won't destroy an ai civ early in the game when playing EL. But the Russians were to aggresive and declared war pretty soon. So I decided to destroy them and I'm glad I did.

Right now I'm a few turns before 1000 AD and only need 14 techs (just got my first 2 techs a turn) and I finally can use my vans for deliveries.

 

[Peaster]

Right now I don't have the time to answer all the points you've mentioned. But as soon as I finished my game I will look at them again and answer them

... and my SSC supply was long blocked.

No rush. I'm just "thinking out loud" trying to find the right approach. Did you try "Wonder Bread" to unblock supply ? Just curious .... it doesn't work for me ... but maybe I'm doing something wrong.


One more idea, especially for the big trade plan: We all know that our Civ needs a steady flow of food, gold, beakers and luxury to thrive. These are the basics. We might add WoWs and new cities to that list, depending on the player's goals.

In this game, I noticed that "unblocked supply" was also a big factor, especially in the late game, after Hides. It deserves attention and manipulation. I felt that I had enough of almost everything, but it was hard to keep my system going, even with 50 cities making vans. I needed about 10 good demanded vans per turn, and had to ICS myself up to about 100 cities eventually, for fresh supply options. I think part of the problem was that my bonuses were smaller than expected in this game, so that I needed LOTS of them each turn.

So, big trade strategy should include this factor, with some plan for keeping enough new supply options open. I used Hides as much as possible, and ICSed up to 100. Probably Demo would've helped, by increasing the bonuses per van, so that I could've made less of them. Also, trading with the nearby Sioux was good for quick returns, but trading with the Persians was better for big returns. I'm thinking there is some "ideal distance" for a trading partner, roughly 50 tiles away, but haven't really thought this thru. Finally, if I had ICSed to 100 earlier [or built JSB/etc for better cele-growth] I probably could've gotten larger bonuses.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Yes I tried the wonder bread but the same as you I don't understand that part very well. Looks like I have to read the EL guide again and try to understand more about van deliveries and how to unblock them more easily.

I had planned to deliver some vans with not to high revenue but at the time I could start delivering them I had a railroad and chain to the Vikings. So delivering them to them will give me better money, luxuries and beakers without much trouble. I still haven't reach the Persians. I focused on the Vikings and Zulu right now after focusing first on purple and orange.

 

[CharlieChuck]

I'm coming up for a weeks holiday then a busy week at work, so I won't be able to look at Peasters post either for a few weeks. But, it's safe to say my strategy of few and far apart cities didn't work.

I'm wondering if we were too close to the AI, (the furthest civ wasn't that far away for decent trade bonsues) and having the Russians on the doorstep certainly doesn't help a small civ - too much production as a % of total went on defensive/attacking units for me.

Whatever happens and is discussed, I'm certainly trying an ICS style landing game for my next game (probably July, I'll skip june's game due to time).

@Peaster how far apart were your cities? (did they have the capital & 3 squares, 5 sq etc)

 

[Peaster]

MG: I don't know if I'll play for EL again soon, but if so, I'd like to understand Wonder Bread first. Could make a big difference.

CC: I started with normal ICS growth, so my cities were about 2 steps apart. I tried to expand "in a line" so that they would have a little less overlap than usual. That may have helped them grow a little larger than usual later on, but I think my capitol never got bigger than size 6. I didn't have any cities in my STC's radius, and that city got to approx size 27. I had a few coastal cities that grew to approx size 16.

I'm not sure any of this was very important to my plan, because my cities were usually blocked before growing very big, so I didn't get many super bonuses from them [did get good taxes, of course]. As you mentioned, it seemed the distances to the AI weren't large enough on this map, and the bonuses seemed small. I felt constant pressure to put together a few more deilveries each turn, to keep the advances coming. Otherwise, I might have been able to let the cities grow more before getting blocked.

I'm not complaining about the map, though. It provided a small but steady supply of Hides, longer than expected. Also, the homeland had lots of grass, good for ICS growth. Maybe we should have taken more advantage of that, actually. Also, Persia might've been a good early trade partner for me, at a decent distance, if I hadn't let the Russians get in the way.

 

[Peaster]

Here's my log. I posted a small one already, so there may be some repetition.

-4000: Am playing standard ICS for a while, trying to build a good base. Based on a little black-clicking, I'll aim to grow towards the SW if possible, for some early ports, and access to the South [this was before I learned of the Sioux to the NW, of course]. Taxes at 60, for RBs, for more settlers. Actually, I kept taxes near the max for most of the game.

-3050: Monarchy [both the adv and govt] Taxes to 70.

-2000: 9 cities, 2 settlers, 6 roaded tiles, 6adv, have raised Science to 70 temporarily, trying to reach Trade ASAP. With Trade, I can look for a city that supplies Hides, for a possible SSC/STC. I want a few warriors for huts, a few ports, more ICS [until van trade can take off], probably will need HG soon, probably can get pottery thru MPE].

-1900: 1st hut = chariot.

-1850: 2nd hut = horseback riding. I guess this is average or slightly bad hut luck, so far. The 3rd thru 5th were 2 legions and a barb horse, and the rest were pretty average IIRC.

-1750: Trade. 12 cities, one with Hides.

-1500: MapM, 15 cities, 2 vans, 9 adv

-1400: Meet Russian legion, get Mys for MapM and agree to peace [I have no real army].

-1350: MPE. Get pots, poly [and masonry, I think] and all maps within a few turns. LBH [Sioux] demands Hides, and I have ports on that sea, so they'll be my first trading partners. Probably Zulu's next.

-1000: Monarchy. Still 15 cities [see -1500] with 0S, 10w, 3tri, 4v, 13adv, 1 WoW. I've got 2 loaded boats heading to the Sioux, expecting 3 deliveries soon, hoping for maybe 500g [actually was 80+112+152=344g]. Taxes = 70% = 24g/t. Sci = 30% = 8b/t. No city improvements.

I have temporarily stalled ICS, while building MPE and getting some trade started, which should give even better growth than more settlers. But in hindsight, the first bonuses were disappointing and I could've ICSed a bit longer.

-975 and -950: Russians pay tribute, 75g and 50g. I find that I can't celebrate until HG.

-900: Van 1 = 80 [short dist, no cele] but that's still enough to get Writing.

-825: HG and my cities can celebrate.

-800: Vans 2 and 3 pay 112 and 152, enough for Seafaring [Van 4 was not demanded, probably an accident, and pays only 84g].

-750: Van 5, Hides from Lake Cempoala [size 2 or 3?] pays 184g, gives Lit. I decided about this time that L.C. will be my SSC/STC, at <49,49>. But it is not a priority in my game plan [big trade] and I don't develope it fully. I was probably [can't recall for sure] already disbanding warriors into LC each turn to RB Hides vans, and didn't want to lose a turn there for anything else.

-675: War with Russians. 3 more vans have come in; 112g and 136g and 64g [low because of a demand change at the last minute].

-650: Ru defeats a settler. Van 8 = 184g

-625: Change to Republic. Van 9 = 184 [these larger bonuses are probably all from LC Hides]. Phil->Mono->Constrn.

-600: 3 vans pay 128, 180, 176.

-575: Van 13 = 150, Cons -> math. Lux = 80 temporarily to cele-grow 7 cities from size 3 to 4 [80 sounds too high, but that's what my notes say].

-550: Get math from Sioux. I didn't really plan to get techs from the AI, but did it sometimes. Also, I gave a few techs to the Sioux, probably about 10 total, from about -800 to about 1AD. I hadn't sorted out the best policy on that yet, but in hindsight should've done it more. Now have 5 size 5 cities. Vans 14 and 15 pay 232 and 144.

I plan to build roads near my "big" cities for more arrows, maybe switch back to Monarchy [didn't], build Col before the Viks finish [did]. I raise taxes back to 60, because it seems I need Mike's to continue cele-growth [some rules-of-thumb on this would be very helpful].

-525: Vans 16 and 17 pay 232 and 128. Senate signs cease fire with Ru's.

-500: Astro -> Med. Vans 18 and 19 pay 232 and 128 [probably from the same cities as last turn].

Stats: Republic. 23 cities, Mfg 78, Taxes = 78g/t [with 3 riots], 6S, 10tri, 15v [but 4v intended for Pyr], 23 adv, 2WoWs.

Notice that van trade is making a profit over 100g/t, which has helped me resume ICS, build 3 WoWs soon, and build a decent ship chain. It is also giving me an advance approx every 2 turns. Ideally, my plan is to double that every 15 turns or so, but Civ2 has built-in trade penalties/etc to prevent that. Even so, this system will gradually improve itself until [approx 200AD] it gets an advance every turn, without much help from scientists.

-475: Pyr. Ooops .. no van this turn.

-450: Vans 20,21 pay 232, 168.

-425: Med-> Uni. Vans pay 152,152 and 232.

-400: Vans pay 176, 168

-375: Uni->Bank, Vans = 192, 240. Lost a trireme at sea [careless]

-350: LH. Vs = 240, 184. I am not sure about my choice of WoWs in this phase [maybe Mike's and Col and Cope's were better than Pyr and LH?]. Plan to open trade with Pers + Zulu soon, to double/triple my profits.

-325: Bank -> Econ [I may stop recording all the techs and vans here ... just key ones and totals]. Vs = 230, 184, 160. I guess I'm averaging 2 vans per turn and an advance every 2 turns from that.

-250: "Vikings almost finished Colossus".

-225: Colossus [I was rather lucky to be ready to build it just before the Vikings]. I got Wheel from the Zulu and a 336g van, my first over 300.

-200: LC has grown to size 7. A 360g van [and a 184g]. Taxes at 60, Lux at 40. 30 cities, Mfg 108, 30 adv, 12S, 15v, 14tri [approx 4tri in South now, I think].

-150: Lost a loaded boat because of Russians [I forget exactly how - maybe displaced workers, loss of support?].

-100: Ru's sneak, raze a city, a supported boat, passengers ... Aargh.

-75: A van from LC to Zulus pays 432. My vet trireme loses to a Russian trireme.

-25: Lost another city to Ru's, and supported crusader + legion. They also have made a small invasion northwards, near <51,57>. I keep underestimating them. Peace with the other 5 AI.
Some good vans bring my treasury over 1000g, which I try to spend ASAP, of course.

1AD: 37 cities, 8S, 23tri, 28v, taxes @60% = 161g/t, Sci @0 = 9b [scientists], Lux = 40%. 34adv. I have delivered a total of 61 vans. Have a good ship chain with outposts to the Zulus.

LC (my weak STC) is size 7 and celebrating. It has a market and Col. No library/etc. It is making Hides every turn, and is supporting 6 vans. It has 3 irrigated tiles nearby and about 9 road tiles [and a gems special].

+20: Zulus sneak and destroy a van, Russians a crusader. Invention -> Nav, hurts trade. This was a pretty dismal period, though I think I still got an advance every 2 turns, approx.

+40: Hidden Ru ellie destroys a van. Zulus destroy a van and a settler. I manage to get some Hides vans past the Russians into Persia, to discover that they don't want Hides anymore. They return.

+60: Vikings build GW. "Persians start Cope's". About 3 or 4 vans per turn now, averaging about 150g.

+80: Mikes allows cele's again.

+100: LC is size 10.

+120: "Persians near Cope's". Ouch! How did they do that so fast ??? I think they were building some other WoW and switched. Anyway, I wasn't ready to compete, and had to give up on the idea of an SSC. Dismalness goes on.

+140: Ps build Cope's. I build Leo's [my vans could've built Cope's, but not in any city that could serve as an SSC].

+160: Ru ellie defeats a S in a fortress.

+180: LC is size 13.

+200: RR-> Indn (no more HG). I'm averaging about 5 vans per turn now, and am around 1 adv per turn now (including Darwin).

+240: Darwin. Mag ->Corp ->Explo. 43 adv's [9 adv's in the last 12 turns]. This turn had about 7 vans totalling about 1500g.

+260: Captured Moscow. Russians weakened now. Using TLS = 30,30,40 now [approx]. Sci = 30 is usually enough for 1 adv per turn. IIRC my best city, LC, provides about 15% to 20% of my city beakers, roughly 5% of all my beakers. So, it is not a major factor, except that it is still giving me good bonuses.

+320: Shakes in LC.

+340: 47 adv

+380: Theo -> Conscn. I thought Theo would enhance Mike's, but no. So, this off-path tech was a waste. I probably should've built JSB, but delayed until almost the end of the game. I ccouldn't find any info about JSB and celebration ... wasn't sure it would help [but now I think it does].
Am delivering approx 10 vans per turn now, to keep 1 adv / turn. Profits per van are way down.

+420: LC is size 17, but can't make more Hides. This is very bad news, though I was surprised Hides lasted this long. I do have 47 vans total, to carry me for a while, but need a plan. I decide to expand (ICS) into the SE, past the Russians, to create more cities, more supply. Am starting to worry [too much] about the trade penalty from Flight. I think Elephant has it wrong in his Tips post.

The rest is not very interesting, but I will provide stats, answers, etc about it upon request. I deliver 10 vans per turn, for about 2500g and 2500b total, and get an advance per turn until done, about 900AD. Scared of Flight, I built about 30 libraries/etc, hoping to go on with cities instead of trade, if necessary. These were probably a waste of gold. I did build a dozen cities south of Russia [Bulgaria] plus RRs, which helped with trade. I never switched to Demo, because I saw no reason for it. Probably I could've gotten 2 adv per turn a few times, though, so this was a minor error. I built RRs thru the Russians and Zulus and Persians, for better trade, but mostly ignored the Vikings and Carths. After the Hides era, I traded Dye(etc) with the Sioux from my southern cities. They didn't change demand much in the late game, so they were a reliable trade target. Actually, I usually had some small cities making Hides almost until the end, but they didn't help like the STC Hides vans did.

+440: CfC

+480: Zulus build STWA. Chiv -> Lead [I postponed these techs til after Inv/Nav/etc .. not sure of the best policy on that].

+500AD: Republic. About 55 cities, 20Eng, 30trans, 35freight. 55adv. Curious, that my number of advances matched my number of cities pretty well through the whole game. Taxes @50% = 483g/t cost = 38g/t. Sci @10% = 94b/t, Mfg = 235. Popn 11M.

LC is size 21, and gets 74 arrows, 23 of those from ongoing routes. With a market, etc, it makes 86g in taxes, 15 beakers, and is celebrating at 40% lux. It still has 3 unblocked supplies [Dye, Gold, Gems] so it is still making vans. No university yet.

My typical older city is about size 8, and has 2 or 3 supplies either blocked or not in demand [so a few are still making trade vans, but most are not]. Ongoing routes seem to give about 1/3 of the total arrows for the city. My newer smaller cities often have 3 unblocked supplies, with roughly half of those in demand by some AI city. These new cities are certainly worthwhile, and I wish I'd made more earlier (but am not sure what I'd have given up).


+560: Mags

+580: Persians steal a tech, I declare war, and take Persepolis and Cope's. But I can't quite make the city into an SSC.

+660: Zulus steal ... war ... I take Zimbabwe. I only have about 10 Cavalry for all the AI, but have enough transports and RRs to move them around at will.

+740: INC in LC. This may seem late for INC, but I have had science set pretty low, and LC is not providing a huge number of beakers even with science at 30 or so.

+780: Flight. Not as bad as expected.

+800: SETI. Now, I could almost get 1adv/t from my cities with Science at 80 [or 100 in Demo]. But I kept trade going for the gold.

+860: Carths pay for a sneak, are destroyed.

+880: Ru's destroyed. Space Flight -> Plastics.

+900: Apollo Program [I almost forgot I had to build this]

+940: SuperC -> FusPow.

+980: Launched a 37.16.3 ship. It was supposed to be a 33.16.3, but I miscounted structurals! Also, I thought at first the ship needed 6 modules, and had 5 approx ready before I "woke up". Fortunately, I could still switch 2 to WoWs. I guess I was pretty tired by then.

+982: Adam S

+983: JSB

+984: Zulus down, I get the GL.

+985: End

My overall feeling was that Big Trade worked out pretty well, despite my many mistakes. The map was pretty good for Hides, but it seemed to lack an ideal trading partner, which made my plan difficult. So, I think Big Trade should do better than this on most large maps, but I am not sure how it would do without Hides. I think Big Trade and ICS go together in EL, and I probably should've ICSed a little more consistently.

 

[timtofly]

My typical older city is about size 8, and has 2 or 3 supplies either blocked or not in demand [so a few are still making trade vans, but most are not]. Ongoing routes seem to give about 1/3 of the total arrows for the city. My newer smaller cities often have 3 unblocked supplies, with roughly half of those in demand by some AI city. These new cities are certainly worthwhile, and I wish I'd made more earlier (but am not sure what I'd have given up).

It sounds like you did not give up anything, the Russians took them away.

 

[Peaster]

I meant that I was paying for urgent things like vans and WoWs, and couldn't afford many new settlers/engineers, to make more cities. So, if I wanted more cities, I'd have to make fewer vans or WoWs, or I'd have to take some engineers off of road work. So, I'd have to give up on some other goal.

It pretty much boils down to question 5) above, about the relative value of things.

Probably, I was paying for something I didn't really need (aqueducts?) and could've made a few more setters. Have to check.

 

[Peaster]

Rules of Thumb on Govts in EL

Suppose we are playing for EL in a game similar to GOTM 110. I'm also going to assume our overall game plan is ICS/Big Trade like mine was this time, and that the advances come at a rate similar to mine. I propose these guidelines for changing govts. Please confirm or reject, if possible:

1) Despotism - Monarchy - Republic - Demo. I can't see too many reasonable alternatives, (except maybe staying in Repu til the end, as I did). Inserting Fundy might be OK (Rep-Fun-Demo) for some extra income and a chance to fight, but I don't think that would justify the costs of building SoL (soft Fundy) or researching an off-path tech, etc. Wildpony has suggested skipping Monarchy in another thread, but he needs to test that before I buy it.

2) The costs of switching govts [in a normal oedo turn]= 1 turn loss of about 25% in Mfg, some food prodn (30% ??) and loss of all taxes and beakers from cities. Also, adjusting to the new govt may involve disbanding militia, etc, but I think these costs are negligible. I think the main cost is one turn of taxes, set at about 50%, I guess. If you switch govts, you need to make that up within about 10-15 turns IMO.

EDIT (after timtofly post): You should time the switch to match a turn in which you get a govt tech, and then apparently there is no cost at all, in taxes/shields/etc. I guess this is usually possible to arrange (though I didn't even think of it in this gotm, except for Monarchy). AFAIK this still doesn't make Fundy practical for EL, but it might be worth thinking about.

3) Benefits of switching, and when to do it [in addition to "in an oedo year"]:

D to M: Extra arrows, shields, food ... maybe +25%?? IMO this switch should usually come when you have about 4 or 5 cities. Before that, growth is more urgent, and taxes should be maxed. But if you see that you need Monarchy ASAP (to prevent riots, for example), raise science.

M to R: To cele-grow size 3 cities, for more arrows, better trade bonuses, maybe more shields. IMO this switch makes sense when you have about 5 size 3 cities, and HG [to allow celebration], and have started on trade [eg a few boats and a few vans]. You might delay it if you need to whack a nearby AI, or have too few ports supporting too many boats.

R to D: To reduce corruption, especially in distant colonies, which should increase city arrows and taxes by about 15%, I guess. It will increase trade bonuses, too [by maybe 8%??]. IMO you should switch to Demo ASAP after getting the tech (EDIT: same turn!). But try to time it so that:

* You can fight any needed 1-2 turn wars during the switch.
* Leo's has upgraded your boats to transports (lesser boats cause unhappiness)
* Your science box is about half-full, or less (to minimize damage to your flow of advances).

I am not sure this last advice about Demo is totally consistent. I researched Demo after Magnetism, Industrialization, and Explosives, after I was already getting an advance per turn from vans IIRC. So, a switch would've meant missing one advance [roughly]. Ideally, the switch should occur in one of the last turns that you don't get an advance, and it might be hard to time that. Haven't tried it.

If you can't time it right, I think staying in Repu, getting 1 adv per turn, is OK. But if I had to play this gotm again, I'd probably switch, even at the cost of an advance, and try to make up the loss by getting 2 advances in some later turn(s) and/or by building parts faster at the end. No big deal IMO, but I'm guessing Demo would be a little easier, requiring fewer deliveries per advance, etc.

Please consider this a first draft and feel free to criticize. I don't play past Republic often, and don't have much feel for Demo, SoL, tricks with advances, etc. AFAIK you can't switch govts and get a tech in the same turn, but maybe there are tricks for that ??

BTW: CC asked about govts in some other thread, so this is partly for him. MG asked about happiness, and I've started gathering examples for that. I'm aiming for some simple basic strategy guidelines relating WoWs, the lux setting, number of cities, playing level and govts (nothing about game mechanics). So far, the main issues seem to be "How to deal with unhappiness (riots)" and "How to celebrate most cheaply". One problem is that there are many cases [example: Emperor, Republic, approx 50 cities, with HG only but considering MC...] and I'm not sure yet which can be lumped together. Help with this would be welcomed.

 

[timtofly]

From what I see, it is possible if you change on the turn that you get the govenment tech and it is the oedo year. You get the tech (form of Gov.) when the trigger city trips hopefully at the beginning of your turn. It then processes all of the rest of your cities and then gives you the option to change government. If you say yes and it will be the oedo year coming up, it will give you the government screen and you pick which one you want. There is no loss of production and no time spent in anarchy. All of the production has already been processed. The slider is available immediatly and you can change it to whatever you want to. If your newest city is producing as least one science and you went over the required beakers the turn before; it will be your trigger city and process the new tech first before any of your other cities are processed. You will not get the option to change governments before all of the other cities are processed. They are processed, and then before it releases control back for your turn, it gives you the option. If you have enough beakers from an SSC or the rest of your cities during the processing it is possible to even get the second tech before you would change governments. Since, during early game most players would not be generating enough beakers to get two advances, this would probably only work for Democracy. The strategy would lie in timing the form of government advance to getting it the beginning of the oedo year. This does bring into play the SoL. If you have it you can switch back and forth between goverments without the anarchy limitation. You have to watch though; if you are in Fundy or Communism and switch to Republic or Democracy you have to have enough shields or you may loose troops. Your happiness may cause rioting, if your luxury rate is not at 40 or 50%. Even in Fundy in order to celebrate, you need luxury at 40 or 50 %. If you can get an EL without switching to Democracy fast, then having SoL is a mute point.

I agree with the fact that ICS seems to be better than limiting yourself to 10 or 12 cities.

 

[Peaster]

@timtofly: Thanks for the catch!

This does bring into play the SoL. If you have it you can switch back and forth between goverments without the anarchy limitation.

Is this correct ? I know it is supposed to work this way, but IIRC it hasn't for me - it allows switching in non-oedo years, but there is still a period of anarchy, I think. Maybe wrong - it's been years since I tried.

While on this subject, does anyone advise building SoL in EL games ? At the moment, I can't see how the benefits would be worth 400s, but I probably don't understand this WoW very well yet.

Also, I am assuming that 2 advances per turn is not likely before about 800AD, so playing for such a goal is not likely to help much. Does anyone disagree with this ? [This is where a collection of "Great EL Games" would help].

 

[Magic_gorter]

I don't use SoL much and do not know when the option for government choise comes. I believe it's near the end, but I'm not sure.

I always try to fill the box to the max when I know I can reach two techs a turn. I hoped it worked this GOTM but somehow my cities produce just a bit to little to get those 2 techs. I only got it once (around 800 AD) and hope after Seti Program I can have more.

If I know I can't reach 2 techs a turn I just change the sliders to get more taxes or luxury for celebration.... As long as you can deliver enough vans the next turn....

 

[Peaster]

I don't use SoL much and do not know when the option for government choise comes. I believe it's near the end, but I'm not sure.

I think you are agreeing with me, that there is a period of anarchy between turns, even with SoL (?).

... and hope after Seti Program I can have more.

I noticed the SETI option a bit late, and built it after Flight IIRC [you can see how badly I handle the "details" of EL], but I guess it should be built ASAP, especially if you plan to get many beakers from cities near the end. My whole endgame theory was messed up by the Flight snafu. So for now, I don't know if you even need city beakers. Either way, I don't think this final phase is likely to affect anyone's result by more than about 5 turns.

Rules of Thumb on Happiness

Again, this is a first draft of my ideas, which should get much better if people contribute and criticize. I play mostly EC, in which happiness is less important, so many of you probably understand this stuff better than I do.

1) You can control happiness using luxuries, entertainers, improvements, Wonders, govts and militia. In general, the cheapest solutions are best, and these are usually global solutions, such as Wonders and govts. Among the others, militia are cheaper than entertainers (in monarchy), but you should still keep their number to a minimum. I don't build temples [because WoWs are cheaper], but these might also be cheaper than hiring entertainers for long periods, depending on terrain/etc.

2) Avoiding riots in the early game: At Diety, militia are needed in cities of size two, but in ICS, sizes go up and down pretty often, and sometimes cities can share militia. This is easier with rivers or a few short roads. Also, switch to Monarchy by the time you have about 5 cities (approx the same time for Emp level and below, but then you won't need the early militia). Build HG about the time you have 10 cities at Diety [you can wait til about 12 to 15 at Emperor, and much longer at King/etc or maybe even omit it] and/or when you have about 5 Elvises. AFAIK the Lux bar is not useful in the early game.

3) Avoiding riots later: In EC games, I build Mike's in Monarchy "when needed" - for example, when I am up to about 5 or 10 Elvises (and rising). I often use Elvises in size 3 cities, and militia in size 2-3 (if needed), but rarely more than 1 militia per city. Militia usually means "warrior", the cheapest option. In EL games, and/or after Monarchy, I am usually thinking more about celebrating (see below) than avoiding riots, but if this becomes a problem, I'll still aim for Mike's.

4) Celebrations. IMO this is not a big issue in Monarchy unless you are into trade. For big trade, you are probably better off in Republic anyway. For occasional trade, you might simply raise the Lux bar when you see a van is arriving. In the following, I'll assume you are in Repu/Demo, and are aiming to grow your cities, mainly for more taxes and better van bonuses.

4a) The value of celebration ? I'd be grateful if anyone else can estimate this. My rough estimate is that each time you increase the size of a typical city by 1, you have made a "profit" of about 40g. About half of that is the extra taxes (etc) you'll get, and about half is from an increase in ONE van bonus [just my estimate / assumption - this depends a lot on the city, of course].

Some Apolyton players avoided ICS, partly so that their cities could celebrate more easily. IMO that is a mistake, since WoWs allow celebration even in huge ICS civs, but I haven't analyzed this carefully yet.

4b) Methods and costs of celebration:

* Raising Lux for a few turns is usually very cheap compared to the benefits, so do that for a few turns in a row, periodicly. It is probably not worthwhile if less than 10% of your cities can celebrate and grow [rough guess].

* Also, Mike's is a good deal if you have at least 10 cities that can celebrate and grow by at least 2 or 3 sizes each (and this is very very likely). I am less familiar with JSB, CfC and WS; these seem to be worthwhile, too, but are probably less urgent than Mike's. I guess JSB and CfC are better than WS. (comments, please!)

EDIT: MG says JSB may be better than Mike's for celebration. In some old EL games at Apolyton, I notice that many players build JSB fairly soon after Mike's [even in non-ICS games].

* A Marketplace costs about 160g, and makes sense if you can increase taxes [and you can include Lux, if you want] in that city by 8g [edit: I had "20g" by mistake] per turn. So, the city should be making at least 16 arrows [and/or growing past that]. Or, if the marketplace allows the city to grow by about 4 sizes, which it could not do otherwise, then it makes sense. I think mp's are usually a mistake, but I build them sometimes when I have extra gold, or if the city has many Hides vans on the way.

* Related purchases: An aqueduct makes sense if it allows the city to grow from size 8 to size 11 or 12, but probably not for less. I'm assuming this city has ONE good van bonus on the way (see 4a). This decision is fairly similar to a marketplathemce, sewer system or a harbor. I haven't experimented much with temples, or colliseums, but assume they are less cost-effective.

* Temporary enterainers are certainly OK for help with celebration. I tend to accumulate them in closely-packed ICS cities without enough good tiles for workers, and they may help vs rioting. But they probably don't make sense for the long term, if there are any other decent options, such as WoWs.

* I guess that a switch to Demo from Repu is usually good for celebration [less corruption, fewer reds and blacks ?], but I haven't analyzed this. It might depend on how many units, such as caravels, are out of cities.


NOTE: Most of the above is about celebrating in an ICS/ Big Trade game played for EL, probably in a Repu/Demo govt. It is reasonable to suggest other situations and how to handle them (but I don't plan to do all the work on that!).

 

[Magic_gorter]

I think you are agreeing with me, that there is a period of anarchy between turns, even with SoL (?).

I noticed the SETI option a bit late, and built it after Flight IIRC [you can see how badly I handle the "details" of EL], but I guess it should be built ASAP, especially if you plan to get many beakers from cities near the end. My whole endgame theory was messed up by the Flight snafu. So for now, I don't know if you even need city beakers. Either way, I don't think this final phase is likely to affect anyone's result by more than about 5 turns.

Yes I did mean there is a period of anarchy and I've just tested SoL and yes it gives a period of anarchy. The choise of a new government comes at the end.

Seti is for me also possible after Flight. I had not enough money to RB it at once and decided to build it the next turn. Because it's at the end it does not give much extra. (I guess your 5 turns are correct or very close).

I have to look more at your hapiness part. IIRC JSB is better than Michelangelo's because the effect of JSB is used before counting the luxuries and Michelangelo's after. Perhaps Pr. Garfield can explain it better. He did it in one of the succession game we played this or last year.

 

[Peaster]

I just found some great EL comparison games at Apolyton that we should probably consider. These usually included solo, zenon, slowthinker and others. I think they were played a bit after solo wrote the ELG (2003ish). The best old result I can find on a large map was Game #5 by zenon. It's likely that the #5 map was one of the better ones, but I haven't checked that. Rough comparison of his game with my gotm 110:

Our situations: Zenon played at Diety, no huts, but on a better map than ours [solo chose it for its good SSC site]. Zenon had his EL system down to a science, whereas I had only an untested idea, and very little EL experience.

Zenon's system: He was trading techs with the AI through about 100AD including Nav, Inv, Gunp, Met... (and HBR, Mas at the end, probably to bump the 2/3's tech rule) and I guess he got about 5 extra advances that way. He relied on a full SSC, including Cope's in 240AD. He didn't fight any wars, and only built one defensive unit, AFAIK. He built vans, maybe 20% as many as I did, but he got 2x my bonuses, on average. He built JSB early but neither LH nor Mag's (I assume his map included good sea routes). He switched to Demo around 300AD, IIRC. I think he built about 25 cities, including several superhighways. I built about 100 cities.

Results: He launched in 740AD with a 13 year ship, so 753AD (they played for earliest year, not earliest turn). I launched in 980AD with a 5 year ship, so 985AD. So, I finished 232 years later, but only 4 turns later. I was ahead in advances [due to heavier trade] until about 500AD, but with his full SSC, and better bonuses, he began getting 2 adv per turn then, and soon shot ahead. I was probably able to build a faster ship quickly, but am not sure he even tried for that.

Conclusions: Zenon was certainly a better EL player than me, but IMO ICS/Big Trade is a better plan for EL. Despite the Diety level and no huts, the bigger bonuses on the Apolyton map are an advantage (or maybe this resulted from zenon's superior skill?). Also, I was either a bit stupid or unlucky to get chewed up by the Russians, and to miss out on Cope's.

His game [and others at Apolyton] convinces me that 2 adv per turn is a worthy goal, which probably means building a full SSC by about 400AD to 500AD (his was finished approx 300AD). Also, he handled the AI peacefully and well, which may have saved him 5 turns, or so.

I can't seem to find #5 again, but here's a link to game 4, in which solo and zenon finshed approx 1000AD: http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=84267&page=2

Also, here's one to Game #2. Slowthinker "won" with a launch in approx 650AD, but he reloaded several times. I think he used ICS in his game, but I haven't studied it yet.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?t=80550&page=4

Apparently, landing dates are usually earlier on medium maps than large maps ... does anyone understand why ?

 

[haleewud]

Here is the way researching a goverment works in an Oedo year.

When your trigger city discovers Democracy (or any other government), you are given the choice to revolt. If you revolt, your government immediately goes to anarchy. There will be no further research after the revolt. If your Luxury setting is too low, some (or all) of your cities may fall into civil disorder. Finally, due to the increased corruption of anarchy, your cities might not complete their construction plans. After all you cities are processed, then you can choose the new government.

I think the best way is to make sure you have the beakers to complete the research (from vans) and then turn science completely off, except in the very first city in your list (probably your capital). Then the last city processed will trigger the event and there really will no anarchy.

Prior to playing in GOTM 110. I was playing a game on a random map and ran into that situation. I had 8 cities when I discovered Democracy in AD380. The first city processed did not generate enough beakers, so the second city was the trigger. My T/L/S settings at the time were 10/60/30. I chose the revolt when offerred. Of the remaining 6 cities, 4 of them fell into disorder (even at 60% luxuries). I did reload the game and experiment with the other settings of T/L/S to determine that it was possible to avoid the disorder by delaying the trigger to the last city processed. I have this save file if anyone wants to see it.