GOTM 17 First Spoiler

beeflow · Apr 16, 2007

@Adama, welcome. You may want to try whipping (slavery) for production. You should have plenty of food to regrow quickly.

One thing to consider is that most of your cities will have plenty of food. You might want to at least look at how you can use this to your advantage. (whipping or maybe even drafting

).

@dynamic spirit, please let me know when you find that 6th civ. :lol:

Lanstro · Apr 16, 2007

nice writeup, dynamic spirit!

uberfish · Apr 16, 2007

Playing for quick diplo on challenger.

I really regretted not going for stonehenge in this one since it turned out almost every city spot required an obelisk early. Then somewhere in the early ADs all my obelisks got blown up when I got calendar from a hut. The barbarians of all people got it... In fact they also got hanging gardens. Rome built the Oracle and I think he took metal casting since he poached the Colossus in 50 AD. Caesar also beat me to the great library. Not sure when he got so good at building wonders.

However, I did get the two wonders I considered the strongest in this position, the great lighthouse and pyramids. Instead of running a central GP farm I just spammed out cities with minimal military and ran hybrid econ with cottages topped off with 2 scientists per city.

After exiting ancient age with alphabet (traded for iron working and mathematics as usual), I went for metal casting and compass first, took Currency with the merchant from great lighthouse, and then started down the standard CS/liberalism path towards mass media. No fighting took place at this time.

dates:

2080 Sparta (fish/sheep)
1300 Thermopylae (fish/horse/clam NW)
730 Athens: Great Lighthouse
685 Corinth (gems island)
670 Circumnavigation
460 Delphi (stone on NW island)
415 Pharsalos (copper)
235 Knossos (on the plains hill stone with 2 sugar and pigs on Saladin's island to the west of first stone. I discovered this site a bit late.)
235 Argos (sheep + gold, west of Corinth)
205 Mycenae (fish + wheat, NW island)

AD

50 Athens: Pyramids
230 Herakleia (iron NE)
365 Ephesus (crab/horse near Egypt)
500 Thessalonika (whale/silver/ice) I stopped expanding here as I didn't think any remaining city sites were good enough to really pay off before mass media.

Shono Mercy · Apr 16, 2007

Hi, I joined this forum last month but couldn't finish that gotm coz me, being a peace-lover, doesn't know how to handle wars yet. I tried to win cultural or diplomatic on that map but couldn't pull it off coz my neighbors always declare war on me when I got behind on military. On this gotm, it seemed possible to aim for peaceful victory and so i aimed for a cultural one.

This is my first time to write a spoiler and I got carried away and didn't realize what date am I already, so I'll just write what I remembered I did. At first glance of the map, i moved my scout SW coz I want to utilize it's 2 movement points to explore my region. I saw the sheep above the hill to the South that's why I tried to settle by gaining control both food resources for my capital and plenty of ground for cottages so I settled on the forest S-S-SE from settler's starting position. As I was exploring, I saw the corn to the North and therefore planned to build my next city there.

My Capital's production I think was: fishingboat->worker->settler->worker
My Research I think was: agriculture->mining->BW->wheel->sailing->AH

I built my boat first so i can explore early coz of the map being an archipelago. After exploring my island, I realized that I can reveal the entire island(no fog of war), that's why I didn't build any unit for defense yet. As this was an archipelago map, my focus was to establish my 9 cities first(for cathedrals) as early as possible to avoid war. As I discovered BW, I planned to establish a city on the copper on the SE island as fast as I can so the Phalanxes will be the only defenses that i'll build and bypass archery. I beelined for alphabet to start trading techs and research those that are neglected by other civs.

Log from Replay

Spoiler :

I think this will be the only one's safe to write here on the first spoiler. I've won a cultural victory already and will prepare my final spoiler. Next time, I will take down notes so I can write my spoilers better

1 more question: Can I play again the map and try another victory condition?

Thrallia · Apr 17, 2007

You can play as many times as you like, but can only submit your first attempt.

Congrats on winning, and welcome to the GOTM

The Mad Swede · Apr 17, 2007

I only started this one yesterday. I didn't really have a plan or anything. I knew I wanted to invade someone early on, but that did not happen as they were to far away. I knew I wanted the circumnav bonus and I got that using a work boat and a galley. Unfortunately I was incredibly unlucky with huts, popping many but getting nothing of value.

Anyway, I settled in place after seeing the corn. Since Athens had lots of hills it was going to be military city. It also got a gem later on, making up for the bad hut luck.

Sparta was founded by the sheep and fish. The next city was built by the copper so that I could get axes out quickly. I also put cities by the Iron to the east and by the horses to the west. I am going to make a GP farm out of a three-foodresource city to the west of horse city, but this may have been a mistake since there is no production there. I think I should have built Stonehenge early since I have a lot of trouble reaching resources around my cities.

Im not even sure if I am running CE or SE. Looks like a combination now that I have got the Great Library. I lost both the Lighthouse and the Oracle. I may go for Pyramids since I will soon build a stone city and noone has it at 500AD but that may be too risky?

I will attack Saladin and take his sugar city but after that I need to get my economy going. I'm running at 40% and I am only third in tech, way behind Hatty. I am 3rd in score as well but only a few points behind. Izzy and Julius have both attacked me, but they are not causing any trouble at all.

I think this should be winnable if I can get my economy going but I am not sure which victory condition I shall go for. Possibly Spaceship.

Adama · Apr 17, 2007

@Thrallia & @beeflow, et. al.:

Thanks and I welcome any advice! I am certainly enjoying Alexander's GOTM to rule the world. This has become one of my favorite vices, perhaps right next to those created by his brother, Jimmy the Greek, and that Greek AA founder who started making wine from grapes over 6,500 years ago - before Civilization began ... And of course, I won't mention the world's oldest vice.

I'd certainly get in more playing time if I didn't have to attend those darn CA meetings ... {Civ Anonymous}.

Regards to all.
Admiral Adama
Military leader of the last remnant of the Human Race

Simon_c · Apr 17, 2007

Hi all,
I'm a newbie to the forums and GOTM, so be gentle. :-)

I wasn't going to post my game, thinking I was doing quite badly, but it turns out it's not completely hopeless.

I plaied the Adventure class, as it's the first archipelago map, first epic and only the 2nd monarch class game I've played.

I've plaid civ for a few months now, but have a real problem figuring out strategies and sticking to them, so that's why this game looks like there's no coherent plan. There isn't !!

I also tend to play on instinct, with only minimal city planning. I tend to place cities on the basis of capturing most resources, not planning fully what each city will be for a while. So, I know there are some stupid decisions made.

I started off failing to move the scout to the west then north-west, and instead moved him north-west first. Doh!!

So, I took a gamble, and moved the settler southeast and settled there. On the plus side, this meant there was space for 3 cities on this island. Build order was something like worker, warrior, setler, work boat, work boat, settler. I can't remember exactly, and haven't turned on the detaild logging. (will do that next game).

So, I fairly quickly ended up with 3 cities, a work boat doing good progress getting around the world and no clear plan what to do. I also got a city onto coper island, but missed out getting treasure island to Hatty.

However, my bad planning meant I forgot I needed some culture in the cities to get the resources, so I decided to build Stonehenge in the capitol.

Science I was focusing on alphabet to trade with the AIs as well as basic techs, but I skipped religions completely.

By this time I'd meant all the AIs except JC and had 3 religions in my territory . Hatty asked me to convert to Judaism when I had two cities with it, so I
figured what the hell.

Once I got the GP from Stonehenge, I was figuring out what to do with him. So I figured "why not capture the holy city for Judaism, and setup the shrine". So, since I had the coper and had built up some phalanx I started work on axemen and galleys . By this time I'd got the circumnavigation bonus and figured out it was only Isabella who was stopping me from being last.
I build my army with lots of slavery which wasn't a big problem as I was missing loads of happy resources

So, I landed a fleet off 6 axemen, and two phalanx next to the Jewish holy city, and captured it. Then with more axeman and phanalx I started pillaging all of Hatty's
gold mines and towns. She tried a minor attack back with a swordsman, but failed.
I then moved on one of the other cities on hatty's home island, with an idea of getting a foot hold of 3 cities to be able to push back the culture. So far I've got Memphis and
Thebes but I really want Alexandria too.

I sent a small raiding party trying to get back treasure island, but failed to send enough troops, to retreated to fight another day.

Right now, I've got the problem of having enough troops to hold the taken cities, but not enough to take any more. My is suffering as I've never got a good economy.
(I didn't start building the colossus until too late). At one point while preparing for war I was down to 0%, now I'm back up to 50% or so (due to the war booty paying for
everything right now)

Scores at 455AD are.
JC 576
cyrus 541
saladin 486
Hatty 435
Alex 395
Izzy 363

I've got 7 cities, which is two many. 3 on the home island, 1 on the pig/iron island, 1 on the copper/sheep island, and 2 of hatties.

Two many, but I need at least two more to try to stabalise my situation.

So, I've got a lot of work to do to pull this one out of the fire.

Thrallia · Apr 17, 2007

Welcome to the GOTM!

First, I'd recommend researching currency as soon as possible, that should give you a nice boost to your economy, I'd also recommend trying to push onward with the war against Hatty, because without removing that cultural presence, the cities you have will not be worthwhile.

Thalatta · Apr 17, 2007

After squeezing out a finish and submitting at the last moment on WOTM 7, this has been a nice change of pace. I actually started this game before WOTM 7, so I took the adventurer save because I could again, but I think I shouldn't have.

The extra work boat was fun, but I don't think I'm doing myself any favors taking bonuses at a difficulty level I'm comfortable with.

Anyhow, I started by sending the scout W, NW and sure enough, there was the corn. Since there was that little blue circle up north I figured there must be something else good up there so I moved the settler south. I saw the sheep and then the forested grassland hill so I actually settled three tiles south of the starting position, deciding that I would settle my second city to get the fish, corn and four hills, especially since I would be able to work all but the fish without culture since my capital's borders would expand into the last two hills. I didn't think this out incredibly thoroughly - I play by instinct a good bit, too (and also end up with lots of libraries :lol:

), and it seemed to make sense. I also don't think this was necessarily any better than settling in place, I was just pleased with my originality

I founded my second city in 2290 BC, built The Oracle at 820 BC to get Code of Laws and finished The Great Lighthouse at 700 BC. My third city was founded in 670 BC to get clam, gems, gems and gold, leaving room for another city to get the other gold and sheep. My fourth city went on the copper in 460 BC and fifth to the northwest for clam, fish and wheat in 235 BC. I made a slight mistake with my fifth city in that I could have settled one tile north and grabbed four more grassland tiles for an even better whipping city, but oh well. My great prophet built The Kong Miao at 220 BC and I circumnavigated the globe in 145 BC. My sixth city went for the gold and sheep in 95 AD, my seventh for the iron in 230 AD and my eighth north of it for pigs in 245 AD, the same turn that I built The Great Library. I missed out on The Colossus. :blush:

At 350 AD I was four turns off of Civil Service and a little back in score (541 to Cyrus 554 and Julius Caesar 566) with the second GNP (to Hatshepsut). It was a decent start; I was happy with how I'd done, but I actually think I played a lot better later...

beeflow · Apr 18, 2007

@Simon C, regardless of how you feel about your game it's good to post it. It'll help others out as well as help you find ways to play better. I learned a little bit from your post. You were able to take advantage of the aggressive trait early on (I did poorly utilizing the aggressive trait initially). Regarding your economy, did you build the jewish shrine like you were planning? That'll help with your finances along with getting currency which Thrallia pointed out.

Mighty Dwaarf · Apr 18, 2007

As GOTM server down and can't download any more games thought I'd write up my GOTM17.

Initial Moves

Spoiler :

Dawn of the Greeks

Spoiler :

One turn won't matter much??

Spoiler :

Which way now??

Spoiler :

Suppose I'll have write the sequel when the final spoiler come out :rolleyes:

Ramzes XIII · Apr 18, 2007

Actually it's time to discuss last spoilers, 'cause many players have already finished and will be busy with upcoming Mehmed II.
I'm not too expierenced, that was obvious in my continious loss series. But this time I broke that vicious circle :goodjob:

.
My strategy was peaceful from the start, i.e. space race. I didn't want to use Alexander's military trait, but the philosofical one. What a pity was to miss the great gold&gems island to Hatty for a couple turns, and much more regrets i had to have lost iron NE from the capital island to Saladin. The last mistake was corected fast, thanks to Horse Archers and Catapults.
I had many problems with expansion at early stage. Too much city support costs for the archipelago map type at Monarch difficulty.
More info in the last spoiler, I hope

iluxan · Apr 21, 2007

Hi guys,

I have a general question about strategy on this type of map.

Naturally, I find myself settling cities closely located to my original starting location. So nearby islands, plus another one that was free a bit of a ways off. Whereas the AI is settling cities pretty much willy-nilly on almost random locations half-way across the globe - as long as there's at least 1 resource there - no matter how minor like pigs - an AI will have a city there. Even if it's never going to grow beyond the initial 9 squares because of culture pressure. For instance - someone settled a city on the top tip of the NE pig iron island and eventually managed to out-culture my pigs away from me.

Is this a useful strategy? I am generally very late in considering settling basically still-born cities in like tundra and stuff, and so the AI manages to grab any of the halfway-decent locations away from me. (Besides, my economy would take a nose-dive with such cities, wouldn't it?)

How does the AI support such cities, and is it useful for humans?

DynamicSpirit · Apr 21, 2007

Lanstro said:
nice writeup, dynamic spirit!

Thanks!

Beeflow said:
@dynamic spirit, please let me know when you find that 6th civ.

*growl!*

Thorrez · Apr 21, 2007

iluxan said:
.

Is this a useful strategy? I am generally very late in considering settling basically still-born cities in like tundra and stuff, and so the AI manages to grab any of the halfway-decent locations away from me. (Besides, my economy would take a nose-dive with such cities, wouldn't it?)

How does the AI support such cities, and is it useful for humans?

The AI pays way less in maintenance than the human does (the higher the difficulty level to bigger the difference). So no, it is not worth while for a human player, unless you are in a final push for domination of course.

Or am I mistaken?

iluxan · Apr 23, 2007

Thorrez said:
The AI pays way less in maintenance than the human does (the higher the difficulty level to bigger the difference). So no, it is not worth while for a human player, unless you are in a final push for domination of course.

Right, that's what I thought. Thanks for confirming, Thorrez.

So here comes my other really nagging question. I'm a looong-time civ player (since Civ 1 days), and I've played quite my share of Civ 4, so I'd say I'm very familiar with all the new mechanics and am pretty good at the early game (and like it).

However, I guess I wouldn't really consider myself a real hardcore player. I find the mid-late game to be both mind-numbing and excruciatingly long. I can't help but continue micromanaging my empire, but doing anything takes hours and hours of real time. The last GoTM, where some people finished the conquest in like 2-3 hours, took me at least 10, and I barely even finished (and didn't even make it by the deadline for March, because of real-life constraints).

So here's my question - do you have any suggestions for how to finish this game, and especially how to enjoy it? It's about 1750AD, I'm neck-in-neck as far as technologies with 2 other civs (Cyrus and Julius Ceasar), and the rest of the civs HATE me because I was in prolonged wars with all 3 of them (Edited: Removed details to comply with posting requirements - but let's just say they REALLY hate me, even though two of them declared war on me themselves). So I don't really have any diplomatic game, I'm ahead in research, but not very much, my empire's struggling with upkeep (60% science gets me in the -50$/turn range, which I'm working on, but it's not going well).

So what can I look forward to? Conquest looks nigh-impossible (I'm on the same tech level as the other two main guys), Domination obviously unreachable (mostly because of maintenance costs), Diplomacy is right out (I never did get anywhere close to winning by diplomacy - always war too much). So what can I do? Hope that now that I've stopped warring I can pull away in tech somehow? And then what - build spaceship? Wouldn't that take like another 20-30 hours of micro-managing, which is really not rewarding in the end-game any more.

Any other alternatives? How do you guys deal with this? For me, Civ is always about the excitement of the BC era - wonders, tech race, small manageable wars. After that, it's always been down-hill in most games. I really hope someone can share their experience and inspiration here.

Erkon · Apr 23, 2007

iluxan said:
.. I'm a looong-time civ player (since Civ 1 days), and I've played quite my share of Civ 4...
...
I find the mid-late game to be both mind-numbing and excruciatingly long. I can't help but continue micromanaging my empire, but doing anything takes hours and hours of real time.
...
So what can I look forward to? Conquest looks nigh-impossible (I'm on the same tech level as the other two main guys)
...
And then what - build spaceship? Wouldn't that take like another 20-30 hours of micro-managing, which is really not rewarding in the end-game any more.

Any other alternatives? How do you guys deal with this? For me, Civ is always about the excitement of the BC era - wonders, tech race, small manageable wars. After that, it's always been down-hill in most games. I really hope someone can share their experience and inspiration here.

(off spoiler topic warning)

iluxan, I think we have similar background and my main complaint regarding previous incarnations of civ is the mid/end game boredom (moving units & checking cities). I think Civ4 has solved that part of the game, so there is potential to enjoy the game until the end! I also think I play my games slow, but not very slow (any longer). Playing GOTM has tought me that the broader picture is much more important than micro management (should I attack my neighbor, or not? How will that impact my research rate etc).

There are several ways to make the mid-end game more enjoyable. One thing is to get rid of the micro management habit. I had the same "problem". Enabling the alerts is one good way to reduce tedious work. Just check the log each turn for pop increase and boundary expansion.
Then I take notes: which city should I check for whipping? Which city needs a certain improvement? Where should the missionary go? With a simple map and notes, you don't have to rethink your moves/actions.
Then I use the built-in drawing tool. If I need a cottage somewhere, I put a sign there. If I plan an invasion, I draw the arrows. I also use the go-to order quite a lot. And the SHIFT-key to stack movement and tile improvement. You need to find your own tricks. Just take a moment to think through where you spend your time.

You probably play at too low difficulty level if you find the mid/end part boring. The AI accelerates if left alone around Education, so they should in theory pose a threat. Going for space ship / diplomatic / cultural can be boring though. However, it's very much depending on personality. I enjoy the game much more if I'm on the verge of winning.

Without commenting on your specific game, I would say that having tech parity on an island map spells doom for the AI. They can't fight naval wars, they can't plan invasions, and they can't defend against invasions. Just kill them. Kill them all! Shut down research, build units and attack the AI with strongest research, lowest power and lowest manufacturing.

If you want interesting mid/end games, you can try to attack *before* you feel you are ready to attack. Don't wait for a superior force. You can probably shave of a *lot* of turns in a game by being more aggressive.

My most enjoyable games have had intensive action in the modern era, preferably with nukes :lol:

Good luck.

iluxan · Apr 23, 2007

Erkon said:
(off spoiler topic warning)

iluxan, I think we have similar background and my main complaint regarding previous incarnations of civ is the mid/end game boredom (moving units & checking cities). I think Civ4 has solved that part of the game, so there is potential to enjoy the game until the end! I also think I play my games slow, but not very slow (any longer). Playing GOTM has tought me that the broader picture is much more important than micro management (should I attack my neighbor, or not? How will that impact my research rate etc).

There are several ways to make the mid-end game more enjoyable. One thing is to get rid of the micro management habit. I had the same "problem". Enabling the alerts is one good way to reduce tedious work. Just check the log each turn for pop increase and boundary expansion.
Then I take notes: which city should I check for whipping? Which city needs a certain improvement? Where should the missionary go? With a simple map and notes, you don't have to rethink your moves/actions.
Then I use the built-in drawing tool. If I need a cottage somewhere, I put a sign there. If I plan an invasion, I draw the arrows. I also use the go-to order quite a lot. And the SHIFT-key to stack movement and tile improvement. You need to find your own tricks. Just take a moment to think through where you spend your time.

You probably play at too low difficulty level if you find the mid/end part boring. The AI accelerates if left alone around Education, so they should in theory pose a threat. Going for space ship / diplomatic / cultural can be boring though. However, it's very much depending on personality. I enjoy the game much more if I'm on the verge of winning.

Without commenting on your specific game, I would say that having tech parity on an island map spells doom for the AI. They can't fight naval wars, they can't plan invasions, and they can't defend against invasions. Just kill them. Kill them all! Shut down research, build units and attack the AI with strongest research, lowest power and lowest manufacturing.

If you want interesting mid/end games, you can try to attack *before* you feel you are ready to attack. Don't wait for a superior force. You can probably shave of a *lot* of turns in a game by being more aggressive.

My most enjoyable games have had intensive action in the modern era, preferably with nukes Good luck.

(still somewhat off-topic non-spoiler material, hope no-one minds)
Erkon,

I really appreciate your comments and suggestions. This is probably exactly what I was looking for - explanations of how people get through this. Yes, I try to cut down on the micro-management, definitely use goto and some queueing, but it's just very hard to bring myself to start a long war against 3 AIs when I get really burdened down with war weariness as soon as I declare.

Yes, I don't really doubt that I could win eventually (even if I screw up and the AI manages to counter-attack somewhere it won't destroy my empire, which means I could fight back and win eventually), but it's just so painful. Lots of units, have to be really careful with each attack, checking defender units and strength versus attacker's promotions, wait with healing, send in more troops to reinforce, micro-manage unhappiness since it starts to eat at your core cities after a while and even starve them.

That's the thing I am not looking forward to, and going around cleansing the map of the AI's cities would be really long work. I guess I really do need to play for Diplo victory (which I haven't managed yet) because even growing to domination is really hard unless the map is tiny, let alone finding every little ice-bound hole on the corner of the world.

Sorry if I sound negative. I appreciate your comments about reducing micro, and your suggestions for how to do it. I might try that - make decisions up-front, and then just go in and execute them.

Anyway, thanks for your support. I'll see what I can do in this game.

Erkon · Apr 24, 2007

iluxan said:
...
Yes, I don't really doubt that I could win eventually (even if I screw up and the AI manages to counter-attack somewhere it won't destroy my empire, which means I could fight back and win eventually), but it's just so painful. Lots of units, have to be really careful with each attack, checking defender units and strength versus attacker's promotions, wait with healing, send in more troops to reinforce, micro-manage unhappiness since it starts to eat at your core cities after a while and even starve them.

That's the thing I am not looking forward to...

I fully understand your dilemma, and fighting on island-based maps is very tedious, especially in the later part of a game. The question I think you need to ask yourself is how you ended up in this situation? Are you playing the game in a specific way that eventually leads you to a boring experience? Perhaps I'm repeating well known stuff. My games are more fun when I play closer to the limit of my capacity.

When I first started playing GOTM, I read about strategies that I didn't know existed, which were very different from my way of playing. I now try them myself (total focus on research, diplomatic relations or pure agressive kill'em all style). The lessons learned for me is that absolute ruthless play is rewarding in it self. Don't need that worker any longer? Disband it, or use it as bait in a war. Don't know what to build? Build research. Instead of trying to optimize each turn, I try to think 10-50-100 turns ahead.

GOTM 17 First Spoiler

Chieftain

Prince

Immortal

Chieftain

Prodigal Staffer

Chieftain

Warlord

Prince

Prodigal Staffer

Imperialistic

Chieftain

Ginger Beast

Chieftain

Chieftain

Fear him of the pink tie

Warlord

Chieftain

Deity

Chieftain

Deity

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