GOTM 22 First Spoiler

[AlanH]

@DS: I recall in the pregame thread seeing a discussion that archer would not move toward a warrior garrisoned city, but would move toward an empty city. Seems like simple programming to write that. Then, if a warrior shows up just as archer arrives adjacent to city, it can't be fortified (or 5% at most), so the warrior is hard pressed to defend at 3 against the archer. Seems logical to program the AI to press the archer attack, as odds are likely 50% or better if not on hill. It would be interesting to see if a worldbuilder sim shows a fixed behavior of the AI archer in this scenario.

dV

I'm not competing, of course (can't even play the game!), but following a discussion with DynamicSpirit I tried a few starts, with two, one or zero defenders in Rome. Leaving Rome undefended resulted in an attack. One continuous warrior defending was enough to deter the AI. I haven't tried combinations involving defender(s) arriving immediately before the attack, though. Perhaps someone who has finished this game and has some time would like to test this more thoroughly.

I recall that in Civ3, the AI decision to attack a city seems to be made some turns ahead, and then locked in. Then nothing short of a peace treaty can prevent an attack. I realise the AI has been changed significantly for Civ4, but I can believe that some sort of "attack momentum" has to be implemented in order to prevent humans using "puppet strings" manipulation of the AI to confuse it.

Maybe that's what happened here, and the attack decision was made at the time when Rome was undefended, and "attack momentum" caused it to be carried through even when the defender arrived. It would be interesting to know whether *two* warriors returning to Rome just before the attacker arrives would affect the attack decision - clearly a single archer can then no longer expect to take Rome.

 

[redemption438]

@redemption438: Your game is the most successful so far, keep up the good work!

Thanks!

I agree with your sentiments that constant threats make for a more interesting and realistic beginning to the game. But in the midgame this always war is a real drag.

@karmina
Nice game with the CS slingshot. I was wondering if more development would help in the long run. Good luck!

 

[LowtherCastle]

Maybe that's what happened here, and the attack decision was made at the time when Rome was undefended, and "attack momentum" caused it to be carried through even when the defender arrived.

Nope. At least not in my case. My warrior was wandering, but I was keeping it close, having raed something in the pre-game that having the warrior in city center held the AIs off. Well, when the first AI archer appeared my warrior was far enough from city center that I moved it to one tile short of city center, then the AI archer moved one tile into my territory, then I moved into city center and the archer then moved back out and no other AI entered my territory till much later when then came en masse.

 

[AlanH]

If my hypothesis is valid, the AI decision to attack was probably not locked in at the instant the archer stepped into your border, which happened while Rome was undefended. The fact that your warrior was one move from Rome may not have been a factor in the decision.

 

[LowtherCastle]

My point is that the AI "decided" to attack my undefended captial, then "changed his mind" once my capital became defended. So the AI decision was not "locked in."

 

[AlanH]

I understand. How many turns away was the archer when your warrior stepped into the city? Was he fortified before the attack?

 

[LowtherCastle]

What I find pathetic is that the AI units "know" that the city is undefended without being close enough to actually see the city center. (sigh)

 

[LowtherCastle]

I understand. How many turns away was the archer when your warrior stepped into the city? Was he fortified before the attack?

The AI had one more move to make before being able to attack, but it turned back during the IT after I moved in, so my unit hadn't garrisoned yet.

 

[AlanH]

So it sounds like your warrior got home one turn earlier than DynamicSpirit's, and either my imaginary lock doesn't spring until the archer moves to the city gates, or there could be a RNG roll to decide the outcome, or he was capable of deciding that you could be fortified by the time of the attack, changing the battle odds. I discount the third option, as I doubt the AI is capable of that level of forecasting.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Well, someone wil have to look at the SDK but it has to have something to do with the AI's phantom knowledge of the city center status, defended or not. We also don't know what type of archers these are: are they in explore mode or attack mode? That you could test without knowing the SDK.

Maybe it's 1) if defended do not move closer (at this stage of the game), 2) if already next to city, then it's the standard RNG battle decision computation.

 

[Drphil]

Decided to take the adventurer bonuses, and after reading these spoilers I'm glad I did

Warrior stayed in Rome, the archer explored (but not far), and worker started to mine gold after expansion. In the first 10 turns I had met Liz, Monty and Khaaaan, so I knew I had to take expansion slowly and protect the homeland well.
Rome built two more warriors then a settler. By then had Hunt-AH-BW(slavery)-Archery and saw that copper was just to the north of Rome's FC. Whoops. Founded Antium in 2290BC to get the copper and start the axes. By then had DW on Qin, Louie, and Biz.

Ya know, the one disappointment with AW setting is that I don't get to say "your head would look good on a pole" the first time you meet someone.

Anyway.
I had multiple units surrounding Rome and Antium (which both had barracks) by chopping.
The raging barbarians were actually a good thing, IMO. As long as you used defensive terrain properly, you got two promotions right off the bat (one from barracks and one from first barb defeat). I prep'd a settler and protecting units to go for the iron if not within Rome or Antium.

Finally got IW BUT there was no Fe the FC. Ouch. Saw that there was iron in the desert to the west and to the north near Monty. I took a bunch of axes and the settler north to found Cumae as my iron city (had to raze a poorly placed Monty city first, though). This was the last city I founded. Now all three cities started to crank out the beefy Praets. Now I just needed a strategy. Liz was the closest, but seemed to be safely hemmed in (I got 2 more workers from killing Liz's settlers). By now I had DW on all the other civs, but the first target seemed like it should be either Qin, Monty, or Khaaaan.

In 820BC Qin completed the pyramids, so since Qin made his tomb I decided to fill it! I usually tried to attack with 50% more Praets than defenders. Because of the raging barbs almost every Praet was a double city raider. They cut through Qin's cities like a knife through butter. I did need to crank out an occasional axe and archer to better defend the homeland, but mostly cranked out Praets. Bejing fell in 370 BC and I switched to representation. By 250 BC Qin was wiped out. I kept 2 Chinese cities to raise the Praet production rate. By then I had Myst and Metalcasting (for oblisks and forges) and then I set the tech slider to 0. No more knowledge for me. My Praet army lurched Eastward for Monty who was toast by 55 BC. I kept two of Monty's cities - both coastal so I could get ships. - oh ya, I forgot to research sailing. So I temporarily cranked up the tech for 5 turns to get sailing then reduced tech back down to 0. I also became Buddhist from one of Monty's spared cities - but I don't know how to spread the religion! While the army was beating down Monty, everything else that was produced was massed on my western boarder to go after Khaaaan who was wiped out by 245 AD. The Praets almost feel unfair - except that I'm at war with everyone, so the feeling doesn't last long
I did realize that a stack of Praets does need at least one axe for protection against other axes, but otherwise the Praets rule the land. By the time Khaaan had fallen I had enough units (loads of cash for support since tech is at 0) to prosecute a two-front war. So I go after Liz and Biz. By 500 I've beaten Liz back to just London. I can see she's completely hemmed in so I don't want to take London just yet since it looks like it will turn into a big barb generator to threaten Rome unless I fill it with units. Also by 500 AD I'm starting to mass troops at Berlin which should fall in a few turns. I've got three workers along for the fight to build the roads to distant enemies. As long as I can continue this way and wipe out the other civs prior to them getting longbows and macemen, I should easily win this one. This has been one of better learning GOTM for me. I'm usually a builder, but this temps me to the dark side of war mongering (as long as I can play Jules and have access to iron, that is)

No way would I have done this well with the contender start. I think you'd need a bit of luck to win that one. I think I'll play the contender file for grins. With the fore-knowledge of the resource placement and opponents, there might be a chance of pulling it off - but blind in real GOTM fashion? No way could I win the game without tremendous luck.

 

[Htadus]

Interesting Second Game.....yes I already submitted.

Settled in place, built worker first and kept the warrior fortified. Then built 2 more warriors and a settler. Founded the second city at the lakefront hill and started Axes. Took Lizzies horse and flood plain cities and marched on to London. Once England was gone, it was time for Monty. It is 246AD and we are building cats, Elephants and preats. City raiding team has 3 Axes and 5 Preats and we had luck in our side. Barely lost more than one unit at each city but barb axes are having some great luck against Roman units. From this point on hope to head toward a domination if things wont south. Oh yeah London had the Stonehenge; how appropriate!.

Any ways cant believe how mauch the City placement make or break a game. This has been a very eye opening game and I think it is again high lighting the possitive effects of early and quick wars.

@AlanH
When during my original game the lonly Aztech Archer came and took out the only defender in the city, I recall that the defender was a recruit and the archer had 2 stars. May be if they have even odds they risk attacking. just guessing.

Drphil: Hope you win. Even if it is adventurer you should medal for winning.

 

[xXMugenXx]

It is frustrating when i get a string of bad luck. I swear it seems the odds aren't what they say they are, but i haven't done a scientific study.

This goes both ways though. In my retry I had 4 axemen kill 9 archers in 3 cities without any loses with 24-26% "odds". That was good for me.

 

[Gnejs]

Contender, alive and kicking 100 AD

Settled SW when the warrior discovered the gold. I shut off research the first time after bringing in BW, IW, Hunting, AH, and the wheel (can't remember the exact order though). Built worker first, with the initial warrior only exploring for a few turns before returning home. After the worker I built a bunch of warriors to explore my immediate surroundings and defend against the barbarians. No AI entered my cultural borders until about 2400 BC, maybe this had to do with the number of units I had in or close to Rome?

I settled city #2 on the hill SE of the desert iron for better defense. This turned out to be an excellent decision as the barbarians have endlessly stormed up through the forests in the south and broken on my axe+pret defenders. I also had a spear on the iron mine to take care of chariot pillagers, while the foot soldiers handled more serious attackers. The Iron has been protected the throughout the game so far, although I stupidly forgot to take care of a barb warrior that pillaged the road connection to Rome once, right next to my idel combat 3 pret...

I went after England first, razing two cities, capturing York (between Ivory and horses NE of Rome) and a little later, London. Since then, Monty has been sending galleys with units towards London, but two prets have been enough to prevent any pillaging.

Simultaneously I started sending out prets towards Genghis, and I have by now razed all his cities except Karakorum, which I kept (Stonehenge) and some other city that I haven't spotted yet. I have even had two combat 4 prets pillaging around Beijing, but when it became obvious that they couldn't capture anything I sent them back to help defend Karakorum.

All the razing funded my research for a while, so I have now also grabbed Mysticism, Writing, Mathematics and Masonry. As you can see I am on the way to Construction, but I might need to detour to Agriculture first to be able to improve production in my cities.

The situation at 100 AD is the following:
I have five cities, Rome, Antium, York, London, Karakorum. The AIs seem to recently have signed OB with each other, because now there is a torrent of attackers converging on Karakorum, making it difficult to develop that city. York has great potential but needs to be given some perimeter defenses so I can let my workers improve the resources around it. Antium is size 1 and not growing since I am working the desert iron giving 5h per turn. London is just starting to contribute with prets after having been delayed when I stupidly lost a worker. The production in Rome and the superiority of combat promoted prets is what is keeping me in the game.
I think I have around 20 prets now, having lost about 15, many of them stupidly. I have 5-6 prets in the York area that I intend to stop Monty with (they have already razed his Iron city). I have 6-7 prets at Karakorum who are mainly defending inside the city.

The situation would be much improved if I could get better production in my secondary cities. I might even settle another city somewhere safe, perhaps east of Rome, to help out with building prets.

This game is definitely winnable but I am not sure that I will be able to do so. My mistakes with losing too many prets and not getting my cities developed for war production soon enough may become too costly in the long run...

 

[jesusin]

I am in awe with @Drphil and @Karmina achievements.

What I find pathetic is that the AI units "know" that the city is undefended without being close enough to actually see the city center. (sigh)

Completely agree. The AI is cheating.

On the other hand, what would you call "looking into the SDK to see what the aI will decide"? AI is only looking into our city, we are looking into its brains.

Anyway, I thought I'd come here looking for help.

Well, this game was really difficult. If you have read other people spoilers, you will have realize that most people are in need of help too, including me.

Anyway, maybe settling your second city not 2 tiles North of copper but on the copper would have been better. That's usually a bad move, but in this game it would have helped you to have to defend less roads. In your second attemp I wouldn't have built SH, Rome is in need of many more units, no time for wonders.

I don't think you played a bad game, most of us were pillaged and conquered.

 

[cabert]

I settled on the iron and still lost.
It was a good decision, since it allowed me to build praets a lot sooner, but it wasn't enough to break the tide.
I had 3 "defenders" (CR praets don't defend too well) vs 6+ attackers and unlucky rolls. No decision on earth can change this.

Settling on the hill next to the iron sounds better, but I settled Rome on a hill, had a CG3 archer in there + other defenders and still lost the city.
The feudalism slingshot maybe a "time winner", although I doubt this will lead to a victory.

 

[frogdude]

Only my second GOTM and I'm still alive. But probably not for much longer

After building a bunch of archer's to defend my hills, I settled up north and started making axemen "for defense". So far so good. I even got to the stage where I had a couple of axemen spare, so I started wandering, taking a city off Montezuma on the way, and then conquering Elizabeth (bar some silly tundra cities).

Finally some Iron! A couple of Praetorians later and we're in business. This is where I made my biggest mistake and started to get too confident. I decided I could afford to build a few long term building like a forge, library, etc. Big mistake.

The hordes came and I beat them back time & time again. But still they came. Every time, my army grew smaller and smaller as every once in a while I lost an odds on battle, or my injured army just couldn't heal fast enough.

I've survived until the point where I must end my journal in this First Spoiler, but the future looks bleak. My capital is surrounded and full of injured troops. I've lost half my empire. My iron is temporarily disabled to due boat forces landed.

My best score is likely to be by retiring, but I will not take the cowards way out. I will head back and face my foes like a man.

Adieu....

 

[Vynd]

It seemed to me that to win I would need to cripple several civs early via either pillaging of strategic resources or outright destruction of cities, and simultaneously build up a core of defensible cities that could produce enough units to take on everyone I hadn’t crippled. I pretty much failed to accomplish any of this… but I still think the idea was sound.

I settled SW to get access to Gold, even though I strongly suspected I’d be moving away from metal. Better to get something for sure than stake all my hopes on something that *might* be there. I built a worker first, but kept my Warrior pretty close to home and thereby avoided an early death by Archer. After I built my worker it was all military units for a long while. I had no intention of settling a second city until I found Iron.

Throughout the early stages I favored research over most everything else in an attempt to get a leg up on the competition. I researched BW first, primarily so I could chop forests. After that I targeted Archery because I knew I’d need them while I worked my way to Praetorians. Then came AH and the Wheel. I started researching Iron Working in 2410 BC and completed it in 1780, at which point I started building a Settler to go for the SW desert Iron.

While all this was going on I built a ton of Archers and used them to harass England, kill all kinds of Scouts and Archers, and defend my Worker and improvements. After I had a Settler I built another Worker, a Barracks, and an Axeman (Rome’s culture had expanded to get the Copper) while waiting for Iron. Antium went on a hill next to the Iron.

After that I chopped/built Praets as fast as I could and sent them against England. But I kept having to hold some back for defense as more and more enemies moved in. So while I was able to capture the two best English cities, York and London, it took until 145 BC.

I did my best to build up enough troops to fan out and pillage, but whenever I was on the verge of sending troops anywhere but England they ran head on into a bunch of bad guys and had to fall back. Once Horse Archers started showing up around 1 AD, it became very difficult to defend my improvements and the road to Antium and its Iron. In 245 AD I abandoned that city and fell back to Rome. I now had Iron from London and for a brief while it looked like I’d be able to push out. I sent 4 or 5 Praets into Monty’s land, for instance. But they were overwhelmed, and it became clear to me I would lose.

But I was still alive, with 3 cities, at 500 AD.

 

[Vynd]

When the first AI archer appeared my warrior was far enough from city center that I moved it to one tile short of city center, then the AI archer moved one tile into my territory, then I moved into city center and the archer then moved back out and no other AI entered my territory till much later when then came en masse.

I had the same experience. Another interesting thing I noticed was that the AI sometimes left Scouts parked outside of my territory, not only not moving them for awhile but actually holding still even when I moved Warriors next to them, allowing me to kill them the next turn. Weird. It occurs to me now that they might have been healing after an animal attack, but still, you'd think they would run from certain death.

 

[LowtherCastle]

Excellent job, so far, Gnejs! Hope you do it!!!

I got as far as conquering England but abandoned when I lost my iron connection, got annoyed and strated reading this spoiler thread.... If (...IF...) I had an outside chance to win, it would take me forever and I'm not in the mood for one of those protracted games. I also delayed developing my prod centers too long. (Should have taken Lexad's advice and researched some food before IW, or at least right after...) Btw, excellent idea on the spear...I should have thought of that.

Anyway, I was thinking along similar lines as you. England's land is very well situated for a production center since it's isolated. Once you get a huge supply of cats rolling out, then I think you'll prevail.