GOTM 28 Spoiler 1 - End Of Ancient Age, Full View of Starting Continent

Originally posted by ...
I know what you're thinking. Did he fire six shots or only five.
Well if it isn't Dirty Clint! Good to see you again! :)

Originally posted by zagnut
I was willing to take any reputation hit in order to survive against a larger, more aggressive, opponent.
"Larger, more aggressive opponent"? That sure tickled my funny bone after reading your first post. Somehow I'd come away with the impression that you were the aggressive one :lol:

Originally posted by Megalou
Peacelovers/Cowards/Hypocrits finished AA in...
That's my group! :)

As well as seeing whether the other group makes up for lost development time, we'll see whether this group makes up for lost expansion time. Should be interesting. Even though I'm in the Cowardly group I do agree with subsequent posts that gaining exclusive ownership of our continent ASAP is a top priority :lol:
 
Originally posted by SirPleb
As well as seeing whether the other group makes up for lost development time, we'll see whether this group makes up for lost expansion time. Should be interesting.

I was thinking the same thing after reading your spoiler. You went against classic ancient domination strategy not just by leaving Persia alone until the advent of the elephant, but also with your city layout and choice of government. As a result, you are lagging in territory, but unusually far along in the research path that could give you swift, overwhelming military victory - especially via domination, which will presumably require fewer overseas invasions.

This game should prove to be an excellent tutorial in a different way to skin a very popular cat.
 
There was I, congratulating myself on my new-found early warfare approach to the domination game, and thinking how well I'd started off by butchering Xerxes in the Ancient era. And Sir Pleb goes and changes the rules again! Ah well! Back to the drawing board :confused:
 
Originally posted by AlanH
There was I, congratulating myself on my new-found early warfare approach to the domination game, and thinking how well I'd started off by butchering Xerxes in the Ancient era. And Sir Pleb goes and changes the rules again! Ah well! Back to the drawing board :confused:

SirPleb's approach is promising due to the unusual circumstances of this game. First, it's unlikely that Persia could be eliminated very early on Predator. Secondly, the lack of any other neighbors makes scientific Persia a valuable trading companion. Thirdly, that every other military target is overseas - and possibly scattered all over the global map - makes the need to research quickly at least to astronomy essential for a high score. (I did exactly the same thing even though I'm playing for a cultural win, because I am trying to do so with a high score, which requires starting as if also playing for domination.) All this said, it's unlikely that this will be among SirPleb's highest domination scores - because he didn't eliminate Persia immediately.
 
A quick report out on my progress.

Start:
moved east, settled there. Build a ring at distance 5, containing 6 cities. Was very lucky at start as my first warrior went south and popped a settler from hut. Settled north of the lake north of persepolis, which gave me the connection to wool. Used it as a base to crank out warriors, and with 6 of them I conquered Persepolis, after which Xerxes was no longer a threat. Fought one other war with him to get his iron, but that was it.

Send out galleys that discovered several other civs. They helped me in my tech and treasury development.

At QSC I had 13 cities, 3 luxuries connected, and in war for the iron. By QSC only the Colossus was built, but not on my continent.

Once again a great map, with (I figure) well planned events and resources availability. Compliments to the GOTM staff again!
 
Sorry, forgot to mention:

playing PTW 1.14f Predator.

One thing to mention still: after capturing Persepolis their capital moved east. This left their iron city unconnected, hence no immortals to fight for me. For info, I only took persepolis and the iron town. The rest of Persia is still intact, helping me in the tech development.
 
OPEN PTW

Didn't think I'd have time to play this month but I devoted about 12h this weekend and managed to finish in that time. Unfortunatly I was quite weak on taking notes (as usual).

Had no real plan when I started. I wanted a pretty quick game. The starting location looked good. Settled on the spot. Delhi became a warrior-settler town for large portions of this era. Followed the river to the coast and I found a really good spot for a culture town, so a culture victory would be my goal.

Started out by picking bronze working in 20t on my science.

3150bc, pop my first and only hut for a warrior south of the mountain range. I also see the border that can only be that of Xerxes (oh how I hate him). He is annoyed, has an army of my size and two techs I don't have (masonry and wc).

3100bc, bronze is done. myst next. Bombay (my future culture town) is founded by the coast at the river delta.

2630bc Temple in bombay done. First culture there. Start constructing the Colossus.

2510bc I have somewhat of warrior mob down around the Persian border and Xerexes is really turning out those settlers a bit to fast for my taste. Time to teach Xerxes this ain't his island. So I go to war, never been to war this early in any GOTM I think.

The war culminates in the raise of Susa in 2310bc, it was a size 1 town so it wasn't like I had a choice had hoped for some free slave labour but he settled rather then give 'em up. A few turns later Xerxes begs for peace and gets it for 9gp, wheel, warrior code and masonry (all he had at the moment).

At this time I am starting to think that Xerxes is so going to be my bi***. Gee was I wrong. He got iron, I didn't, not only that. No horses either. The best I could hope for was an army of archers or to wait for ye old elephants. CRAP!

[ time passes, some cities founded, made some trade ]

In 1575 bc The Colossus is built in Bombay triggering my golden age, ok didn't want that one. This was the start of one wasted golden age in my mind. I didn't have the infrastructure or government to take care of that. Starting Oracle construction.

In 1525 bc Polyteism is done, going for monarchy and in 1050 bc just before the end of the QSC my golden age comes to an end.

I have one more little spat with Xerxes before the end of the ancient era. I enter the middle age in 110ad. Notes start to get even vaguer now since I don't take many notes past the QSC. Mostly notes about where WOW went.

Xerxes managed to build the Pyramids in Persepolis in 710bc and some unknown civ called the Unnyno'un built a Great wall in 290bc (where? I don't know).


When I leave the ancient era, Bombay have the following culture generating structures.

Temple 2670bc
Colossus 1575bc
Oracle 0975bc
Hanging Gardens 0530bc
Library 0450bc
Great library 0010ad

So I managed to sqeeze in four wonders. That was an ok start.
 
How many people besides civ_steve (see his map on page 2 of this thread) made the pass-through canal cities on the southern lake? I missed it completely since Persia had built cities which I didn't raze. Much later I was kicking myself for not seeing it in the Ancient Age and fixing the problem...


I held off a Persian demand for money with archers and spearmen--then I was one of the lucky ones to have an Iron source pop-up in my territory...so I was able to finish off Persia with swordsmen.
 
I was placing those 2 cities to support my invasion of Persia, then a little light goes off! Hey, I can make a Panama Canal, too!!

Unfortunately, RL has permitted me very little game time this month - I'm still in the early Middle Ages :( , so I don't believe I'll be able to use this militarily; there's just not enough time left this month to be too aggressive with my style of civving.
 
Originally posted by pterrok
How many people besides civ_steve (see his map on page 2 of this thread) made the pass-through canal cities on the southern lake? I missed it completely since Persia had built cities which I didn't raze.

Yes! Me, me, me ... over here!!! Persia built Pasargadae on the eastern side of the lake and I pushed a settler down to the western side to buld Bengal and give myself a head start on grabbing Arbela and the iron. I noticed the canal setup because I had exploited a similar situation quite accidentally during the Greece game.
 
The canal is brilliant! Too bad I didn't think of it, or ever used it. That would save at least two to five turns going around, depending on which age you are in.
 
I saw it but I didn't feel like raising the persian city. But I recall commenting to myself what a dumb arse place for Xerxes to put his city in. If he had just moved it one square it would have been perfect.
 
I so wanted to play nice with Persia. I settled the north end of the continent through Mutton Valley, and immediately sent my army of ~8 warriors to fortify in the mountains and try to stymie and attempt by Persia at war. I further tried to slate her warmongering with lots of trades; I even paid for that darn embassy.

Things were looking good, with my research being slightly behind, but definitely in good shape of improving with infrastructure. Persia was polite, and oh so nice, and since I held a lot of units I decided to switch to building all those libraries I would want for culture/research.

And then war. ~5 turns after I gave in to Persia's 23g extortion, she attacked me anyway. But I had spearmen and archers in the mountains, and figured I could pump out units in some of my cities and hold a defensive war.

Until the immortals came. I think Ironworking was one of the first techs Persia researched; she certainly had it when I first met her (and i cringed in anticipation of a storm of immortals. hense the defensive positioning on the mountains). But the problem was that Persia ran over my fortified spearmen in the mountains quite easily, and once the immortals were on the mountains, my archers rarely if ever could take them down; in fact, only once did she even lose an immortal to an attack, and that was to Calcutta itself, since the town was on a hill. When Calcutta fell there was much nashing of teeth and wailing; I quickly re-tooled my strategy, and paid ~80 gold for peace.

Falling behind in the tech race due to my lack of research did not help, and now I find myself switching to drastic measures to make up lost ground. My commerce is at 10/0/0 with a lone scientist keeping my research going, and the extra income is helping me produce an army of archers to retake Calcutta. My workers are fortifying the mountains between my southern cities and Persia, especially in the valley itself. My goal is to prebuild for Leo's and gain enough gold in the meantime to upgrade all my archers to longbowmen (w/o horses I can't do the more appealing horsemen -> elephant upgrade), and storm the persian empire. At least I hope to regain Calcutta and take up a defensive posture in the mountains, but all my ambitions of conquering the continent are put on hold, maybe indefinitely.

We'll see how it pans out, but I am fearing that as my first GotM, it is turning out pretty poorly.
 
Wow Pindicator. :) Welcome to the forum :p

I find that the Civs that have UU's which require iron research IW immeditely, if not sooner.

Defending against immortals is very tough and if I can I try to attack them.

I'll wait with baited breath to see if you can muster heards of elephants and hordes of longbows to put the X-man in his place.
The very best of luck!
 
He pindicator, welcome to the forum.

As I like the immortals only when I'm playing Persia, my strategy playing against them sofar has been to cripple them early (if possible of course). In your case I would have taken the ~8 warriors and marched them to Persepolis, that's what I did.

Early on in the game you find out that cities are only defended by 2 spearman max and with 8 warriors that shouldn't be a problem.

I captured Persepolis like this, and that took the sting out of them for the rest of the game.

SirPleb and others showed other ways to keep them calm, but with an initial fight as well, but prepared and anticipated.

Agree with mad-bax: now sit tight, and get yourself elephants. You need them.:lol:
 
Originally posted by killerloop



Early on in the game you find out that cities are only defended by 2 spearman max and with 8 warriors that shouldn't be a problem.


I am just lurking as I haven't got time to play this month. It is good to see the number of posts has increased so much for this game.

It seems to me that 8 warriors v 2 fortified spearmen may be no push over. For example a 15 hp warrior army ( = 5 reg warriors) v a fortfied elite spearman has a 61% chance of winning. This isn't bad but is not a cinch. Please correct me if i am wrong as the odds of this sort of thing make my brain hurt.
 
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Wow, last month I was done and submitted by the 6th, this month it’s the 19th and I just qualified for the first spoiler yesterday! We need more blizzards so I can get more Civ time in! I had already typed my post before reading this thread, but after reading other posts, looks like I am in the “early war” category, but unfortunately I wasn’t as prepared as I would have liked ;)

Pre-Game Strategy
I had decided before even starting this GOTM that I wanted to go for a 100K culture victory, because my first GOTM (way back in GOTM8) was with India, on Monarch, and I won a 100K without really knowing what I was doing until half-way through the game. I thought this would be a good comparison to see how much I have improved (if any!). 100K means lots of cities, either by expansion or force. I knew with our UU I would want lots of horses for upgrades, so I decided I would concentrate on the Horse/Religious/Monarchy part of the tech tree, and try to get to Monarchy before my GA (unusual for me, but since we were religious, I could easily switch to republic later). Based on the start, I wasn’t even sure about a granary, but after my first move, I saw the cow, so I detoured to Pottery first (only one Expansionist civ, not good odds of trading for it). I also wanted to trigger my GA early with wonders, so I could use it on Libraries and cathedrals sooner, and to speed my early MA research to Education. I would need Colossus, Oracle, or Pyramids for religious, and Lighthouse for commercial, so I planned on an early coastal wonder city.

Early building and exploration
Start by moving worker E to BG, revealing the rumored cow. Settler moves SE to the forest, with the cow and several BG it should be productive, but no other food bonuses. Next turn I found Delhi, start on Warrior. Even though I can’t get a 4-turn settler factory, I can get a 6-turn factory with a granary, so I start max research on Pottery (18 turns). Worker moves S to irrigate the cattle. I didn’t see the second cattle until after my culture expanded, so I never did get a 4-turn factory. From here I built 3 warriors, then the granary. My warriors explored west to the coast then north, south, and the third north for a bit then back to being an MP by 3000BC. I made contact with a conscript warrior from Persia in 3300.
J2_GOTM28_3250.jpg


Xerxes was up BW, Masonry, and WC, and short my two techs, but I was 1 turn from Pottery, so I waited. Time for trading, I can’t get all three techs, the best I can get is Warrior Code and Bronze Working and 10g for Alpha, Pottery, CB. I started research on the Wheel, but Xerxes got it in 2900, and I couldn’t pry it away, so I ended up switching research to Mysticism at max then, wasting about 7 turns of research. By that point I had confirmed I am alone with Persia on this continent, which is not a good feeling. :( Warriors from here on out are mostly concerned with barbs. Mysticism came in in 2270AD, but I still can’t buy the Wheel. Maybe Xerxes is researching Myst? About the best deal I can swing is Bronze Working (which I need for spears and Colossus) and a worker for Myst, 8g+6gpt. Start min research on Polytheism.

Delhi completed Granary in 2850, and I decided to try some strange gyrations to set up a hybrid factory, just as seen on TV ;) . I first built 2 settlers, and a second worker, bringing pop all the way down to 3, then built a barracks while it grew back, and mined 3BGs. The result was a Spear-Warrior-Settler factory at size 5-6, getting 10-11spt and kicking out vet military. My plan was that it would eventually be a Horse-Settler, but that was not to be, and in fact spent many cycles doing Warrior-Warrior-Warrior-Settler. But it seemed the best use of shields during the 6-turn growth cycle. It did require MM every third turn to take a worker off the forest, where the AI loved to put it after growth, but it was very productive.

Meanwhile, I used the first settler to build Bombay on the coast E of the 2nd cow, which would be my wonder city. After a temple, I started on the Colossus. I sent my next two settlers SW to secure the mountain ranges and sheep, building Madras in 2350 and Bangalore in 1700, just west of the sheep/plain. After a warrior and whipped temple, they both built barracks. By now I was facing swarms of barbs, including barb horses. Delhi is pumping out vet warriors as fast as I can, to keep them from my workers or Bombay. I run 30-40% lux through part of this time, as I can’t afford to keep MPs in Delhi, they are out killing barbs. In the midst of this, Xerxes demands 21g. I am tempted to say no, which would give me back my 6gpt, but with all the barbs running around I have my hands full right now, so I cave. My fourth city, Calcutta, is founded SW of the oyster, away from the fray, in 1650. Lahore, my planned Spice city, is delayed until 1500, when it is finally safe from barbs. By 1575 I finally have some cash freed up, and I can by The Wheel for 40g+8gpt, so I can switch Delhi to a Horse-Settler factory as intended. Except, NO HORSES! :( That’s a lot of money down the drain, when I could have bought Writing… Hey, where did the barbs get their horses from, if there are no horses on our continent? ;)

I found a couple more cities before the end of the QSC, Karachi and Kolhapur, filling out 6 cities in my RCP4. Most cities build warrior, worker, then temple. I even pull my troops out of the tundra, to farm a new barb camp or two for my archers to practice on, while I send my elite warriors south to the border. But then, bad news! Vikings get Colossus, beating me by 3 turns!! Swap to Oracle, but I don’t really want that one, I will have to hope I can pull Map-Making with Poly when it comes in. This is followed by some unexpected good news, though:
J2_GOTM28_Tarsus.jpg
 
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(Continued from Previous Post)


QSC Wrap-up
Also, two turns later, in 1075, Polytheism is completed, and I beat Xerxes. Time to do some bargaining. Interestingly, we both have plenty of cash, and I can play around and get exact values of the techs available. Xerxes has IronWorking (230g), Writing (280), Horseback (175) and 370g, he values Poly at 355g, and I have 275g on hand. I decide to get Writing first, to see what other techs he has beyond that, hoping for at least Map-Making, as I can’t afford to play Monopoly with Xerxes much longer! I get Writing and 77g for Poly, and he has Map, but no others, and wants about 500g for it. I buy Map Making for 200+15gpt, hoping that the gpt would be some insurance against attack. But at least I can swap to the Lighthouse, and get off this island and find some trading partners. I also swap Karachi and Calcutta to galleys. Finally I start min research on Monarchy. Turns out Map-Making was just in time, as Athens completes the Oracle in 1050BC! At the end of the QSC, nothing completes, but a lot of stuff is about to. Delhi has a settler due in 1, Lighthouse in 2, and 2 galleys in the next 4 turns. However, Xerxes has moved several archers into my territory, and I don’t want to let him have a sneak attack, so I order him to leave:
J2_GOTM28_Trouble.jpg

Are there any QSC bonus points for having war declared on the last turn? Luckily I have several elite warriors and a few vet archers near the border, as I never did trust Xerxes, but this could get ugly. I haven’t seen any Immortals yet, maybe there is no iron on this continent? (Since there were no horses, it would force us to use our elephants). Either way, I can’t get Iron Working now, so archers it is, until I can get some contacts and buy tech at reasonable prices. My QSC stats: 10 cities, 27 population. 5 Temples, 1 Granary, 2 Barracks, and 275+ shields into GL. I have 182g, all first level techs, and Writing, Map-Making, Mysticism, and Polytheism. My army on this outbreak of war consists of 12 warriors, 3 archers, and 2 spear, as well as 6 workers and 1 slave.

Post-QSC
Progress in the war was slow with just archers, and Susa falls to my two elite warriors in 975BC, but then I concentrated on defense, killing his archers as they streamed at me. I did complete the Great Lighthouse in 950, and the next turn, I get more good news, as Persia completes the Pyramids! The Lighthouse does pay off in a big way, but I will save most of that for the next spoiler. At this point, all I’ll say is I was able to get Iron Working, Mathematics, Horseback, and Code of Laws from some unnamed civs in 875BC. Now I notice the cruel Irony, Persia has Iron and I don’t. I had seen a couple regular immortals now that the war has started, but realize he has a city by the Iron, but the city is not connected to his capital. I do use my newfound knowledge to start building catapults, even whipping them from the Persian cities, and building a small force to take Persepolis. Unfortunately it is distracted several times by archers and immortals, and so I send a small task force to pillage his iron. He must have known what they were after, and it’s a desperate race, as he kills most of them, but it only takes one brave survivor:
J2_GOTM28_Pillage.jpg


It remains a bloody campaign, and I end up losing all my elites without generating any leaders. I guess that’s what I get for attacking before I was really ready (although he attacked me). Eventually I accumulate enough cats and archers, and Persepolis falls in 550BC, getting me the Pyramids!
J2_GOTM28_Pyramids.jpg


I also notice Persia has Monarchy already, which no one else does, and my min research is still 18 turns away, so I make peace for Monarchy and 120g , while I give Math and Philo, then get his last 299g for Construction (two more techs I picked up from anonymous friends). I revolt into Monarchy next turn, and decide to grab Literature while I am waiting for someone to get Currency. I get it in 4 at deficit spending, but no luck, I have to research Currency on my own, which completes in 330BC, and I am the first into the Middle Ages.

After rushing a library, Delhi is working on Hanging Gardens (due in 19), which is a decent wonder, but more importantly will trigger my GA now that I have Pyramids to go with the Lighthouse. Or I could switch to one of the early MA wonders. Cascade is dead, and only Persia is working on Hanging Gardens. Xerxes has 9 turns left on the peace treaty, but since no one has contact with him yet, I’m not feeling very restrained about waiting that long, I may try to take him out before anyone else can get over here. I’m also starting to have second thoughts about the 100K culture goal, this is a small continent, to do it well I will need to take over quite a bit more land, as well as being a little more time-consuming in RL terms. I also should have settled more densely, although I could fix that now by cramming in more cities. We’ll see how things go over the weekend!

The Kingdom of India, 330BC
J2_GOTM28_330BC.jpg
 
A couple more comments after reading the rest of this thread. I am suprised that several players talk about early contacts with other civs, them settling on islands or even the home continent. Maybe it's just because I got the Lighthouse early, but no other civ has come near our lands. I had contact with all other civs by 610BC, and none have approached us, or even gotten close. I still hope to destroy Persia before that changes! Maybe I will set up a blockade?

I wish I had farmed the barbs longer, and gotten more elites, but Xerxes forced my hand. I should be able to quickly consolidate some good Persian territory, but with no leaders, and no elites left, FP placement will be a problem. I do have mostly vets now, so there is a chance of getting promoted and then getting a leader in the next campaign, but it's going to be tough.

Regarding tech pace, Xerxes was more a hindrance than a help. In hindsight, I would have been in trouble if the Lighthouse hadn't come through, and should have done more of my own research, instead of paying his blackmail prices.
 
Nice start Justus II! Sounds like a very interesting game. Your six turn 30s+settler factory with barracks is nice. What a shame it couldn't be used for horsemen or swordsmen. Still, you've put it to good use :) And handled Persia very nicely :thumbsup:
 
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