GOTM 28 Spoiler 1 - End Of Ancient Age, Full View of Starting Continent

[t.neo]

1.27f Open

After Sir Bugsy's encouraging post I will try to share some of my experiences during the ancient Age of this Game of the Month.

Originally posted by Megalou
t.neo, did you know that there are a bunch of medals for earliest finish by all the different victory conditions to fight for?

Yes, and I participated in gotm24 Korea but I was nowhere near those dates. Although I think I managed ok for my first Game of the Month. This game I finished Ancient Age somewhere between 300BC and 10AD. I think you can count me in between your categories for this game since I had a long defensive war with Persia in the beginning.

My biggest mistake I think was that I didn't set myself a specific goal to achieve from the beginning. Now when I have finished the game I realise that I could have finished a lot earlier if I had.

But here is my summary for the Ancient Age:

After scouting one square with my worker I decided to found Delhi on the spot. There is a cow (as we all know now) in reach and I decide to go for Pottery to build a granary for pumping out a few settlers. First I build a couple of warriors to scout.

I soon managed to get contact with the Persians and also locating some nice luxuries. Even though I pretty soon was sending a Settler south the Persians managed to settle the strategic important valley in the mountains before me. I guess I should have settled outside in instead. So all cites in my empire are on my side of the mountain.

My main goal was to get the Great Lighthouse and after researching Pottery to research straight for Map Making. Usually I go straight for Monarchy after Pottery and trade discovered techs during the course. Since this was a bit new for me it didn't work to well with my plans for building wonders and culture. I most often choose the Egyptians and then I often am able to switch to Monarchy and Finish the Hanging Gardens just when a new age is dawning. I like to not be at war during my Golden Age, to be able to build culture improvements in all of my cities. Maybe I should have done as always but I don't think that would have been optimal for the Indians since we know Alphabet from the start.

As I said earlier I didn't manage do avoid an early war. Although I was trying really hard to live peaceful besides the Persians they attacked me and I was in my first war. This meant I lost a lot of early culture I think. And the Persian also managed to take one of my better cities, Bangalore, which had a lot of improvements. Eventually I retook Bangalore and made peace.

At the end of the age I owned the Great Lighthouse and had made contact with 6 other civilizations. I hadn't built so many wonders yet but neither had my opponents.

Next game I will try to write down better so I remember what happened! Thanks everybody for a great site!

(My meaning was to put the picture here but I don't know how to set the width in vb code) Moderator Action: Fixed your pic link. To display it, just put [IMG] and [/IMG] around the hyperlink to the post.

 

[AlanH]

Open - Mac 1.29b2

Wow! Quite a ride. Well done Ainwood, it's going to be great if you can sustain this standard of game design. I've lost two nights sleep in "just-one-more-turn" mode, and the game's only just begun.

When I opened the save it was absolutely clear on my monitor that the suspect cow was ... a cow. I settled on the spot, on the basis that I could reach it once I was big enough to need it, but forgetting that I had to pipe water to it to exploit it fully. I was also hung up on not irrigating bonus grass, so I roaded and mined the bonus grass to the east, then chopped the SE forest to help build my granary, and then irrigated through that to the cow. Meanwhile I researched Pottery flat out. All this activity meant that I produced several warriors before my first settler, and had the whole island explored fairly fast. I met Persia south of Mutton Valley and did a deal for Bronze and Warrior Code. By then I knew there was no one else around in the north, except barbs, so the Bronze was important to spot when Persia could build Immortals and I needed Warrior Code so I could farm the northern barb camps for cash and elites and build a force to handle Mr X.

My first settler founded Bombay two tiles west of Delhi, and was able to share the two cattle tiles to make a knd of an improvised settler/warrior/archer/worker farm double act that populated the entire northern two thirds of the island before land ran out. A couple of archers and warriors profitably farmed the tundra for barb camps until that area was taken under Indian ownership.

After Pottery i ran 40 turn projects for Writing and Literature, both of which allowed me to do some trades. Xerxes was selling techs at high prices, as he was my only contact until about 500 BC and could charge monopoly prices. I only had one ransom demand from him - 23 gold before I was in good shape to handle him, so I grtted my teeth and paid up. I bought teh Wheel from him and discovered this was not going to be a four-legged fight . Around 400 BC Civ X sailed into view having build the Lighthouse. It was apparent that Persia had seen them first, as they had a couple of new techs all of a sudden a few years before. So both civs had the same tech set, giving no room for brokerage, and all it did for me was to reduce prices a bit.

When Iron working came along I traded for it to discover that Arbele was sitting on the only source, and Abele was temporarily in Persian hands. By this time Persia also had the Pyramids. So my total focus turned to building an archer army to deter and take out Persia. By 250 BC I had over 20 archers, nearly all vets, and a small team of warriors to upgrade once I had the iron. My forces were assembled on the mountains at the southern end of Mutton Valley, and I'd been able to settle a city a few tiles north of Arbela on the west coast, just beating Persia's last settler. Unfortunately my southern base was on the wrong side of the rivers from both Persepolis and Arbela which slowed the final attack somewhat, but you can't have everything.

By 250 BC I figured I was as ready as I was going to be, and Xerxes had been enjoying his iron for rather a long time. As a result of my rapid growth I had moved up the F11 rankings to number 1 in area, population, GNP ... my military advisor put me stronger than Persia and Civ X ... all the vital signs were good. Persia had started to make a few incursions with settler groups, I guess trying for the last remaining northern tundra sites, but unfortunately Xerxes backed off when I challenged him. So I declared war and took three cities, including the iron city of Arbela, in the next few turns. I then got greedy and unlucky. I wanted that capital ... NOW! My archer stack and a few upgraded Swords threw themselves at Persepolis hoping for the same results we had achieved in the other cities. The RNG plus a couple of counter-attacking Immortals put paid to that idea, and my army of archers and upgraded warriors was quite quickly reduced to a shadow of its former self. So I laid seige to Persepolis, fighting and pillaging and generally wearing them down, and meanwhile building up a new swordsman army.

During this period Xerxes must have been enjoying his Golden Age, and he was in the Medieval by 50 AD. Persian culture took a great leap forward with the previous completion of the Pyramids plus lots of libraries, I suspect. Arbela flipped back to Persia twice during this hiatus, allowing Xerxes to build a few Immortals briefly. Bactra, the north eastern city, also flipped once. I knew I couldn't sell a peace treaty, even though Persia was prepared to give two or three techs away, because if Arbela flipped during a peacetime Golden Age I would have to trash my rep to get it back or else Xerxes would build the Immortals army to end all my dreams of world domination. I did create one leader among the carnage, and he built my Forbidden Palace in the captured city of Pasagardae on the east coast/lake. During these hostilities I traded with Civ X for Monarchy and revolted.

In 340 AD, very late, I entered the Medieval Era when I traded some of my excellent spices to Civ X for Code of Laws. I should have curbed my trading enthusiasm, as next turn I attacked Persepolis and my last available 2/4 swordsman had his day against the last defending spear. He took the city, complete with the Great Library and the Pyramids. The Library gave me Republic plus all the first level Medieval techs. Xerxes is now down to two cities on the south coast, so it's only a matter of time now. He has nothing of value to trade for peace. If I kill him I have only one contact, so I assume I won't get any new techs from the Library until I make a second contact. Meanwhile I'm going for Chivalry and Dumbo. Interesting choices

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by AlanH
Xerxes is now down to two cities on the south coast, so it's only a matter of time now. He has nothing of value to trade for peace. If I kill him I have only one contact, so I assume I won't get any new techs from the Library until I make a second contact.

True, but with only 2 civs its unlikely he'll be able to research competitively, or trade for tech from the other civ. You think?

AlanH!

 

[AlanH]

From the electric pen of Dojoboy:
its unlikely he'll be able to research competitively, or trade for tech from the other civ. You think?

I agree, I can't see him being a useful research resource wthout also becoming a threat again. I don't see that I have any choice but to destroy him to remove any risk of flips or a revival. The timing of new contacts is going to be the interesting issue. If I can avoid it for a while I might get a slingshot past Education. On the other hand that will make Dumbo obsolete before I can use him. That's why I said I have interesting choices.

Open - Mac 1.29b2

 

[Boyd]

@jeffd210...

If I recall correctly, the game will autoraze towns that have not culturally expanded or that are not at 2 pop or greater (this inlcudes capitals). so if you want to capture a town you must let it "grow"... or bring settlers along in your retinue.

 

[Grotius]

I've heard the diplomatic penalties for razing are stiff. Er, what are they, exactly? And does autorazing incur the same penalty?

 

[Tech Step]

Grotius.

Autorazing does get the same penalty.

 

[civ_steve]

Bamspeedy wrote an article on what factors impact the AI's attitude to you - I've placed a link to it, and other GOTM useful Strategy Articles, in the GOTM Reference Thread.

I've not concerned myself too much about the diplomatic impacts of razing (auto or by choice) captured enemy cities. The AI will almost always take cash, so a big treasury is one way around that issue. And I'm the one usually selling them Techs - if they can afford a gpt deal at all, they'll make it, even if their attitude towards me is poor.

 

[CdB]

Originally posted by ainwood
Well, there's a 1 in 800 chance each turn of each iron being 'lost', in which case it reappears somewhere else.

Well I re-declared war to Persia to grab their Iron City to just notice that the next year Iron jumped to my territory
Lucky Break.

 

[CdB]

Open
I would like to go for the 100K culture or at least to maximize culture.

QSC cut-off : A slow start
I start building on the site loosing the opportunity to build up a decent settler factory by moving the settler on square. On the other hand as it proves the land does not allow much place to settled I would rather pop settlers as it comes from cities.
I started research on writing (40 turns) on the way to MM in order to build the lighthouse. In retrospect, I should have gone directly towards Monarchy taking in account the religious trait allowing many revolts.
3000 BC – I met Persia trading with them Bronze Working / Masonry vs Alphabet & Ceremonial & 59 GP. My second city is founded on the E shores the next turn.
2150 BC – I am sure I am trapped with Persia on the same island. This is not looking too good. They trade to me Warrior Code / IW vs Writing & 1 GPT & 113 GP and I can see that I have no iron on my territory despite settling a town in the middle of the Himalayas to be sure to max chances. This is now looking very bad. Facing Immortals vs Archers and Spears is going to be a bloodbath. I need urgently to spot the Horse so despite my early plans, I search full speed The Wheel while giving time for Persia to search Pottery for me.
1725 BC – Damn, I do not have any horse around. This is . To top this, Persia has not got Pottery so I need to research by myself at full speed it is a mere 6 turns but still. Then I can go on searching MM
1000 BC – MM is next turn so I could start to build some galleys although Persia has it already so I suspect they met someone. I have 7 towns with 6 temples & 2 rax. Persia has 8 towns but has no more room to build some. Second good news is that we are strong vs Persia with 6 Wa & 7 Arc & 3 Spear so we can be even stronger. I am roading to the South with one worker so that the war would not suffer from too slow reinforcements. Second worker is improving and roading in the main core. My objectives are simple

1. More army. I need Maths so that I can build some cats that I will mostly need to fight immortals
2. Explore the world with galleys
3. Build the Great Lighthouse
4. More workers
5. 4 more towns to cover this north island
   [/list=1]
   But with 7 towns it is going to need some prioritisation.
   
   Turning years : First Persian War – Fake Civ#1 War
   510 BC – Persia just built the Pyramids. It is so nice of them .
   490 BC – Carthage completes the Great Lighthouse and Ottomans cascade to Great Wall. Oracle was built by Greece in 670 BC and colossus by Vikings in 1225 BC. Persia has Code of Law & HorseBack (I wonder why since they have no horses !) and I have Maths and still searching Polytheism.
   There is plenty of sea and I sure will lack the lighthouse for my galleys. They have no found any good spot to cross the sea / ocean safe. My capital is set at 10spt so it can produce archers / cats every two turns.
   
   
   
   450 BC – Strong Military vs Persia. I declare War because they were going to settle on Ivory on my north shore while I had a settler ready for this. It is a bit early to me as I did not totally ready. My army is 8 Spear and 15 Archers & 6 Wa. I am trying to avoid GA with Persia while using cats (only one for now) and mix of archers and spears against their regular immortals. I raze one of their city the next turn and will rebuilt it on the river shore.
   410 BC – Pasagardae is mine so I will have a nice passage for ships across my soon to be island… I play on defense since the Archer defensive shoot with a spear is a nice combo if you use hills / Rivers to your advance.
   370 BC – Persia is in GA but willing to go for Peace giving Worker & Polytheism & HorseBack & Code of Laws & 217 GP so I take it. I do not want to suffer from an onslaught of Immortals so I go for not benefiting from my research at 50% with only 10 turns to go on Polytheism. I want to settle more territory and grab a stronger force to go after Susa their Iron town settled on hills.
   350 BC – Civ#1 just landed a settler pair on my territory. Embassy first to spot that Civ#1 has Horses and Iron and Legions (They are lucky) I need to attack them because I do not want them to settle. IBT, lost a Suicide Galley… while trying to go south of my territory.
   Later spotted some brown borders … Lost a second galley while making contact with Civ#2 – Embassy and I need to build another galley.
   330 BC – I go for Monarchy in 18 turns at 90 %. Meanwhile I will settle more territory and build a bigger army. Back in 20 turns when I will finish Persia.
   70 BC – Make peace with Civ#1 for Literature & Philosophy vs 140 GP. Civ#2 supposed to be polite with me was not offering a better deal. I just figure out that Civ#1 galley comes through a passage that must be secure so I will take my galley up there to search. It is so simple … no. It is on my part to not have done it earlier.
   50 BC – I am in Monarchy. I will continue to research with a lone scientist. I am wondering if I should build the Hanging Gardens (6 turns) or the Great Lib (20 turns). I decide to go for the Great Lib in order to have extra science free. I will research with a Lone scientist from now on using cash for upgrade and rushing cultural building. I also move my workforce to mine around Bombay so that I will secure the Great Lib. I am late to Carthage by Currency / Construction meaning they must be in MA or searching Republic.

 

[CdB]

Originally posted by tao
Definitely always I aim for owning "my" continent. The "nice" feature of Persia was its aggressiveness. Asking them to "leave or declare war" had a high probabilty of them declaring war even when Xerxes was polite. Thus I did it twice when I had the chance to capture 2 and 1 settler. This was a significant setback for the Persians and a great bonus for me. Plus the reverse war weariness also helped.

I preferred to corner Xerxes to the south of the continent resisting to declare war without being ready = decent SOD stacks required to win. Xerxes had numerous of settlers waiting to be turned to slave in his cities anyway.

 

[AlanH]

Here's an interesting post script to my Ancient Age description. A couple of turns after I hit the Medieval era a NEW source of iron appeared in the mountains above Mutton Valley, and the one in Arbela that I had fought so hard for was still there! So now I have two, and someone out there has just lost their iron on another continent.

Iron seems to be fickle, jumpy stuff in this game!

 

[dojoboy]

Originally posted by AlanH
Here's an interesting post script to my Ancient Age description. A couple of turns after I hit the Medieval era a NEW source of iron appeared in the mountains above Mutton Valley, and the one in Arbela that I had fought so hard for was still there! So now I have two, and someone out there has just lost their iron on another continent.

Iron seems to be fickle, jumpy stuff in this game!

Identical to waht occurred in my game as well. Did you also happen to have a supply of iron early then it disappeared?

 

[mad-bax]

Don't you think this may have something to do with the way resources were selectively positioned?

The internal map generator tries to distribute resources fairly. In this game, part of the map was artificially deprived of two resources. Horses don't become exhausted, so they will never reappear.

With iron, normally when it exhausts it reappears near where it was originally. IMO it's because the algorithm that controls it looks at the map for the position that distributes this resource in the fairest way, which is usually the place that has just been deprived. In this game the algorithm will choose our starting continent.

Unfortunately, great though the map is, it does mean that some people get lucky, depending in the PRNG which dictates which iron resources deplete and when.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it's what I think until I learn otherwise.

Maybe artificially distributing resources that can deplete should be avoided in future games.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by dojoboy


Identical to waht occurred in my game as well. Did you also happen to have a supply of iron early then it disappeared?

Not that I was aware of. I couldn't know, of course, where the iron started out, but by the time I traded for iron working it was under Arbela. Since that's where a lot of other people also found it I suspect this was the specified location and subsequent finds in different places were jumps.

I don't think iron depletes unless you are using it, but maybe Persia just building a city on it was enough to start the RNG clock ticking, and you don't actually have to be able to build units using it.

I think MadBax has a valid point - our games seem to have used the subsequent resource jumps to even out the distribution and give us a second source. I wonder if the players who found it in the north were also seeing a second source from another continent rather than Persia's depleted one. However, I don't agree that we want to avoid this kind of game design. The lack of iron at the start of this game made for some very interesting new early game options. The fact that it jumps about a bit later is interesting, and may give some players a different perspective, but that makes games a bit different, not necessarily better or worse. I like it!

 

[grahamiam]

Originally posted by dojoboy


Identical to waht occurred in my game as well. Did you also happen to have a supply of iron early then it disappeared?

maybe this was a programmed advantage for all you mac players

 

[denyd]

I'm in the 1500's and the only iron on our continent is where it started out.

I just looked at the 4000BC save and the only iron on our island is in SW Persia when the game begins. The other iron sources that are being discovered on the island have to be coming from other islands.

 

[mad-bax]

Alan. I'm not advocating that selective resource location should not be employed - I like it too. I am just suggesting that resources that deplete could be deprived from the human player in other ways. Effort is put into removing random factors from the game, but this has introduced one.

For instance, a one tile mountain island near our start location with iron on it would have alleviated this random occurrence.

Anyway, I shouldn't be so picky. The map is fine just the way it is.

 

[Txurce]

Originally posted by AlanH
However, I don't agree that we want to avoid this kind of game design. The lack of iron at the start of this game made for some very interesting new early game options. The fact that it jumps about a bit later is interesting, and may give some players a different perspective, but that makes games a bit different, not necessarily better or worse. I like it!

In my game there was only one iron source, which never expired. Obviously this makes it hard to compare all games, but not to compare certain games Despite having found myself on the short end of the stick, I can say that I could care less. I agree that the scarcity of resources made this game much more interesting. I'd be happy to pay this price all the time - whether it be early with iron and horses, or late with rubber, oil, or uranium.

 

[SirPleb]

1.27

I want to echo what others have said - well done Ainwood! This is an interesting and fun game, thanks!

I started a bit late due to RL pressures this month. For the same reason I decided my goal would be domination.

Opening Moves

As I planned pregame I moved the worker to the mountain first, and when he saw nothing moved the settler E. That of course brought the cattle into view. Once again our seers-under-the-fog have amazed me with their accuracy!

I settled E of the start position. Delhi built warrior, warrior, granary (2950BC), worker, settler (2670BC), settler (2510BC.)

All worker efforts were focused on quickly making Delhi into a four turn warrior+settler factory. After producing the second settler in 2510BC it was at size 4.5 and ready to run. The first cycle began, producing a warrior in 2470, a settler in 2350, and so on.

Build Pattern

By the time Delhi built its first settler my warriors had explored most of the home region and it was clear that things were going to be tight. After mulling it over for a long time I chose to go for a ring 5 build. Yup, a crazy one

The one large drawback to a ring 5 build was that I'd have a number of good tiles near Delhi which would not get worked by any city at all. (Unless Delhi passed size 12 eventually, which I did not expect ) But I liked the city sites available in ring 5 more than those in rings 3 and 4, and I'd be able to get more productive cities than in the closer rings.

Ring 5 grew to have eight highly productive cities. Here's how they looked at my cutoff date for this thread, 570BC:

Most of my cities could produce 2 shields/turn from the moment they were settled. Since I urgently wanted workers, and since each city could produce 20 shields before reaching size two, I had most of the cities begin by producing a warrior and then a worker.

Between Delhi pumping a warrior every four turns and many other cities slipping one in before their first growth, I ended up with a lot of warriors. I didn't have any particular plan for them, they just seemed a good thing to do with the excess shields.

Barbarians

It is a long time since I've had so much early barbarian activity. Partly this was because there was no AI helping to suppress them of course. But I wonder if there was another factor at work. Perhaps that other parts of the world became filled more quickly? (And therefore that when a barb camp was to be placed somewhere, the game often decided to put it near us?) I lost a few warriors to barbarians and had a couple of close calls. But I had a lot of warriors to spare and it wasn't a big problem.

The barbarian camps were helpful. I was constantly short of money in the early game. I wanted to research as fast as I could and didn't have neighbors who could help with finances. In fact I was paying Persia for tech for a while. The barb camps made up the difference. Once I'd settled most of the start area and explored it all, I harvested a couple of extra barb camps in the tundra by moving warriors in and out before finally settling there.

Research

I begain by researching Pottery at maximum speed. Learned it in 3200BC and began on Writing at max.

I held off trading tech with Persia at first. I was hoping to find another Civ or two first so that trade prices would go down. That didn't happen of course. In 2350 Persia started researching a tech I had so I decided to start trading, getting The Wheel and Bronze Working from her. Darn, no horses in sight.

Persia beat me to Writing by one turn. I learned it in 1870 and started on Map Making. I should've known better, Persia beat me to that too. When she learned it in 1500 I bought it from her.

So I'd duplicated research with Persia twice. With Writing I thought I had a good chance to get it first because it wouldn't be valued as highly as usual. (Because it does not enable trading of contacts.) And with Map Making I used the same reasoning plus figured I couldn't afford a risk - if neither Persia nor I went for it, I wouldn't be visiting other lands any time soon. Oh well, at least I was able to buy Map Making at a good price since I'd invested a fair bit in researching it.

After trading for Map Making (and of course immediately starting to send out galleys whose adventures will be described in another spoiler) I went straight for Republic as quickly as I could. Learned Philosophy in 1325 and traded for CodeOfLaws in 1275.

In 1150BC I traded with civ#1 for Mysticism, Iron Working, Warrior Code, and Masonry. And in 850BC traded with civ#2 for Horseback Riding.

Learned Republic in 800BC and immediately flipped to it. I've stayed in Republic since then.

Traded with civ#2 to get Mathematics in 800BC.

Learned Currency in 690BC, and learned Construction in 570BC to enter the Middle Ages at that time.

Conflict With Persia

In 1475BC I had a difficult decision. Persia tried to extort 5g. A measly 5g. I normally wouldn't hesitate for a moment to pay. One little problem this time though. All I had in my treasury was 5g. And I was running a negative income. So if I gave in to Persia I'd lose something. And the only thing I had available to lose was the granary in my settler factory. Not a pleasant prospect

By that date I'd secured the north from barbarians except where I was deliberately farming them, I had what MPs I wanted, and I nonetheless had a number of spare warriors. I'd been sending those spares to block Persians from coming north to explore. As a result my southern border looked like this in 1475:

Though I had no spearmen nor archers, and I hadn't planned on war yet, warriors fortified on mountains seemed likely to be a good barrier. So I refused the extortion rather than lose my granary.

And Persia declared war.

This war was worrisome but worked out fine. I didn't try to make any gains. I just wanted to hold the border until I could end the war without losing anything and without diverting much effort from my planned development. I sent a number of additional warriors south for support (each warrior in the image above is a single unit - they weren't in the area for strength, just for blocking.) But I didn't divert any build efforts to support the war.

Persia lost a few archers and I lost a couple of warriors. Persia also sent one immortal north who killed just one of my warriors before I was able to negotiate peace. (At a slight profit ) And that was it for the first war. At its end Persia had just started her Golden Age and that suited me fine - that was as good a time as I could ask for her GA.

In 1150BC, a bit after the end of the war, I learned Iron Working and saw just what we were in for. (The word I used in my notes was "diabolical" when I saw that single source of iron.) The pile of warriors I had (16 surviving after losses to barbarians and Persia) were going to be useless unless I could wrestle the only iron on our continent away from Persia.

And there seemed little point in going for the iron, which was under Arbela as in most games reported so far. Even with a direct strike using galleys I'd need a bunch of archers to do it and I had none yet. Persian forces built in the meantime during her GA would be strong and my losses would be high. I decided to research toward Elephants as quickly as possible before dealing with Persia.

And so I had no further conflict with Persia in Ancient Times.

QSC

My status at 1000BC:
13 towns
3 barracks
2 temples
1 granary
12 native workers
16 warriors
1 spearman
4 galleys
187g in treasury

Miscellaneous

I popped one goody hut and it gave me maps of the area.

I tried to build the Great Lighthouse but didn't prioritize it heavily and it turned out I'd started too late. A Civ named Carthage (somewhere out there ) built it. I switched my wonder build to Palace for a while. But I didn't see a wonder I wanted being available soon and subsequently switched the build to a Forbidden Palace. It wasn't in a great location for FP (was on the coast west of the Palace) but it nonetheless helped my empire's growth and I think paid back the shields invested fairly quickly.

Assisted by her Golden Age, Persia built the Pyramids in 1200BC. Nice, another reason to plan her demise!