GOTM 31 Spoiler I - End of Ancient Age, Map of starting continent.

[ainwood]

edit2: I just left the cities empty and posted a strong unit next to it, waited for them to flip and then retook 'em.

Depending on the stage of the game (post ancient age to pre-nationalism), the other variant on this is to pillage roads so that if the city does flip, then the unit returned is only a spearman.

 

[denyd]

The only problem with pillaging, is without the luxuries coming in, medium to large cities are more likely to riot which increases the flip chance a lot. I find it's better to use artillery to redline all of the defenders and reduce the population. A size 1 town that was a size 12, will grow again quickly and the new citizens will be from my tribe, reducing the flip chance even more.

 

[civ_steve]

The only problem with pillaging, is without the luxuries coming in, medium to large cities are more likely to riot which increases the flip chance a lot. ...

I've seen posts where very experienced players have stated that rioting is nearly always followed by flipping. Hence my suggestion (which I got elsewhere) to activate the Governor in conquered cities to control the citizens moods. He'll starve the population down until it's controlled, and will automatically adjust entertainers as resistance is put down. No riots!! In GOTM30 I activated the Governor in all occupied cities and had only 3 flips the entire game, all in the Tokugawa island, BTW.

 

[smackster]

Had you made peace with the Iro (I like that abbreviation, much easier to spell )? When you're at peace the quelling of resistors is completely predictable. I.e. there is no randomness involved. Every garrisoned unit quells one resistor per turn.

Well kind of, they had been eliminated. I could of moved a troop there but it was kind of funny to see him resisting all that time.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I avoided flips by burning every city to the ground and sowing the land with salt! Bwuhahahahahaha!!!

Dont you take a big diplomatic hit from razing cities ???. Isnt it better to capture it then immediaetly "abandon city" ????

 

[Lord Jimbob]

Dont you take a big diplomatic hit from razing cities ???. Isnt it better to capture it then immediaetly "abandon city" ????

wouldn't that be nice? IIRC you get a rep hit (just as bad?) if you abandon a captured city that has fewer than 50% of your own civ's people. so no, abandoning the city after you capture it doesn't save your rep (and you don't get free slaves- 1 per 2 poplation).

 

[Dianthus]

Dont you take a big diplomatic hit from razing cities ???. Isnt it better to capture it then immediaetly "abandon city" ????

As LordJimBob says, you get a hit for abandoning cities. You also get a hit for starving foreigners. Note that this only affects the AI's attitude towards you (see BamSpeedy's AI attitudes article), I.e. how much he likes you. It doesn't affect whether the AI will trade with you. So, frankly, unless you're going for a UN victory, who cares?

 

[DJMGator13]

This is my 3rd official GOTM and the 1st that I did the QSC. Here are opening thoughts straight from my QSC, Followedby same highlights from my QSC. I am proud that I correctly identified the SW SW SW tile as wine from the initial screenshot posting and not another wheat as some had speculated in the pre-game discussion.

FIRST TURN
Moved Settler SE to G, worker mined BG. Settler sees wheat SE with another wheat SE after that. Potential city production at size 5 is +5f/+10S that is a nice Settler/Escort factory and leaves 2 BG and unknown resource for 2nd city.

A special thanks to Offa & his GOTM30 spoiler post for the settler/escort factory detail.[As it turns out Paris never reached size 5 because I was able to get settlers out before at size 3 &4]

3500BC - FIRST CONTACT & TRADE
I went with the 40 turn gambit on WRITING. I spy ENG scout, they have 1 city and are up 3 techs on me. Based on the 3 techs determine that they have meet another civ, too quick for them to have researched although a GH was possible. Score ENG 58 FRA 47.

3100BC - FIRST SETTLER
I build my first settler and start production on 2nd settler. ENG has 2 cities. F11 shows that I’m #2 Land Area. Score ENG 85 FRA 78

3000BC - SECOND CITY
Found Orleans W W of Paris. This allows me to micromanage food & shield between the 2 cities as I try to reduce waste on growth and completion turns.

2670BC
Paris builds 2nd settler.

2590BC – IRQ CONTACT – FOUND LYONS
Found Lyons N N NW of Paris
IRQ cautious, 25 gold, 2 cities, up BW & WC down Masonry
ENG cautious, 53 gold, 2 cities, up BW, Wheel, WC & Myst
IRQ will trade BW & WC for Masonry & 55g (IRQ now Polite)
Score ENG 117 FRA107 IRQ 102

2550BC
F11 reveals I’m #1 in everything except mil. service & annual income

2310BC - Paris settler => settler

2230BC - found Rheims

2190BC – I take lead in score for the first time. Score FRA 137 ENG 135 IRQ 128

2110BC – Trade ENG writing for Myst, Wheel & 120 gold. IRQ no money or techs so no trade. 2 Horses appear on map close to me.

1790BC – Found Tours

1600BC – A BAD YEAR
I lose an archer and a warrior against a barb warrior & horse. Have to change Paris from settler to pop rush another archer.

1550BC – Found Marseilles

1500BC – F11 shows I’m #8 Land area #2 pop #1 GNP & mfg good
Score FRA199 IRQ 198 ENG 195

1450BC – Found Chartes

1375BC – F11 back to #4 LA #1 pop, mfg goods, GNP, Approval, Production

1300BC – Found Avignon

1275BC – start a blockade to slow ENG settler from reaching one of the 3 horses.

1200BC – ENG founds a city my blockade was successful in protecting the horse – I will probably either culture flip that city to me or take by force later.

1125BC – ONE OF MY BEST TRADES EVER
I learn Philosophy (no additional tech so I was not the 1st to it)
I’m down IW, HBR & MM. I’m up LIT & PHIL
I trade PHIL & 158 gold to ENG for IW & HBR.
I than trade PHIL, IW & 10 gold to IRQ for MM.
So I pick up IW, MM & HBR for PHIL & 168 gold and still have monopoly on LIT .
Score FRA 268 IRQ 257 ENG 252

1050BC – Found Besancon

1025BC - Found Rouen

1000 BC – LAST QSC TURN
I’m #2 land area & Pop, #1 approval, GNP, Mfg good, Literacy, Income & Prod.
ENG has 7 cities, up CoL, down LIT, att is Polite
IRQ has 7 cities, down LIT, att is Cautious
Score FRA 291 IRQ 276 ENG 272

Final QSC Thoughts
Need to finish expanding south. There is a horse and a spice available. It appears ENG & IRQ have no horses. I could have 3 horses.ENG has an iron although it not hooked up. IRQ unknown on iron status. Neither appear to have any lux that I do not have or that I should have by the end of expansion. I'll switch Pyramid to Great Lib soon, odds are that ENG will complete Pyramid and I can capture it. Other civs are unknown but I am assuming that I am in the tech lead (with ENG) based on Literacy being #1

END OF ANCIENT AGE
800BC I build Great Lib.
190BC Switch to Republic
70AD enter Middle Ages with 15 Cities, 33 troop #4 Land area #1 Approval, Pop, GNP. Mfg Goods, Income & Prod
Score FRA 646 IRQ 494 ENG 450

I still have not been at war with neighbors. I am preparing for a horse to knight upgrade and a quick paint job for cities to my North. I’m thinking a nice shade of PINK is in order. Paris is just about to complete Hanging Gardens & Orleans has a great prebuild for Sun Tzu. I’m confident of obtaining both of these Wonders. The IRQ have been kind enough to save me the trouble of building The Great Lighthouse, The Oracle and The Colosus. All shall be mine before mid-MA. :ripper:

 

[Sabre]

Dont you take a big diplomatic hit from razing cities ???. Isnt it better to capture it then immediaetly "abandon city" ????

As someone else mentioned, I think the hit is the same. My goal is to reduce the world to a barren wasteland (except for my tiny corner) so what the other civs think of me is of no concern. As long as the wars go well, I'll never need to make any trade that doesn't involve a peace treaty and alot of techs. Whether my goal is obtainable is yet to be seen. A camping trip this past week has cramped my playing time a bit.

 

[Dianthus]

As long as the wars go well, I'll never need to make any trade that doesn't involve a peace treaty and alot of techs.

The AI will still trade with you when they don't like you. Just avoid breaking any per turn deals so they will continue to trade for gpt and you can raze/abandon/starve as many cities as you like.

 

[SirPleb]

1.27

I'm back, and going for a 100k culture win. What a surprise

Opening Moves

I decided to move the settler in the hope of finding a food bonus. If none was found, the cost of moving the settler from this game's start is minimal because the worker can begin improving the start tile and save a worker move.

Moving the settler W or SE gains a BG tile and stays on the lake. The biggest difference between these was Stone Wolf's spotting of wheat to the SE in the pregame thread. So I moved the settler SE and indeed there it was, thank you Stone Wolf!

Like many others I built a four turn settler factory in Paris. My initial sequence was warrior, warrior, worker, granary, settler. The first settler was produced in 2550BC and after that Paris of course produced a settler every four turns. I didn't see a way to squeeze a warrior into the cycle so some shields were wasted each time.

I initially mined the second wheat to get the settler factory running sooner. Later on I replaced that mine with irrigation so that another city could benefit from a bit of extra food every second turn.

Here's a screenshot at the end of my 2550BC turn:

You can see my exploration pattern in the above. The first warrior went north and kept going. The second warrior went east, then followed the coast in a semicircle and is currently recovering from an encounter with a barbarian west of Paris.

You can also see what my workers have done so far including preparing a path north to the wines.

It turned out that I produced the first settler barely in time. When he moved north and saw that English settler coming south I realized just how close it was. Phew!

Research

I decided to start with Writing at the minimum rate and to gamble on either trading for Pottery or not needing it.

In 3200BC I met England and traded her Masonry for Pottery + 61g. I like to trade Masonry early in the game - it improves the chance that a neighbor will build The Pyramids for me. I met Iroquois in 3100BC and traded them Masonry for Bronze Working + 7g.

I learned Writing in 2110BC and traded it for The Wheel, Ceremonial Burial, Warrior Code, and Iron Working. After learning Writing I maintained research at the maximum rate I could afford toward learning Republic.

In 1650BC I learned Philosophy and began work on Code Of Laws.

In the next few turns I traded for Mysticism and Map Making.

In 1350BC I was one turn from learning Code Of Laws when one of my rivals learned it. Darn. This was a bit unusual - the AI had researched Code Of Laws before Horseback Riding, Mathematics, and Literature - all techs with higher odds of being researched first. Oh well, I traded 12g to get Code Of Laws without finishing my last turn of research and began working on The Republic.

In 1050BC I traded to get Horseback Riding.

In 730BC I learned Republic and immediately revolted using the "big picture" and F1 key. I got a seven turn revolt, so when asked whether to revolt I said yes to see if I could do better and ended up with seven turns anyway.

In 670BC I traded to get Polytheism and Mathematics.

And in 630BC I traded for Currency and Construction to enter the Middle Ages, ending my notes for this spoiler.

Expansion

After Paris I didn't build another worker or settler factory. Exploration showed the available territory to be fairly small - it seemed likely that one settler factory could produce all the settlers I'd want for the expansion phase.

I didn't find any goody huts. I did encounter a number of barbarians and lost one warrior and 91g to them but it wasn't long until all land was patrolled and safe. As usual the AIs helped a lot in getting the barbarians under control.

Paris did nothing but produce settlers. Other towns didn't add any settlers but did occasionally produce workers.

I didn't think that building any wonders would be worth the cost and didn't try. I hoped that my local rivals would build the ones I'd want. Unfortunately a remote Civ built The Pyramids in 1200BC. No other wonders of interest to me have been finished at 630BC, my cutoff date here.

I decided to use RCP at distance 4 for my inner ring. Ring 4 had a number of good locations including some coastal ones.

At 1000BC I had 13 towns, 7 in ring 4, 3 in ring 8, and 2 beyond that to claim luxuries:

Rouen, at the bottom-left of the image, is of interest because I settled it via a galley. A galley I was sending westward from Lyons to explore did double duty, carrying a settler from Paris over to the tundra with the spices and ensuring I'd claim them before a rival got there.

At the beginning of the Middle Ages in 630BC I'd added five more towns including one captured from England.

QSC Status

At 1000BC I had:
13 towns
1 granary, 3 barracks, 3 temples
1 settler
10 workers (all native, didn't get achance to trade for any)
2 warriors
9 horsemen
3 galleys

Warfare

As far as I know all was peaceful in my world until I declared war.

In 1750BC the Iroquois extorted 27g from me - I paid it happily to keep the peace.

I built up my military slowly, planning to eventually attack England and then Iroquois. England would be first because she was weaker in culture and because Iroquois had horses available to build Mounted Warriors. England's lower culture (it stayed about even with mine in the early game) meant I'd be able to capture cities instead of razing. The Iroquois were a cultural giant early in my game as in other reported games.

While building up I used most military units as MPs to reduce the need for luxury spending a bit. Luxury spending was a bit of a problem because we had few luxuries.

As the discovery of Republic approached I decided this would be a good time to invade England - MPs would no longer have any effect in Anarchy nor Republic. I slowed my research of Republic by a couple of turns to squeeze out two last Horsemen before the revolt. In 750BC, with my forces at 14 Horsemen (9 of which had started their lives as Chariots), I declared war on England and attacked.

As I entered the Middle Ages in 630BC this war is still at an early stage. I've razed one English town (size one) and captured one.

Future Plans

I'll be a Republic soon and start building again. After taking all English cities I'll pause to research and to build up some culture. I'll attack the Iroquois after learning Chivalry, so that I can use Knights against their Mounted Warriors.

 

[Dianthus]

I'll attack the Iroquois after learning Chivalry, so that I can use Knights against their Mounted Warriors.

SirPleb, far be it from me to question the master (Yoda ), but why? Mounted Warriors only have 1 defence, so they're easy to attack. Just make sure you kill them before they kill you!

 

[SirPleb]

Mounted Warriors only have 1 defence, so they're easy to attack. Just make sure you kill them before they kill you!

True! My thinking was that I should wait for Knights instead of hitting them with Horsemen because:
o My loss rate against spearmen fortified in towns will be much lower. Because I'm going for 100k culture I have many things to build besides military units, so a good survival rate is especially desirable.
o I don't know how many MWs the Iroquois have. My military is said to be weak compared with theirs. I imagine I could take them with Horsemen but I'd probably lose a few - any MW I didn't hit first would very likely take out a Horseman.
o I don't expect it will be very long before I learn Chivalry. Roughly 25 turns I think.
o I have other useful things to do in the meantime, don't see attacking them as a high priority. (Aside from its beneficial impact on score of course )

 

[civ_steve]

... I like to trade Masonry early in the game - it improves the chance that a neighbor will build The Pyramids for me. ...

Another piece of great advice! I've usually held onto Masonry, looking for 2 civs to trade with; a tactic that definitely did not benefit me in this game! And like in your game, a far-off civ built the Pyramids first!

Good luck for 100K! We may have 2 players getting the new award this month.

 

[ainwood]

The only problem with pillaging, is without the luxuries coming in, medium to large cities are more likely to riot which increases the flip chance a lot. I find it's better to use artillery to redline all of the defenders and reduce the population. A size 1 town that was a size 12, will grow again quickly and the new citizens will be from my tribe, reducing the flip chance even more.

Fair points. But pillaging is a tactic that I have used quite successfully. If I have a knight sitting next to a city of size 6 - 8 and it flips give a spearman, I haven't really lost anything => I take it next turn. In the mean-time, I have't tied-up stacks or artillary, and I get the points for the citizens as well.

You could always pillage all roads except those that lead to your empire only!

 

[Karasu]

Great to see you back here, SirPleb!

Alan and Ainwood are already polishing the Eptathlon awards, and I have started regretting my choice of a 100k victory... well, at least I'm going to see the right way to do that!

 

[Offa]

1.27

I'm back, and going for a 100k culture win. What a surprise


In 730BC I learned Republic and immediately revolted using the "big picture" and F1 key. I got a seven turn revolt, so when asked whether to revolt I said yes to see if I could do better and ended up with seven turns anyway.

Good to see you back, playing a more sensible game after dealing with those stupendous AI forces in your HOF game. I hope you aren't planning to abscond once you get your 100k prize. It is a pity that you and DaveMcW aren't after the same thing.

This F1 thing for revolts strikes me as a bit close to the edge. I haven't used it, although that's because I never remember what to do rather than any high moral standards. I would like it to be disallowed though.

I see you built up an almost exclusively mounted army. I wish that I had too, as it it would have made later conquests a lot easier.

To achieve 100k, when do you start on culture? I see you had 3 temples at 1000bc.

 

[SirPleb]

I hope you aren't planning to abscond once you get your 100k prize.

I hope that's this month but I see there's competition for it (hi Karasu!) so I may have no choice

Actually, I plan to stick around either way. That's a rough plan though - subject to real life interrupts and to the urge to take a shot at beating Moonsinger's upcoming HOF game.

This F1 thing for revolts strikes me as a bit close to the edge. I haven't used it, although that's because I never remember what to do rather than any high moral standards. I would like it to be disallowed though.

There was some discussion about this after Qitai discovered and described it. The search function is currently off so I can't easily find those posts. IIRC the prevailing opinion in that discussion was that the anarchy interval really ought to be a fixed number of turns, at the lower end of the current range, and that in the absence of that this trick is ok because it at least moves us a bit in that direction. (Anyway, that's what I think, I hope I'm remembering correctly and that this isn't just my opinion.)

To achieve 100k, when do you start on culture? I see you had 3 temples at 1000bc.

The first thing I want is a lot of towns. Even totally corrupt towns are good, each of them still produces one shield/turn (after I stop using it to produce settlers) and that accumulates nicely, reducing the cost of rushing a temple or library there by the time I have the funds to do so. If there were no other factors involved in the game, i.e. if there were no rivals to deal with and no corruption and happiness considerations, my guess is that the most efficient approach would be to build nothing but settlers and workers until some fairly large number (over 100 I think) of towns were founded, then do nothing but build cultural improvements. As things are, allowing for other game factors, I build some cultural improvements before finishing wars and expansion for the following reasons:
1) To expand borders and to block AI border expansions.
2) Libraries and universities in productive cities to speed research, balancing this against military needs.
3) Temples and cathedrals in large core cities for happiness. (Usually not a factor but in this game, with just 3 luxuries available, I think it sometimes matters.)
4) In core cities, when there's nothing else urgent to do, might as well put the shields to use building cultural improvements.

One factor which suggests focusing more on early cultural improvements is the 1000 year doubling of culture. I don't think that is a large factor. When going for 100k culture, by the time the game is near the end it can be producing a huge amount of culture per turn, approaching or over 1000/turn. And that can happen in the 1300AD to 1600AD range. Building any particular improvement, say a temple, early in the game to gain a lot of benefit from the 1000 year doubling seems to me to be a drop in the bucket. It generally seems more important to use those early shields for expansion which will lead to a large number of cities and the associated big per-turn culture later on. But I don't know how to prove or disprove this and am not sure it is right. And there might be a tradeoff here vs. difficulty of expansion.

 

[AlanH]

Actually, I plan to stick around either way.

I hope that works out, Sir Pleb. We've missed your pearls of wisdom, both in the pre-game chat and in the later game analyses.

Building any particular improvement, say a temple, early in the game to gain a lot of benefit from the 1000 year doubling seems to me to be a drop in the bucket. It generally seems more important to use those early shields for expansion which will lead to a large number of cities and the associated big per-turn culture later on. But I don't know how to prove or disprove this and am not sure it is right. And there might be a tradeoff here vs. difficulty of expansion.

I'm going to borrow from and paraphrase the sort of analysis you did not long ago on the settler or granary first question. You may even have said this yourself in the past, in which case I apologise for my inadvertent plagiarism.

If you are a non-religious civ then a temple costs 60 shields. That would buy you two settlers, and that's two more towns, and two more opportunities to build temples or better. So assuming the space is available so that you can settle those two extra towns, you are better off building the settlers and delaying the temple. Because you can now build three temples instead of one to double. And three towns can build three times the amount of additional culture compared with one town.

 

[Karasu]

I hope that's this month but I see there's competition for it (hi Karasu!) so I may have no choice

Hi! Well, I really wish it were competition... but I have still a long way to go in this arena

Still, the Eptathlon is not a one-off award... I mean, someone may want to win two... making it a "14-athlon" (there may even be a public contest to find out a name for it ).

One factor which suggests focusing more on early cultural improvements is the 1000 year doubling of culture. I don't think that is a large factor...

I heartily agree, as I discovered just in this game by making (ehm...) the wrong choice.

I will post some details in the Middle-Ages spoiler, but my first estimate is that the doubled culture points will only contribute 10 to 20% to the final cpt.
Which is not negligible, of course; but the risk is that in order to achieve this, one abandons further expansion and finds himself with only the most expensive buildings left in the last 20 turns or so.
This, in turn, means that the cpt increase in these last turns drops significantly and there is no way to improve the final date.

The key parameter here is in my opinion the culture 'acceleration' throughout the game -that is, how many culture buildings can be built during each turn: in order to balance the very low cpt of the first 100-200 turns, it is vital to be able to keep it increasing at an increasing rate during the last ones.

But as I said, I will try to come up with some numbers for this discussion in the other spoilers.