GOTM 37: Pre-Game Discussion

[dmanakho]

The AI has lots of extra units on Deity level. When a hut is nearby they send a stack of units after it. If you see such a stack, you can follow them, and your scout should be pretty safe; plus you're likely to meet other civs as they rush over to clobber the barbs. Once the stack turns back, that means the barb hut is gone, so they head back for defense; the way should be clear then also (for now).

Good advice.... I will follow it...

Played my test game... got into 360AD and end of MA.. finally managed to get tech parity... I lack only couple of techs AIs have but i will get metallurgy in few turns to level even that.
Mounted Warriors rock... When i started my 1st serious assault i had Mounted Warriors and had zero MA teachs while AIs reached at least Gunpowder level...
I sent stack of around 30 MW to 12pop Babylon defended by muskets... I took the city with minimum casualties (retreat rate was great) and i captured great library and in one turn i leveled with most of AIs in tech .
So moral of this story is: Make sure your neigbour builds Great Library and capture that city close to the end of MA, you will get all the tech even past education in one turn.

 

[Xerol]

Yeah, I'm going to go for GL Capture definitely. I played a Monarch Game a few months ago, the Zulu had the GL but were quickly overrun by me + egypt, but Egypt got the GL city. I surrounded it with 8 quickly built settlers and rushed temples, libraries, and whatever else was available(i think i might've had colosseums) and flipped the city over. By this time the AI was in the mid-industrial(i finished Military Tradition and then set research to 0) and I rocketed to Electronics and switched a palace prebuild to hoover's. Being pangaea this was really powerful, as will all continental effects wonders in this game.

Given the chance to capture the pyramids over the GL, however, I'd go for the GL if the AI was really far ahead in tech(Early IA or farther) and I didn't have education(of course). Hopefully we'll be surrounded by peaceful civs with agressive ones outside of that, and the peaceful civs will get a lot of wonders. Not likely though.

 

[Butzull]

I'd been wondering about the effect of the restless barbs myself in terms of the minimal-military beginning. Could make for quite a few issues I'd imagine.

Mind you, the last GOTM was my first ever Emperor game (and happily win), so I've NO idea what to expect on Deity!

Butz. groucho

 

[Offa]

I'd been wondering about the effect of the restless barbs myself in terms of the minimal-military beginning. Could make for quite a few issues I'd imagine.

On deity level the AI are pretty good at dealing with barbs. They should only be a problem if we have an isolated start, which is admittedly pretty likely if Ainwood is in a generous mood.

 

[Roland Ehnström]

With an irrigated cattle and game I'm looking at +6 food? Which means I can work a forest forever with no improvement if I wish, or maybe even run a 3,3,4 food configuration to get units out too maybe. So I think that maybe a VERY early worker is not absolutely critical.

No, a very early Worker may not be that important (although I still think it is the best available option, and it is what I will go for). BUT from reading the rest of your post, I see that you are thinking in the same way that I used to do, that food is not all that important. Well, once again, what I have learned over the past few C/GOTM's is that food is ALL important in the early game. Shields are secondary to food until the end of the REX phase (~500 BC, of course depending on the map).

Look at it this way: With a Granary, 20 food equals a Settler. So if you are giving away one unit of food per turn by working a Forest rather than, say a mined Grassland, you are in effect killing one Settler every 20 turns. That's about 5 Settlers (5 cities!!!) you have lost by the end of the REX phase, by giving away ONE food in ONE city! Sure, you may have gotten a few more shields, so you may have a few more units, but that can hardly be worth five cities, and think about it: If you would have gone for the food and built the cities instead, THOSE cities in turn would have produced units (or even more Settlers, for even more cities!).

Food is growth, and growth is what the early game is about.

-- Roland

 

[Mistfit]

I always appreciate all of the helpful information on what is planned for the capitol but I've never seen anyone say what they do with their 2nd or 3rd cities. Are these always unit builders? Worker farms? What are you looking for for those cities? Of course the best possible spot settling but beyond that.

 

[Kuningas]

The starting position looks great! Probably (like many others) send my scout out two spaces to see what might be just in the fog, then settle in place. Irrigate Cattle, Road, then Chop Game.

Definitely build a 2nd Scout; after that, likely to build a 2nd Worker then Granary.

My thoughts exactly.

For research I start on 0%. I wait until I trade Masonry and Alphabet or Mysticism. I even pay gpt if necessary. When I have Masonry+Alphabet/Mysticism, I begin minimal research on Mathematics / Polytheism.

 

[Megalou]

... it should definitely be possible to have a round city placement if we are effective in the beginning and set up a 4-turn settler factory or the like. My core will be at distance 4-4.5 from the capital, unless I find that there is more room than expected, in which case I will consider distance 5-5.5. Distance 3 is very unlikely, because you will not be able to build very many cities at that distance, and I doubt that an "outer" ring at say distance 6 or 7 will prove very productive or indeed be possible to build at all.

After a couple of practice starts I have to go back on my word here. I believe it is more important to cram towns in at all kinds of available spots (using the cheap temple rush in corrupt towns). I also think that there is a great risk that the AI will interrupt your RCP in some way.

 

[krisk]

After a couple of practice starts I have to go back on my word here. I believe it is more important to cram towns in at all kinds of available spots (using the cheap temple rush in corrupt towns). I also think that there is a great risk that the AI will interrupt your RCP in some way.

That's exactly what worried me when I tried a few test starts -- that the AI seemed interrupt the RCP. I almost think it might be better to grab as much space as possible first, and then to complete the inner ring later, once the land has been secured.

I would also like to hear any responses to Mistfit's question: what do you all expect to be doing with your build priorities in the other cities? Mainly barracks and units in cities near the capital? Mainly pop-rushing temples away from the capital?

Also, what size stack of mounted warriors is reasonable to build up at this level before beginning a war with an AI? Is there a big difference between Emperor and Diety in this regard? (I ask because I remember reading about a SirPleb HOF attempt on SID using the Iroquois in which he recounted that his initial expectation for how large an army he would need for his first war proved to be a gross underestimate.)

And do you expect to be able to start the first war before the AI has pikemen? Or will we probably still be trying to build up a sizeable military at that point?

I'm sorry if these questions seem naive or too specific to be answerable. I know the answers will depend largely on how the map turns out. But any suggestions based on past experience with Diety level will be useful.

 

[A'AbarachAmadan]

I always appreciate all of the helpful information on what is planned for the capitol but I've never seen anyone say what they do with their 2nd or 3rd cities. Are these always unit builders? Worker farms? What are you looking for for those cities? Of course the best possible spot settling but beyond that.

Construction/Expansion
First city is settler factory w/ +6/4 food. 2-turn growth. Will share one of those food spaces. Will probably start scout/worker/granery since Goody Huts provide a 20% chance each of settler/tech and trading is critical.
Second city is settler factory w/ +2/+4. Will grow every 3.67 turns. If really lucky, will get another food tile to make it every 3 turns. Haven't looked at shield numbers, but will try to build warriors as part as settler pump with no barracks. Depending upon shields these two will also do workers.
Third & Fourth city are military 'factories'. First build barracks (or a couple quick warriors if needed), then hopefully mounted military.
Have to see, but soon thereafter a FP pre-build. If I can get another worker/settler factory I will. At least a third city for workers if I find another food tile. Be ready to adjust based upon world conditions. Ideally every 2 to 2.5 turns I'll be producing a settler and a worker.
Afterward, mostly military. No temples until I've started my conquests. I'll be packed in and won't need them for territory. I'll lose some cities to flipping during the wars, but well placed military and an elimation strategy counteract this well enough until I jump my Palace.
Due to level, RCP in small square formation if possible. Four at distance 3 on diagonals and four at distance 4.5 on N/E/S/W. Then four at 6, eight at 7.5 and eight at 9. Of course it never works out perfect. Depending upon map one of these 'rings' will be eliminated to reduce ring numbers. Maybe even 8 each at distance 3 and 6 if really lucky.

I tend to focus on getting four cities quickly and then pump out workers. I noticed the best players get workers out a little quicker so I've tried to get more workers out quicker. I think the goal is to be able to have every citizen on a worked tile and empire connected, but not so many there are extra tiles worked early. "Balance', Sensei said.

Research Monachy is first goal. Probably start w/ min Mysticism and try to trade for the wheel.

Military I want an early war w/ swordsmen to avoid a despotic GA, but as soon as I get Monarchy my Mounted Warriors will get into action. I will try to make them elite prior with barbarians. First great leader will find an appropriate spot for my new capital in the direction of most likely growth as soon as I get a core of cities. (I think it is only 6 (OCN/2) for this level and configuration based upon the OCN calculator I have.) Concern here is making sure I get to war before the AI gets too advanced and I can't effectively wage it, but I have to get big enough before I start with there large start and quick building capability. Pick the enemy based upon their strengths: If good in the AA wait, if good in the MA make it an early target. Also check what resources they are missing when you can trade w/ them.

Wonders None except what I capture or can build by Great Leaders. Of course, the early FP is a must in PTW.

Luxury Lots of this instead of MP.

Domination is always my goal.

 

[eldar]

There's a Deity SG going on at the moment (as the Romans) which is probably worth watching. A couple of things of note from there so far:

1. If there are two AIs duking it out, let them. It'll only weaken them and make them easier to hit later on.
2. Have spare Settlers on your borders, ready to fill in any gaps that appear.

Neil.

 

[Renata]

@krisk --

People did win on deity before RCP was so much as a gleam in anyone's eye. And they win in C3C. So I wouldn't get too upset if the city plan gets a bit skewed.

As for first war, I find it very very hard to attack before the AI have feudalism; I usually don't manage it. However, that doesn't necessarily mean you'll have to face a lot of pikemen. Outlying cities, for example (which are often all you're able to take in the first few wars on Deity, anyway), take quite a while to be reinforced beyond the first couple of spearmen. If you're just joining someone else's war, you won't need any more units than on emperor, I guess, but if I was starting a war of my own, I'd probably want half again as many.

One more note: pointy-stick research is a lot more effective if you raze the cities you take than if you just capture them. Yet another argument for having a few extra settlers about.

Your build plan seems roughly reasonable. Poprushing temples is a lot more feasible as a religious civ, certainly.

One more day to get my grubby little hands on the save! Yay!

@eldar -- That game is scaring me. I'm constantly surprised we're not dead yet. The people who've gotten the warring turns in that game so far have done a *very* good job.

Renata

 

[Roland Ehnström]

I had a dream about this game the other night.

In the dream, we were starting next to the Americans, and around about 2000BC, a volcano destroyed Washington! I even remembered to save a screenshot of the event.

Just too bad there are no volcanos in PTW...

-- Roland

 

[bradleyfeanor]

...but I've never seen anyone say what they do with their 2nd or 3rd cities. Are these always unit builders? Worker farms? What are you looking for for those cities?

Boy, that depends on a lot of factors, but I will give it a shot. City 2 will most likely be another settler or worker factory, even if we have very little expansion room. You can (almost) never have too many workers. Also, on deity level the settlers will not only be needed if we have lots of expansion room, but when we go to war. Deity AIs build up so much culture that I usually prefer to raze and replace rather than capture their cities (although there are exceptions). For the same reason, it will be unlikely that I build temples even though we are religious. You simply can't keep up with the culture of some Deity AIs, so it seems like a waste of resources to try. I may build a temple here and there: for instance, in order to claim a resource that I don't want to use another settler to get, or in a city that will consistently be 3 population higher than my other cities for many turns (if I can’t solve the problem with luxury acquisition).

If I am able to get a settler/warrior or settler/chariot factory (oh how I hope for the latter!) out of the second city, then the third city will likely have a granary also and produce settlers/workers (if we have the expansion room). If city 2 can't produce any military, only settlers or workers, then my third city will likely worry about a barracks and military first, and settlers second. Although Deity AIs are very efficient barb hunters, I am sure there will be at least some need for early patrolling.

Unlike A'AbarachAmadan, I don't like building regular units in classic GOTM, because getting elites vs. barbs and then an early leader (wonder) vs. an AI can be so powerful. I try to never build more than 3-5 regular warriors if I can help it, and I hope to find enough forests around to chop a few barracks into existence early.

what size stack of mounted warriors is reasonable to build up at this level before beginning a war with an AI? Is there a big difference between Emperor and Diety in this regard?

12 usually does the trick for me if I can hit them before pikes and I can get an AI to attack them from another front, although more horsies will be coming to join them as they are produced. If you can’t get rid of some of the AI’s bonus units by putting them at war with another civ, then more units may be required. And if we have to deal with Numidians or Hoplites, all bets are off! Having more than 12 horsies, so that you can wipe out the AI quickly, is certainly preferable, but not if it means you may end up facing more pikemen once you finally attack.

Unless we have tons of expansion room, I expect to make my first attack right after I get into a new government (if there is lots of room, I may not attack until we have cavalry). I will try to push the AI’s toward Republic, but most likely Monarchy will become available first. This will probably be very close to the time that the AIs get pikemen. As Renata said though, that doesn’t mean I expect to face many pikes. Hopefully, I will be able to find an AI that is poor (so he can’t rush upgrades), and I will be able to pillage his iron early in the war.

There is one other game option that I will watch for closely. If I see an AI that I think is weak, or that I think can be weakened significantly by wars with other AIs, then I will attack them very early. Pre 1500bc if I can manage it. However, in this case I will probably attack with archers or swordsmen and not mounted warriors, because I do not want a despotic GA.

 

[Tomoyo]

Hmm... Emporer, then Deity... Not a very easy way to start may GOTM career!

Restless barbarians...

At least it is a Pangaea, so the AIs will help.

It seems everyone is going for a total farmer's gambit. I am a bit worried about the restless barbs myself, so I think that building a warrior or two early will be helpful.

What are the Predator disadvantages?

 

[dmanakho]

Just finished a test game...
Imagine this, i had Mongols, Aztecs and Babylon as the closest neigbors and Rome was just a little bit further away. Scary, huh?
It was the most fun diety game i ever had and the 1st diety i played in PTW.
What can i say....
the more AIs get eliminated the slower research rate is, that means it's easier for human to catch up. In mid industrial age i had only 4AIs left, one of them with just 2 cities.
PTW diety is certainly easy comparing to C3C because human can rush wonders, but PTW armies are so weak the only reason to build them to defend and cover wounded units in open space.

And the standard rules apply.
Don't be afraid if you are way way way way way behind in tech. I do not recommend building Great Library, you will more than likely lose the race, if you get a leader then use it. If you can rush pyramids with leader - that would be the most important wonder in this game to build.
Great Library is better be captured in the late MAs (that's for AIs, you probably will still be trying to get your hands on feudalism).

Do whatever possible to get Theory of Evolition build.

Do not afraid to fight with cavalry against infantry, just make sure you have lots of cavalry and an army to cover retreating units. I noticed that with infantry cavalry has much better retreat rate comparing with rifles or muskets. It was my feeling i lost less cavalries attacking cities with infantries than i did when i was attacking cities with rifles.

Protect your borders well and i mean it. AIs see your weak city and start sneaky war when you less expect it.

Try to avoid RoP unless you really really need it. Diety AIs love RoP rapes.

When you asking AI for the MA against another AI and he asks for an astronomical GPT figure go for it. It will be worth it.

It is cheaper steal technology than research it, but make sure you have enough military. If you fail to steal then war is almost inevitable.

I hope those tips will be useful .

I have had a nice domination win in 1425AD and i hope to repeat this in GOTM37

 

[Roland Ehnström]

Thanks dmanakho, and congratulations!

-- Roland

 

[Megalou]

Try to avoid RoP unless you really really need it. Diety AIs love RoP rapes.

This statement should be qualified. When the AI first research writing the ROP possibility is very welcome. A "farmer's gambit" will still be in it's critical stage by then; you probably have little military. And if the AI moves into your territory, will you ask them to leave and how will that help? The AI don't want to ruin their reputation. In the later stages of the game when/if the tide is turning in your favor, the AI might try ROP rape. By then you should afford some defence.

 

[dmanakho]

In the later stages of the game when/if the tide is turning in your favor, the AI might try ROP rape.

This statement should be qualified...

"...AI might try ROP rape." should really be "...AI will ROP rape"

 

[Megalou]

They will not want to sign ROP with me by then.