Gotm20-Spain Pregame Discussion

[cracker]

If all of you only knew the true level of self control and discipline that it takes to sit back and say nothing during many of these pregame conversations then I think that some of you would have a different perception of the true challenge of the map maker staff role.

The problem becomes that I end up chewing on the back of my finger because I have something to say but I have to wait for someone (or someones) else to arrive at the conclusions and observations that I would like to make. In some ways it is like a huge version of Wheel of Civ Fortune and I have to just wait and see if Vanna, Pat, and the contestant from EastAnywheresville can figure out which letter to turn next if the lights happen to not be giving specific clues.

You all fascinate me!!

 

[Smirk]

I'm thinking I may find some good use for the UU in a counter-offensive role, they should fair reasonably well in attacking knights and other offensive units, and in great number (or lucky retreats) could take out the few defensive units the AI usually moves with. Coupled with their movement, it shouldn't be much of a problem at all countering any AI offensive. However a cost of 70 shields seems a bit extreme, for a explorer/swordsman.
Considering the great length they can move, and the retreat ability, they could also serve as an early strike role, and then a full retreat back to your cities to heal up.


As for exploring, I don't see how this could be possible, unless you play a really fast tech rate and for some reason there are tons of jungles in the underdeveloped continent. Which might happen in diety. Thats a bit of a long shot, and how valuable would it be to even explore a large area of jungles until you can get there and settle it, add to that you have to clear the jungles and then develop the area, all of this near to IA. It would be hard to get that in play to make use of it for any early victory.

Also I'm coming from a history of having never built an explorer, in any normal game. I once built a couple in a game where I started in the modern age, so that aspect of the conquistidor seems pretty worthless IMO. Although a unique and interesting mix at any rate.

 

[Bolan Longpants]

Although I didn't even finish the last GOTM (I'm still hoping I can make it before June) I'm gonna enter this discussion which is very enjoyable. Some people seem to see things that I don't see . It is very unlikely for the tile S-SW to be wheat because it probably doesn't have a bordering river. That tile is probably desert and because the green colour to the NE I'm tending to move my settler in that direction: on top of the hill. Question is should I move my worker first or move the settler first so I don't waste a worker turn.

I also wonder if any one ever investigated the disease behaviour when placed near/at floodplains on deity. I also have bad experience with settling on/near floodplains. About two months ago I started a deity game and placed my capitol on floodplains. When I reached pop2 my second citizen died because of disease. Does any one have any idea about the chances of disease when working floodplains on deity?

 

[cracker]

here as a custom version of the resources pack for Gotm20 with only smiley faces added to the high contrast resource graphics.

Since Smirk requested this personalized version, he gets the honor of writing the install instructions compatible with getting them stored in the proper place for both the PTW version and Civ3v1.29 version just in case anyone else decides that one of the other pre-existing versions does not meet their personal needs for the game.

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by Bolan Longpants
I also wonder if any one ever investigated the disease behaviour when placed near/at floodplains on deity. I also have bad experience with settling on/near floodplains.

I believe working the tile forces a random check to see if you get disease. The percentage chance is no doubt pretty low, <2% maybe, but if you have 5 or more citizens working flood plains, that could very well be five checks against that 2%. If you settle on a floodplain, then its safe to say you get at least one check every turn.
I have anecdotal evidence where I avoided the use of the floodplains and didn't settle them, and thus never got any deaths, but that doesn't mean it absolutely won't happen. It could be complex enough that if you work an adjacent to flood plains tile you get miniscule percentage chance. And then cases where I haven't worked the flood plains but did settle on them, and got deaths from disease. And finally, cases where I hadn't worked them, but they got worked the turn when growing and I got disease that turn. This final one seems unlikely by pure random chance, but it has happened (as in your case) so there might be more complex behavior involved.


It might not be that hard to test this, use that memory hack modder tool you can simply set the pop to some value, work some number of spaces, and just advance the turn till you get a death. Then continue doing this for some time... Maybe a 100 or 1000 iterations.



On another topic, cracker: My suggestion in the other thread was that I wanted to use those exact smilies and as a background layer, not these tiny ones in a smilies only image. Sorry for the mixup.

 

[Qitai]

Originally posted by Boyd

For the mathemeticians out there, is there a substantial bonus to delaying city construction by one turn so as to be beside floodplain wheat and/or desert incense as opposed to immediate city construction under deity?

Food is king in the beginning and a wheat flood plain gives 4 food without irrigation and 5 food with irrigation. Whereas a normal flood plain gives 2 without irrigation and 3 with. Getting a pop in 5 turn (4 with irrigation) compare with 10 turn (7 with irrigation) matters alot! That one turn move is easily recovered.

 

[LKendter]

Well I am at a disadvantge hear. Even with blowing up the picture I have NO idea what people are seeing that is causing the incense / wheat debate.


It looks like playing with enhanced resource pictures for ages is actually going to hurt me with GOTM. I never learned the art of finding the shadow pictures.

 

[Qitai]

Well, here is my take.

TERRIAN

Some analysis about the surronding.

1) The grassland to the ne, ne and ne,e are still unknowns with big potential.
2) Potential floodplain wheat at se, se (given this deity and I am sure cracker would not want us dead, I say it is!)
3) Potential incense s, sw
4) No immediate usable (food + shield) > 2 in starting position.
5) there is water to the west

Personally, I find 1,2,4 more important. Thus, I would like to see if there is indeed bonus grassland and flooadplain wheat nearby or even wheat/cow grassland!?

Further, as mention by earlier, unless you intent to settle immediately, moving the worker one tile will not affect anything. So, I say move the worker to the hill first to confirm (1) there is indedd wheat at se,se. (2) Check for potentials on the grassland. If there is even a bg there, move settler east and settle. Even without the wheat, a bg find is still very much valuable near shield deprive floodplain area.
(Looks like the best move is still moving to the hill)


TECHNOLOGY

As for catching up with research, having alphabet in the beginning has great potential. Depdning on who we meet, we can
(1) Research Writing at 40 turn
(2) Get Masonary and research mathematics
(3) Get Mysticism and research Polytesim
(I do not think granary is a must in a food abudant start thus getting pottery isn't a must as well)

Some forward note. Base on the article AI next research, my calculation shows that AI will not research alphabet until after iron working, horse riding and mysticism are researched. Similarly, maths is lower (afterMap) in the research priority and polytheism is even lower (After Code of Law and maybe after construction and literature).

(1a) If I hold a monopoly to alphabet on my continent. Since AI put a low priority to research alphabet, I will not trade it away. Instead, holding on to it and researching writing will probably be a better approach since the 40 turn gambit has a very good chance of success with that alphabet roadblock.

(1b) If there is no monopoly over alphabet, then it is likely the 40turn gambit will not pay off. In this case, I will go the safer route of maths or polytheism. Trading for Masonary or mysticism will be required for these.

(2) will allow earlier catching up with tech, espcially if you are willing to research at max. Research cost will be 24*8*1.67 ~ 321. That should be around 20+ turns. Potentially, this can net you a trade that gets you map making to catchup with tech for the first time (and losing it again after that of course)

(3) will be the safer long term plan with a 40 turn gambit. This can potentially net you everything necessary in ancient for middle age with the exception of currency and maybe construction. This maybe slightly late for map making trade however.

After the above, the key will be using a sucide galley for the sea merchant middleman trading. At 55% H2O, it may not even be necessary for a sucide galley. Exploring the high seas will be critical for tech catchup.

 

[hotrod0823]

I can't help but laugh at crackers post above. Can you tell most people finished GOTM19 early and are waiting with baited breath.

My question is - does it really matter in the long run what is to the SW. Some players will just find away to jump the palace away from the site anyway.

Honestly I still think the key for me is getting to the grassland to the NE and if there is anything to the SW I am sure I will get a settler there in due time. If it is that close why does it matter if it comes on city number 1 or city number 2. Bonus food on flood is great if you have the shields, if not all you have is big city with happiness problems.

Okay all I can do now is wait for the game then all our questions will be answered.

Hotrod

Maybe I will play predator just to be different

 

[Renata]

Originally posted by acivguy
Zagnut I think you only get disease if you are working the floodplain tiles. I set up a city with some floodplains in radius, but not working them (and no city growth). Then just held down space until the AD's with no disease. After switching to the floodplains i quickly got disease.

I've gotten disease when I was neither settled on nor actually working the flood plain tiles in the city radius, but only once. (I *think* on PTW 1.21, but it might have been PTW 1.14.) There may be a likelihood factor depending on how many of the tiles you're working, etc., but I don't think the chance is ever zero if the flood plains are in the radius. (Until whichever tech it is which eliminates the problem, anyway.)

Renata

 

[hotrod0823]

@Renata: I think it is a problem until sanitation and even then I think the city may need a hospital.

 

[Renata]

Originally posted by LKendter
It looks like playing with enhanced resource pictures for ages is actually going to hurt me with GOTM. I never learned the art of finding the shadow pictures.

LOL, well with my monitor at home (even turned up to maximum brightness/contrast/etc), there's nothing at all visible. So I never had an art to learn. I probably couldn't even have seen the disallowed graphics! Oh well, I guess I'm doomed ....



Renata

 

[zagnut]

You can be hit by disease even if the city is not located on the floodplain. In the practice game I am now playing, I located one square away from the floodplain. After some period of time I irrigated 2 floodplain squares. Shortly thereafter I lost 2 pop points in 2 successive turns to disease. However, that is all that I lost in the game. I am now at 390 BC.

I agree with Qitai that if there is a wheat square then the enhanced production will probably make up for any loss from disease.

 

[hotrod0823]

Disease will always hit on 2 successive turns. It would almost be easier to take if they took 2 pop point in one shot.

For that matter what happens if the city is at size 2???

 

[SirPleb]

Originally posted by Qitai
As for catching up with research, having alphabet in the beginning has great potential. Depdning on who we meet, we can ...

Nice analysis of the research options Qitai, thanks!

 

[Bamspeedy]

For those interested in probabilities of disease in floodplains, here is a study that Sumthinelse did.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40716&highlight=Flood+plains

3.2% chance (each turn) for each city that has at least 1 floodplain tile being worked, seems to be the analysis. Yes, disease hits on back-to-back turns, even if on the second turn you take all citizens off of the floodplain tiles. If you are at size 2 when disease hits the first time, you will only lose 1 citizen (unless you gained a citizen on the same turn-like by joining a worker or something), because disease can't hit a size 1 town.

And there is a bug in PTW 1.14 (maybe still exists in 1.21?) in that disease from floodplains stops happening when you get engineering.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Bamspeedy, where did you get that first image? It doesn't look like the official one (look at the forests!):

You are right.

I got my screenshots mixed up when I had so many paint windows opened up at the same time, trying to compare all the different screenshots, being on the internet and having the editor and PTW all running at the same time!

But forests often get changed depending on the surrounding terrain and possibly what hemisphere you are in. (in my test case, I was in the far northwest). I think the water (being on an island) changed the forest looks.

 

[Dynamic]

Originally posted by Ribannah
Dynamic, did you use the new graphics for your testshot?

No, I didn't use the new graphics.

 

[cracker]

Just and FYI and a reminder that the new resource graphics will not work properly outside of the Gotm20 game just as other resource graphics will not work properly inside the Gotm20 game.

You must use one of the approved options to play the game with blissful enjoyment of all the designed in game features.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by scubagtr
Moonsinger,

Do you usually build your cities with just one space between them?

No, that style usually goes to Bamspeedy. Since it seems to work out so nice for him (because he previously outscored me pretty much at any point of the game), I'm trying to copy his style this time.