Gotm24-Korea Speculation thread

[King Of America]

Tone--

When you build a Wonder that fits one of your two traits, a GA can be triggered. Why this happens, I don't know. In one Tourney Game, I got a GA much earlier than I wanted this way. Worse things have happened.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by MadScot
Tone

That is how it works for captured wonders.

Essentially the game only checks to see if you are entitled to a GA when you build a wonder. At that point any wonders you control are considered in the mix, even if they were not built by you originally.

Which means even capturing all the Sci and Com wonders won't help us if we don't build a wonder of our own too, at some point.

Haha! Someone who understands this stuff. Great answer on captured wonders, now I just need to know whether I need a commercial AND a scientific Wonder, or will just one do it? King of America quotes anectotal evidence that one may be enough, but I'm sure I've read somewhere that two are required unless one covers both traits.

 

[MadScot]

AlanH

I believe you need to cover both traits.

What very much confuses things is the inaccurate game documentation which incorrectly identifies the traits associated with several wonders. I've been caught out expecting a GA, only to find that the wonder wasn't as I thought it was.

Could it be that KofA built a single two-trait wonder, thinking it matched only one of his traits, but due to screwed up game design it actually did match them both? If he tells us which civ he was, and which wonder, then it's possible the check the editor and find out for sure....

... well, as near sure as anything in this game, anyway.

 

[yorkie]

You will need both a Scientific and Commercial wonder to trigger your Golden Age.

As for GOTM 24 I would except to meet China, Japan, Russia, possibly America on separate continent.

 

[King Of America]

I built a wonder in the Ancient Age in the current Medal Game --France. I, er, actually don't remember which it was -- I built a lot, but as far as I can tell, no Wonder in that era (or any) is labeled as both Industious and Commercial (France's attributes).

 

[MadScot]

KofA

Yes, I just checked the PTW editor:

France is definitely shown as Industrious and Commercial.

The Wonders marked as Industrious are:

• The Pyramids also Religious
• The Hanging Gardens
• The Great Wall also Militaristic
• Hoover Dam
• The Manhattan Project also Militaristic
• The Internet all traits

The wonders marked as Commercial are:

• The Colossus also Expansionist and Religious
• The Great Lighthouse also Expansionist
• Magellan's Voyage also Expansionist
• Smith's Trading Company
• The United Nations
• The Internet all traits

So you are right, there is no single wonder that gives both of France's traits (until the Internet).

I did notice that (some) Small Wonders have traits associated with them. None are Industrious or Commercial, but I wonder if they can trigger GAs too? I've never seen it personally.

Moderator Action: Madscot (and KoA also),
Kudos to both of you for bring us back on topic - cracker
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

edit:
Apologies.

I guess what we're really trying to decide is whether you need both traits to be satisfied by wonders, or just one if them. Which could be pretty important for Korea, given that we have to use wonders to trigger the GA with a non-lethal UU.

I certainly have always believed that you need both traits to be covered, whether by a single wonder or more than one. My understanding was always that you needed both - despite the very poor wording "may trigger GA" in the documentation.

Personally, I feel that we will have to build two of the Korean traited wonders to get a GA. I simply don't understand why KofA got a GA with only one trait matched.

 

[King Of America]

My apologies if my example took the discussion astray.

Return to topic: The Korean UU cannot trigger an GA by itself, right?

One issue is "Can we compensate for this by building a Great Wonder" I say we can; others disagree. Apparently my example was not enough (I gave details to establish credibility).

There is always the Internet wonder, which always triggers a GA for a civ that builds it but hasn't had a GA yet.

Perhaps the more important question for this thread is "What, if anything, has Cracker done in terms of designing the scenario to compensate for the likelihood that at least one of our opponents can trigger a GA by winning a battle with their UU and we cannot?" Perhaps some extra luxeries so we can buy peace and/or quiet?

 

[ShiplordAtvar]

Well, isn't it possible that in the course of designing the scenario, the powers that be can give the Hwacha lethal bombardment through the scenario editor?

I clearly recall playing around with the scenario editor and giving modern ships & artillery lethal bombardment.

If this does turn out to be the case, then Korea will be much nicer to play as.

 

[mad-bax]

Personally I think the H'wacha will be modded to upgrade to ICBM for 10g. The Koreans will not admit to having either the necessary resources or techs of course and you might find aiming them a little tricky, with only a 50-50 chance of hitting the right country.

Also, any attempt at building a wonder will put a new improvement in each city called a Daewoo, which will have free upkeep and work much the same way as mass transit except it will double pollution and only work every other turn.

I don't think we'll get a GA in this game.

 

[FeelGood]

I`m guessing this game will be on regent or emperor because we`ve had some monarch and deity games.

Victory condition could be diplomacy because of the peaceful korea (or maybe conquest!!). Geography, 4 million years, cold, temperate with roaming barbarian.

Oppenents: Japan, China, Russia, Egypt, Arab, Ottoman ...

Maybe cracker wants to give us (especially some conquest players) the opportunity to get GA so that this game wil not be too hard!

About getting GA by wonders: The principle is IIRC -

You could get GA even with just one trait match with your civilization when you built.

When you build wonder that does not match with your civ`s trait but you have captured wonder with your civ trait, you could get GA.

Feel free to correct if I`m wrong

 

[BerzerkerJoe]

The intelligence agency states that the H'wacha can kill an enemy. Is this wrong? If it is true GA can be triggered in the usual way.

 

[pman67]

Has anyone besides me thought of the possibility that Cracker may be trying to teach us not to be too dependent on having a GA to win a game?

 

[mad-bax]

To trigger your GA through Wonders for this Civ you will need to be in posession of one or more wonders that together have the industrious and commercial flags set at the instant you complete any wonder you build yourself (either brick by brick or via a leader).

So you could for instance build the pyramids and then Smiths

OR you could capture the pyramids and smiths and then build any other wonder.

Note: capturing pyramids and Smiths will not trigger a GA by itself. You have to build a wonder afterwards to trip the trigger.

Yes the Intelligence agency is wrong. IIRC it was intended that H'wacha would be lethal, but the game designers decided it would create an imbalance in the game. So the lethal ability of the unit was removed.

So don't believe everything you read, including this post

Edit:
It would not be beyond the bounds of reason to change a couple of the wonder traits to allow the player more choice as to when to trigger a GA. For instance, making Leos a commercial wonder would not be beyond the bounds of reason and would allow a GA whilst the H'wacha was around and (minimally) useful.
If I were the game designer, the temptation to play with this decision making process would be too difficult to resist.

 

[Naboo]

I don't see that gotm necessarily has to modify to make GA achieveable via the UU. This appears to be one of the unique aspects of the Civ, and a point of interest in the game. Requiring the player to achieve GA via Wonders is not insanely burdensome and may likely expand playing styles for those who habitually choose the UU route. Sounds to me like just the sort of object lesson typical of these gotm (ok, I've only finished 3, so maybe I shouldn't be talking about "typical" )

 

[Sylock]

This will be my first GotM that I will play and submit. I usually play my 'regular' games as Babylon on Emporer level. It's not to hard to get a GA with wonders on Emporer. Remember that we are humans and our ability to do pre-builds, spy (investigate cities), and go with 'on the fly' strats give us huge advantages over the AI.

With that said, I think because of new players we will be playing at Monarchy level.

Being Korean I would imagine our terrain to be hilly, but yet fertile. Most grasslands, note there won't be many, would have bonus stuff on them. There might not be many luxuries without a little aggressive expansion, but there will probably be things real close.

I would love to see us surrounded by aggressive civs. We should be somewhat isolated, on a penisula. This makes it so we need to be strong, yet diplomatic at the same time. It seems like many people like to break treaties when it suits them. Unfortunately you usually don't get smacked for this as bad as you should. But if you are surrounded by strong aggressive AIs then a treaty break can be very bad. Thus, by surrounding us with aggressive civs without a nice UU you stress diplomacy.

 

[RowAndLive]

Personally, I don't expect the Hwacha to be made lethal for this scenario. To paraphrase an earlier posting, part of this is to learn while still enjoying. Certainly, making a conquest or dommination goal would not accomplish that. Something to consider is that the preferred type of win may be non-standard, i.e. the current "economic conquest" of the mid-month tourney game.

Given Cracker's comment on this being new, spectacular, astounding, etc., I would guess the following:

- A winter terrain game with plenty of mountains, and possible slower movement to fit. No settler factories.
- A peninsular game on a macro scale, with one or two large separate islands. If the resources were clustered ala 3 Million years, then much trading (or large scale conquest) would be necessary to get ahead in techs and production. Diplo would work well for this win.
- Opponents: China, Russia, US, Japan, England. Perhaps a new civ of Ainu or Inuit. How about a rival civ who is also Korean? Or
mostly Korean tribes, similar to the Japan scenarios. Inuit could work especially well in a winter terrain scenario. Perhaps add sleds as a tranport tech/unit?
- How about a game beginning later than 4000 BC?
- I expect modified resources, but certainly no olives. Perhaps pork/swine instead of sheep & goats? What about dragons instead of giant squid?
- How about going to single trait civs for a month?

I'm looking forward to it on any case. Hopefully I'll actually find time to finish a GOTM. Then again with scouts starting up...

I'm pretty sure that wonders for both traits would be necessary, but captured wonders would count. You'd need a new wonder build to trigger a GA, but not necessarily for your traits if you already had both.

Good luck to all!

 

[RowAndLive]

Given Sylok's comments about not being able to use the UU as well, and possibly surrounding us with agressive civs, then maybe a domination win WOULD be in order...

 

[Ambiorix]

I think Korea will be in an isolated location, either an island or a peninsula, with only one or two neighbors close by. That would make warfare impractical for much of the game, forcing the player to establish a small but economically strong empire, that would only surpass its meighty neighbors in the modern era.
It would also bypass the whole UU issue.
Anyway, would be interesting to see a game where even the top-players were forced in an inferior possition for much of the game, showing how to pull off a win if you only have a limited territory.

 

[ControlFreak]

Since MadScot went through the effort of listing all the Commercial Wonders but posted Industrious instead of Scientific I compiled the following list from the InfoCenter:

Lighthouse          Commercial
Colossus            Commercial
United Nations      Commercial
Magellan's Voyage   Commercial
Smith's Trading Co. Commercial

Great Library       Scientific
Theory of Evolution Scientific
Longevity           Scientific
Cure for Cancer     Scientific
Newton's University Scientific

So for Korea when a wonder is built, the computer checks to see if you have one of the Commercial (Lighthouse, Colossus, UN, Magellans, Smiths) AND one of the Scientific (GLib, ToE, Longevity, Cure, Newtons) in your possesion. You can capture one or both types but you don't get credit for owning them until you build your own wonder. The wonder you build does not have to be Commercial or Scientific as long as you have captured both types along the way, BEFORE building your own wonder.

I think we will be on our own penninsula with only one or two neighbors, but connected to a continent with China and Russia. I'm guessing that somehow, bombardment will become essential although I'm not sure what terrain would make that the case. Perhaps lots of small islands to negate the problem of cavalry always outrunning their artillery.

 

[denyd]

For those interested, there's a training SG going at the Emperor level using the Koreans. For those new the the Koreans, it's a pretty good place to get some background on their strengths and weaknesses.

Here's the thread address:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61461&pagenumber=1