GR17 - AWE vs 30 civs

[vmxa]

NP go for it, no reason not.

Tribute "Not even a slave? You've captured at least one by now."

We have many from JT's. I have not seen the save in a bit, but we have sight to see most of the area that is near us. We do not have that many towns or that much space to defend right now, so there is a limit as to where they can show up.

"It's the eventually part that gets me. And wouldn't it be sad if Spain were on your continent, and they survived to get Conquistadors? Wah! 'Mountain barrier==null' returns 'true'! We couldn't protect our workers because those silly Conquistadors were hiding behind the mountain range and used the AI skill of 'sight' to find our workers! Well, whatever. If you can get those towns and defend them well, that's better than outposts (range 4 vision), of course."

We always lose some workers to cavs coming out of nowhere, these maps are too large to prevent it 100% and still make progress.

Conquistadors are not my big concern, I am more concerned with WE and we know that India is here. Conquistadors are easy to kill, WE are not. Especially if we are behind in tech and we surely will be for time.

This range is in our backyard and if we cannot control it, we are toast, unless there is very little land on the other side.

If it gets to the point that units are coming in from a known direction, you can then consider placing an outpost strategically. To just expose all the range at this point would take a lot of workers.

One or two will not be all that useful, until you have a reason to put one in a certain location.

 

[Greebley]

Switching to FP sounds right to me too.

I think we should concentrate on India with them having the GLib. The mountains are thin in the north so we can continue to push in that direction. The biggest downside is that it makes our front longer, but this is worthwhile to get the GLib.


I tend to build outpost early myself, but not when we don't have enough workers to road to each town and keep most core towns working improved squares. Right now we are very short on them.

One problem with outposts is they often require a guard or the AI overruns them. They are therefore better along a road so that we can get a unit there easily if needed.

What we really need is an army or two. We were getting a few Elite victories on my turn so hopefully we will get one before too much longer.

 

[Northern Pike]

150 BC, end of turn

 

[Northern Pike]

350 (0): I declare war on Carthage, as we're obliged to do. One of their warriors is wandering around in the Kagoshima area.


330 (1): One of our isolated JT on a mountain defeats the attack of a barb warrior, producing a slave we won't be able to get home for quite a while (1-0).

The Indians complete the Mausoleum.


310 (2): Waxy Tongue walls --> barracks.


290 (3): Outside Waxy Tongue we impale a Japanese archer, gaining a slave (2-0).

Outside Tulum we strike down three Indian archers, gaining a slave (5-0).

We repel an Indian archer attacking Tulum, and gain another slave (6-0).

The Indians could have put nine units next to Coba with a good chance of taking it next turn, but instead they fall back.

Piedras Negras barracks --> swordsman.


270 (4): We cut down an Indian archer/warrior team next to Tulum (8-0).

The Indians complete the Great Library in Delhi. At least it's close to us.


250 (5): We get dyes hooked up.

Around Coba we slay two Indian archers, gaining a slave (10-0).

Near Waxy Tongue we dispose of two Japanese archers and a spearman, losing a swordsman (13-1).

Copan FORBIDDEN PALACE --> library (later HE), at a waste of 85 shields.

Dyland walls (lumberjacked) --> barracks.


230 (6): Coba walls --> barracks.

We're warned of a massive barb uprising near Lazapa, so our neighbours are probably in the MA.


210 (7): We found Uxmal on the river south of Copan.

A barb horseman perishes attacking one of our JT on a mountain (14-1).


190 (8): We crush an Indian stack of five--two archers and three warriors--next to Tulum (19-1). We claim another two slaves.

Next to Waxy Tongue we account for four Japanese archers, taking yet another slave (23-1).

Literature --> Mathematics, due in eleven turns. We need cats before the Numidians show up.

Tulum walls --> barracks.


170 (9): Around Waxy Tongue we slay another two Japanese archers and generate the GL Blue-Quetzal-Macaw (25-1), who immediately forms a sword army.

We slice and dice an Indian spearman outside Piedras Negras (26-1).


150 (10): We pick off a Japanese spearman outside Lazapa (27-1).

Our army tramples an Indian archer, and we’re able to start the HE in Copan (28-1).

Fifteen JT victories this round produced eight slaves.

Nine elite victories this round generated one Great Leader.

 

[Northern Pike]

We can attack Kolhapur with a substantial stack on the third turn of the next round, though our force will be short on swordsmen apart from those in our army. Alternatively, we could wait another three turns or so and attack with four or five independent swordsmen in the SoD.

I've left two workers with their movement, so that the next player can decide whether he wants to wait a turn and then use them tactically to link our road network to Kolhapur's (my preference), or just return them immediately to ordinary duty.

The barb horsemen are about to hit our southwestern cities, but we have plenty of units in the area and it should just mean more slaves for us, except that the situation at Dyland is delicate.

We're building a library in Calakmul to use the shields accumulated when we thought we'd put the FP there. We need a cultural expansion in that area, so it works out well.

I never saw a Carthaginian unit this round, after the warrior which required us to declare war.

Now here's a specialized question: can the attack of an elite JT produce both a slave and a Great Leader, or are they alternatives?

 

[Northern Pike]

The brewing storm:

 

[ThERat]

sweet, an army...

we got to be fast to take out India, before they get the horror phants

where is the GL? which city?

 

[Northern Pike]

In Delhi, which we haven't located.

 

[M60A3TTS]

ok, I got it.

 

[Greebley]

Looks good. I would have a settler or two so we can link up with the Indian towns. We can probably keep the smaller ones if we can send Javs to hold the towns and we can build a town between Colba and Kholapur.

I don't think India has iron yet which will make it easier.

Roster:
Greebley
NP - Just Played
M60A3TTS - Up
vmxa - On Deck
ThERat
markh

 

[Northern Pike]

I would have a settler or two so we can link up with the Indian towns.

Yes; I kept building settlers, and one is about to complete in the capital.

 

[M60A3TTS]

 

[M60A3TTS]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/43630/GR17_50_AD.SAV

Preturn: Looks fine.

IBT: 5 Barb horses die, and our forted JT in the mountains generates 3 slaves before they all get killed by another horse.

Turn 1 (130BC) Keep the army in place and bring up the JTs.

IBT: Barbs lose a horse, but pretty much leave us alone. They seem more interested in Japan.

Turn 2 (110BC) Get our first look at Kohlapur. Spear defending.

IBT: Lose a vet spear and sword forted in the hills, and only kill 3 barb horses.

Turn 3 (90BC) Bring up the JTs to Kohlapur for attack next turn.

IBT: Indian galley sails into view. Carthage moving some warriors towards us.

Turn 4 (70BC) At Kolhapur, army kills spear and elite JT kills reg spear and we have the town along with 3 workers. JT kills a red barb horse.

IBT: Barb horse dies giving us a slave.

Turn 5 (50BC) Watch as our army almost dies trying to kill a reg Indian spear in the woods. Ends up with 2hp left. I get it out in case of a flip. Kill another archer and get a slave.

IBT- Lose our curragh to what else? A barb galley. That’s all our losses so far for this set-from barbs. Three Indian archers die attacking Kolhapur. One slave from that.

Turn 6 (30BC) Trade the Japs a sword for their spear at Lazapa. Fryingpan founded in the east. Trade India an elite JT for reg archer

IBT- Reg archer kills a vet JT forted in Kolhapur. RNG ain’t doing us any favors.

Turn 7 (10BC) Kill a pair of Indian spears.

IBT- Collect a slave from 4 barb horse suicides against a forted JT in the hills.

Turn 8 (10AD) Sword and JT disperse a barb camp. Kill another Indian archer at Kolhapur.

IBT- Barb horses net two new slaves.

Turn 9 (30AD) Crud. We get the too many city messages when trying to settle. Looking over the city placement, I have to agree that the spacing in a couple cases isn’t good. Building two towns two tiles from one another shouldn’t be happening regardless of whether there’s a river or a resource at issue. For my part, I had too many settlers going, we now have 6 we can’t use right away.

IBT- India amphib an archer by a JT at Calakmul.

Turn 10 (50AD) Math in, wheel in 5. Fire up some cat builds. Army kills two spears and Bengal is captured. Bag a couple more slaves. Three Indian archers killed at the cost of a JT. The slave market has been pretty good this round although reg archers seem to doing ok against our JTs. And done.

May want to turn off science after the wheel comes in, anticipating that we will end up with the Glib. At least figure out where the horses are so we can upgrade some to knights. We are 8 units under the limit, so with the extra settlers we may want to raze and replace.

It may just be me, but despite a pretty weak GA, this doesn’t seem challenging when the AI is frozen with city builds. We will just do what we did before, eventually crushing them with cities and being agricultural makes it even more one-sided. The Egypt AW game was a lot more challenging, although we are naturally in the early stages of this one. Anyway, don’t forget to try and build a city each turn. 3 tiles SE of Kaminalwhat? there is a settler ready to plant.

 

[Northern Pike]

That sounds good. I'm not concerned that we might have too many settlers, since we'll need plenty for razing and replacing. Judging by the city names, we may still be many towns away from the GLib in Delhi, and it won't be practical to keep all of them.

It may just be me, but despite a pretty weak GA, this doesn’t seem challenging when the AI is frozen with city builds.

Well, when the city limit is a factor it makes the game even more front-loaded than it already is, which can help us or hurt us. It made a merely bad position in GR14 hopeless, for example. I agree that once we've got a decent core established the city limit makes our task easier, since we know how to adjust to it and the AI doesn't.

 

[vmxa]

That is why I moved the settler in my set, it was too close for a map that will not be able to fill. It make sense in a std map where we can expect to have to do a fair amount of fighting in the area, but the distances are too great on these maps.

We can expect to fan out enough to keep the early towns out of any confrontation.

I got it. Watching hoops now, will try to get it done before going to work tomorrow.

 

[Greebley]

I guess 60% water was a mistake - the city limit gets hit early. I was hoping it would be later. Agree 70% water worked out much better. Oh well.

Not sure if the GA was weak - sometimes an early GA accelerates your start and allows for a stronger position. You don't get science quickly or anything and don't have good infrastructure - but you make up for it with more cities and more units.

Its been tough getting a good random start. We tended to get Archipelago every time.

GL on the fight vs India, vxma. Maybe you can find Delhi.

Roster:
Greebley
NP
M60A3TTS - Just Played
vmxa - Up
ThERat - On Deck
markh

 

[vmxa]

Just to let you know I made a leader and an army on the PRE. Yahoo.

 

[vmxa]

I guess 60% water was a mistake - the city limit gets hit early. I was hoping it would be later. Agree 70% water worked out much better. Oh well.

Not sure if the GA was weak - sometimes an early GA accelerates your start and allows for a stronger position. You don't get science quickly or anything and don't have good infrastructure - but you make up for it with more cities and more units.

Its been tough getting a good random start. We tended to get Archipelago every time.

Yeah I do not envy you trying to get a good start and an interesting game. To me, I just want to have to entertainment. You are pretty much stuck with a early GA using Mayan in an AW.

I think we could use it, given the fact that we need to take down India quick or face WE.

 

[Northern Pike]

Not sure if the GA was weak - sometimes an early GA accelerates your start and allows for a stronger position. You don't get science quickly or anything and don't have good infrastructure - but you make up for it with more cities and more units.

Yes, the conventional wisdom about avoiding a despotic GA grossly oversimplifies the question. The long-term multiplier effect of doing even 20% better than normal before 1000 BC is enormous.

Vmxa, great news.

 

[vmxa]

Here is the save:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/42522/GR17_AD0150.SAV