Northern Pike
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GR21 - AWDG vs 30
- Thread starter Greebley
- Start date
I agree you cannot have a front line town without walls in this type of game. We are suffering for the lack of a good attacker and cats. At least cats would lets us win more often on offense.
Not having a 2 move units makes it hard to kill retreating units as we expose our units, if we follow up. We just don't know about the GLB, I am inclined to think it is not in the cards for any civ that does not start with Alpha in a game like this one.
It is so hard to replace losses right now with so many units to deal with and so few towns. Our best best is to get 2 armies in the next set or next two sets. We are about due, so maybe we will get a break.
We need to be able to go on the offense soon or risk being stunted. At DG the AI can keep the pressure on with units and research.
Not having a 2 move units makes it hard to kill retreating units as we expose our units, if we follow up. We just don't know about the GLB, I am inclined to think it is not in the cards for any civ that does not start with Alpha in a game like this one.
It is so hard to replace losses right now with so many units to deal with and so few towns. Our best best is to get 2 armies in the next set or next two sets. We are about due, so maybe we will get a break.
We need to be able to go on the offense soon or risk being stunted. At DG the AI can keep the pressure on with units and research.
I get an invalid link on your Attachment 175167 NP.
I was wondering if our lack of walls in Tikal was going to be a problem. We had some key cities missing some.
Agree on the GLib Attempt. This game is over if we don't get it, I think.
Agree on the GLib Attempt. This game is over if we don't get it, I think.
ThERat
Deity
I wasn't building one there as I was naive enough to think that we would settle beyond that point. A wonder city on the front is always bad as tiles get pillaged etc...but I know now that AWDG on such a map is murderous and every city needs walls.
I am not sure about being lost without the GLB, but if we do not get 2 more armies up soon, it will be lost. We have to expand and take down some towns or be over run.
Let me just postulate the likely research rates for the AI. You can expect that several of them are doing about 60 beakers per turn. You can expect about 25% of them to have all, but Currency and Construction done (of required techs) and probably close to finishing Construction.
They may or may not do Lit, but the second tier civs are going to be only 2 techs farther back and someone will do lit. We have no prebuild in place last I heard. No real place to do a wonder in any event. As was mentioned, pillaging could kill it.
We did have a fair start in that we are near the bottom of the map with water on our backs, so we do not have units coming from all directions. This also reduced our contacts some.
The only better location would be in one of the corners with water on one side or more, but not an island. We would probably need to have allowed trades on contact and then declare, but it would probably not do much.
The best we could expect is to get one or two techs, but that could make the difference. We cannot expect to get a lux and even if we did it would likely get cut.
It would be a boost though as we would get it going at some point.
I think Mayans are good choice. The only other civ that would be my pick is Rome. You would need to get Legions up, you get the defense as well as offense. It would mean no shot at GLB and needing Iron, preferably with a town on top off it.
They may or may not do Lit, but the second tier civs are going to be only 2 techs farther back and someone will do lit. We have no prebuild in place last I heard. No real place to do a wonder in any event. As was mentioned, pillaging could kill it.
We did have a fair start in that we are near the bottom of the map with water on our backs, so we do not have units coming from all directions. This also reduced our contacts some.
The only better location would be in one of the corners with water on one side or more, but not an island. We would probably need to have allowed trades on contact and then declare, but it would probably not do much.
The best we could expect is to get one or two techs, but that could make the difference. We cannot expect to get a lux and even if we did it would likely get cut.
It would be a boost though as we would get it going at some point.
I think Mayans are good choice. The only other civ that would be my pick is Rome. You would need to get Legions up, you get the defense as well as offense. It would mean no shot at GLB and needing Iron, preferably with a town on top off it.
Northern Pike
Deity
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That's peculiar.
I don't know why a proper thumbnail didn't appear, but I can bring the screenshot up just by clicking on the number.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Preturn- Well one fast mover through the back door and we may be undone. Pretty desperate straights, but epic stories are made of these Switch Copan to Heroic Epic.
IBT- 4 Incan horses approach east of Bonampak. 5 Arab warriors to the north.
530BC- Shift troops, no combat.
IBT- Incas start GW. Iro lose archer at Copan. Inca horse goes red attacking CI. The rest of the 5 Incans horses position themselves so they can hit CI, Bonmpak or Lagartero next turn.
510BC- 2hp jw at Tikal loses to red horse. Vet warrior kills same. JW hits one horse and it retreats. Reg warrior finishes it. Elite warrior hits another horse and he retreats. Vet JW kills a horse. Lose a vet JW to a reg warrior. Vet JW kills reg horse. 2hp JW kills red retreated horse. 2 more JWs kill an Iro and Vike archer by Tikal. Trade a JW for another Iro archer. Army kills Vike reg sword.
IBT- Incan warrior withdraws, horse attacks 2hp JW who wins and goes elite. 5 fresh Incan horses appear. Bottom line is were being bled to death.
490BC- Rush a JT in Jax. We will need all the help we can muster. At Calakmul there are 6 Iro archers, 5 vike swords and an archer in view. Kill vike spear by CI and get slave.
IBT- No combat. Our adversaries close in.
470BC- JT kills reg Arab warrior at Lagartero. JT Army gets 2 Iro archers by Calakmul. Vet JT under army cover bags another archer and nets a slave. Kaminaljuyu founded. By Tikal, 3 JW attacks result in 3 Incan horses retreating. Elite JT kill reg Arab warrior at Bonompak.
IBT- Vikes kill JT at Kaminaljuyu. Incans trade 2 horses for 2 JTs at Tikal. Arabs lose a warrior at Lagartero.
450BC- Army kills Vike archer and another slave. Single JT kill second vike archer. 2 more Arab warriors waxed at Lagartero.
IBT- 3 vike swords and an archer die, at Calakmul, but the defending army is lost.
430BC- Try two elite attacks at Lagartero, killing both warriors. No leaders. I decide to hold fast this go to allow some healing
IBT- More enemy now moving to pressure Calakmul and CI.
410BC- Throw 3 more elite troops into the fracas and pull 18 Rabbit out of the hat. No matter, the power graph confirms were on a one-way street to extinction.
IBT- Iro Mounted Warrior burns undefended Kaminaljuyu. Lose 2 defenders at Calakmul. Another JT lost at Tikal. CI attacked and defenders hold, but city riots.
390BC- JT kills drives off chasqui at Palaneque. Copan warrior comes out to finish. Army kills 2 Incan horses at Tikal. Elite warrior dies vs reg archer. Shuffle what remaining troops there are at CI and Calakmul.
IBT- Lose JT at Calkmul to vikes, another red JT in the open from Incan horse. Mounted Warrior threatens Copan.
370BC- Kill Incan archer by Quirigua. Attack Incan horse with elite and another retreat. Army finishes it, then adds Iro archer to the pile.
IBT- Mounted warrior killed assaulting Copan. Vike sword dies attacking Calakmul.
350BC- Kill Mounted Warrior north of Lagatero. Army kills Incan horse at CI. And done.
Post turn. Started with 18 JTs and we now have 12. But do we ever have slaves! 64 to be exact. The Incan horsemen have been the killer in this one. Every retreat has exposed a JT to another fast mover. If we do this again, I suggest linked starting cultural locations be turned off!
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Northern Pike
Deity
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Yes, it looks as though the MW will push us over the brink. If we do continue, I'd still try for the GLib in Copan.
Now I understand what Vmxa was saying, since M60's screenshot attachment doesn't work for me. Is it possible that JPG attachments are only working for whoever posted them?
Now I understand what Vmxa was saying, since M60's screenshot attachment doesn't work for me. Is it possible that JPG attachments are only working for whoever posted them?
ThERat
Deity
We might want to throw in the towel and try again. Maybe some of us can try a start and see where we get. This is how we succeeded with our AWD on pangaea.
Opinions?
Opinions?
Ya, I think this one is dead. Playing more would be 
or :suicide: or perhaps 
I was just going to suggest a choice from multiple starts. If anyone wants to try to make one, go ahead. Play 30-50 turns to a good stopping point.
I will try to start a new thread soon.
or :suicide: or perhaps I was just going to suggest a choice from multiple starts. If anyone wants to try to make one, go ahead. Play 30-50 turns to a good stopping point.
I will try to start a new thread soon.
Ok, so I gather we are tossing in the towel at this point. It will always be a very hard game with AWDG and 30 civs to face. I think the better way to go is to forget about the GLB.
We cannot afford the time to build a wonder and we must have cats and a better attacker. We could stand even a chariot to be able to pick off those red lined units and not be exposed.
A complete rethinking of the research order is in needed I would suggest. As you have seen Construction is already done and the GW is under way. The AI will have many civs with at least one wonder under way and will cascade to the GLB, leaving us out of the loop.
I know we could switch to the HE, but I think that is not as good a plan. We will get the HE with a leader that cannot e used for an army at some point and the shields would be better spend on units.
Better to have swords and cats or chariots, IF we have the resource. We must get lucky on the leader front as well. If we have the 3 armies up, we may have had a shot.
I wanted to ask why a curragh was built, but forgot. I do not understand the concept of making a ship to scout in an AWDG. Those shields need to go to units that can attack and we do not need to see land anyway. We are not going to be expanding more than about 8 towns for some time. After that most spots will come from taking down a town.
I am not even sure I like the expansion to the east as it was surely not going to be defended well. I do understand the concept that we need some buffer towns to absorb the pillaging that would otherwise occur, so I am not fanatically against it.
I just think the other direction was safer as we had not had units come from that direction.
We cannot afford the time to build a wonder and we must have cats and a better attacker. We could stand even a chariot to be able to pick off those red lined units and not be exposed.
A complete rethinking of the research order is in needed I would suggest. As you have seen Construction is already done and the GW is under way. The AI will have many civs with at least one wonder under way and will cascade to the GLB, leaving us out of the loop.
I know we could switch to the HE, but I think that is not as good a plan. We will get the HE with a leader that cannot e used for an army at some point and the shields would be better spend on units.
Better to have swords and cats or chariots, IF we have the resource. We must get lucky on the leader front as well. If we have the 3 armies up, we may have had a shot.
I wanted to ask why a curragh was built, but forgot. I do not understand the concept of making a ship to scout in an AWDG. Those shields need to go to units that can attack and we do not need to see land anyway. We are not going to be expanding more than about 8 towns for some time. After that most spots will come from taking down a town.
I am not even sure I like the expansion to the east as it was surely not going to be defended well. I do understand the concept that we need some buffer towns to absorb the pillaging that would otherwise occur, so I am not fanatically against it.
I just think the other direction was safer as we had not had units come from that direction.
My feeling is that it wasn't lack of shields that was the problem. Thus the curragh or the shields used in the GLib is unlikely to change the results. Simply pouring out units will lead to slower of science which would be deadly with no Glib. We weren't going to survive that onslaught with just Jav's.
Tech order I am not sure about. Replacing Javs with cats won't save you if there are too many units to handle.
One unfortunate thing is we don't have a good idea if we can get the Glib because the game didn't last long enough. With a good start it might be possible (but hard) to get Lit by 350 BC. That would mean the GLib by 150BC for a 10 shield town that had 300 shields around 350BC. Would the GLib have been built in the next 10 turns?
For this game with no iron likely, the GLib wouldn't have saved us I dont think. Long term though the GLib seems very important. It allows you to build many units and still get techs.
The lack of a Lux certainly hurts as higher Lux rate means later GLib.
I think it is true that winning AWDG will require luck. I think most random starts will be overrun no matter what you do.
So my feeling is to try again for the GLib. If nothing else you can fall back on the Heroic Epic which should get you the leaders you also will need.
Tech order I am not sure about. Replacing Javs with cats won't save you if there are too many units to handle.
One unfortunate thing is we don't have a good idea if we can get the Glib because the game didn't last long enough. With a good start it might be possible (but hard) to get Lit by 350 BC. That would mean the GLib by 150BC for a 10 shield town that had 300 shields around 350BC. Would the GLib have been built in the next 10 turns?
For this game with no iron likely, the GLib wouldn't have saved us I dont think. Long term though the GLib seems very important. It allows you to build many units and still get techs.
The lack of a Lux certainly hurts as higher Lux rate means later GLib.
I think it is true that winning AWDG will require luck. I think most random starts will be overrun no matter what you do.
So my feeling is to try again for the GLib. If nothing else you can fall back on the Heroic Epic which should get you the leaders you also will need.
I agree that you are not going to win, if you are facing more units that you can handle, that is a given. We have to plan on the presumption that we will be able to handle the flow, otherwise no sense in starting.
I also agree the GLB would make a monster difference in the game. The part that I am not convinchave ed of is that we ANY chance to get it. The reason I doubt it is that we are not going to be able to get very many shields into a pre.
We have no temple and no lux to help keep the wonder city at a decent size to build one. We will have to pump 20% or more into lux and side line a solid town for about 40 turns. That means about 12 JT's not produced.
It requires that we get the tech before the AI is able to get Lit and pump out a the wonder. We had no town with 300 shields at 350BC and I doubt we will have one. So 150BC is a moot point. Now if you can get to around 90AD with no one finishing the GLB, you got a shot.
We would need start at 1000BC to met the time line of 150BC, if we had a town able to start a pre and not run into issues. I am not saying it cannot be done, but I am dubious. A straight AWDG on std map, sure. I do think the 400 shields could be important.
If you could get 4 cats out by 400BC, you could be in a position to retreat units, rather than having to kill them with one move units that are likely to get attacked. I am not sure it would be doable and if it would make a difference either. Not by itself.
As to the curragh, all I am saying is what is the point of making them? What is the intention? To expose us to some extra tiles and how many times have we bumped into a civ? More than once, that is for sure. If it was not a 30 civ game, then I could see some exploring, but we will not need to explore. Not before we have 3 move armies.
We are not going to be able to build enough towns before getting in hot water to bother. We gain more enemies and lose scouting warriors, that could be doing MP duty.
You are correct we cannot just build units, we have to expand by taking down towns. We cannot do that with out armies in this type of game. So if we do not get leaders quickly we will be overrun. As you said, we are likely to get overrun in most starts.
We need a confluence of things to go our way. Good start location, good rng for sure.
I cannot say for sure if the AI will jump on Lit, but they were nearly done with the AA required techs, at least a few of them were.
The probability is that one or more would have gone to get Lit and if they do, they will build it about 23 turns at worse. Sooner most likely as some one would be forced to switch some other wonder.
Now if only the Mayan's start with Mason and Alpha, rather than Pottery. Anyway I am throwing out my .02 for you guys to shoot down. I am of course not positive of it, so it is just food for thought.
The big problem for this game is the middle ages will bring some nasty units to deal with that cannot be taken down with ease and more difficult defenders. We will soon be looking at pikes instead of spears. Such fun, no?
I also agree the GLB would make a monster difference in the game. The part that I am not convinchave ed of is that we ANY chance to get it. The reason I doubt it is that we are not going to be able to get very many shields into a pre.
We have no temple and no lux to help keep the wonder city at a decent size to build one. We will have to pump 20% or more into lux and side line a solid town for about 40 turns. That means about 12 JT's not produced.
It requires that we get the tech before the AI is able to get Lit and pump out a the wonder. We had no town with 300 shields at 350BC and I doubt we will have one. So 150BC is a moot point. Now if you can get to around 90AD with no one finishing the GLB, you got a shot.
We would need start at 1000BC to met the time line of 150BC, if we had a town able to start a pre and not run into issues. I am not saying it cannot be done, but I am dubious. A straight AWDG on std map, sure. I do think the 400 shields could be important.
If you could get 4 cats out by 400BC, you could be in a position to retreat units, rather than having to kill them with one move units that are likely to get attacked. I am not sure it would be doable and if it would make a difference either. Not by itself.
As to the curragh, all I am saying is what is the point of making them? What is the intention? To expose us to some extra tiles and how many times have we bumped into a civ? More than once, that is for sure. If it was not a 30 civ game, then I could see some exploring, but we will not need to explore. Not before we have 3 move armies.
We are not going to be able to build enough towns before getting in hot water to bother. We gain more enemies and lose scouting warriors, that could be doing MP duty.
You are correct we cannot just build units, we have to expand by taking down towns. We cannot do that with out armies in this type of game. So if we do not get leaders quickly we will be overrun. As you said, we are likely to get overrun in most starts.
We need a confluence of things to go our way. Good start location, good rng for sure.
I cannot say for sure if the AI will jump on Lit, but they were nearly done with the AA required techs, at least a few of them were.
The probability is that one or more would have gone to get Lit and if they do, they will build it about 23 turns at worse. Sooner most likely as some one would be forced to switch some other wonder.
Now if only the Mayan's start with Mason and Alpha, rather than Pottery. Anyway I am throwing out my .02 for you guys to shoot down. I am of course not positive of it, so it is just food for thought.
The big problem for this game is the middle ages will bring some nasty units to deal with that cannot be taken down with ease and more difficult defenders. We will soon be looking at pikes instead of spears. Such fun, no?
Curragh shows shape of land and find resources. In this case we didn't have any hills. Knowing the direction of a mountain range or knowing there isn't one can make a difference in when we get iron. Exploring more grasslands isn't going to be productive.
I feel a Curragh should only be built when it is likely you know your nearest opponents. Abandoning it is probably the best option.
Agree GLib prebuild must be early. I seriously considered starting it on the turn before my last one, but we needed 3 techs then with Alphabet taking a very long time. If we weren't going have near 300 shields with Lit we mistimed it (I don't know how many we would have had we may have been close).
Without the GLib you get Monarchy much later, have to fend of Knights with Spear and are going to take a lot more casualties in general. If a game is going to die because you took one town out of production of units for 300 shields, I don't think you have any chance later when totally outclassed in tech. Only if the extra units allow you to make large gains to make up for the lack of tech would you win.
Don't know any of this for sure of course as AWDG with so many civs is new territory. I guess my gut feeling is we won't win without the GLib and yours is that we won't get it. I am hoping we aren't both right.
I feel a Curragh should only be built when it is likely you know your nearest opponents. Abandoning it is probably the best option.
Agree GLib prebuild must be early. I seriously considered starting it on the turn before my last one, but we needed 3 techs then with Alphabet taking a very long time. If we weren't going have near 300 shields with Lit we mistimed it (I don't know how many we would have had we may have been close).
Without the GLib you get Monarchy much later, have to fend of Knights with Spear and are going to take a lot more casualties in general. If a game is going to die because you took one town out of production of units for 300 shields, I don't think you have any chance later when totally outclassed in tech. Only if the extra units allow you to make large gains to make up for the lack of tech would you win.
Don't know any of this for sure of course as AWDG with so many civs is new territory. I guess my gut feeling is we won't win without the GLib and yours is that we won't get it. I am hoping we aren't both right.
Yup, we agree we need it. I am only saying we are not going to get it ourselves, so lets try to use the shields for something else. Now if we were to see a lux we could get AND we have a hill in the wonder town, we could have a shot, a long shot.
I would say go for it then. If we were to have more time before we had 4 or more civs on us, we could have a shot, again a long shot.
I am still not sure I understand the value of seeing anything with a boat. we will be restricted to how far we can built out and in what directions. Scouting will not do anything, other than hasen contacts.
Knowing the shape of the land does us no good as we are going to be hemmed in anyway in all but one direction and maybe in all directions. Any resources will come to us over someones dead body, other than those that are very close to our start point.
Knights are going to be a major problem for us regardless, because will be out produced. We will need a means of killing them on offense, more than on defense. JT's will act like cats on defense, but on offense we will need cats and armies for a long time.
You can win games while being outclassed as long as you get the kill ration high. You are correct though, it would be a bugger without the GLB. It will be very hard with it. So as the Thing says, it clobbering time.
I would say go for it then. If we were to have more time before we had 4 or more civs on us, we could have a shot, again a long shot.
I am still not sure I understand the value of seeing anything with a boat. we will be restricted to how far we can built out and in what directions. Scouting will not do anything, other than hasen contacts.
Knowing the shape of the land does us no good as we are going to be hemmed in anyway in all but one direction and maybe in all directions. Any resources will come to us over someones dead body, other than those that are very close to our start point.
Knights are going to be a major problem for us regardless, because will be out produced. We will need a means of killing them on offense, more than on defense. JT's will act like cats on defense, but on offense we will need cats and armies for a long time.
You can win games while being outclassed as long as you get the kill ration high. You are correct though, it would be a bugger without the GLB. It will be very hard with it. So as the Thing says, it clobbering time.
Northern Pike
Deity
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An excellent debate. 
I'd like to make one more serious attempt for the GLib, just because I find it hard to imagine our winning at these settings without it, but after that I'd be glad to try Vmxa's approach.
I'd like to make one more serious attempt for the GLib, just because I find it hard to imagine our winning at these settings without it, but after that I'd be glad to try Vmxa's approach.
M60A3TTS
Ex-treadhead
Guess I have to ask the silly question, but where is the scenario for huge map with 30 civs?
