[NFP] Gran Colombia first look

[James_Champagne]

It's not quite my playstyle, but I will play Gran Colombia at least.....once......

Looking forward to clashes with AI Bolivar!

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd want to play AS this civ, but it certainly looks like it might be exciting to play AGAINST them.

 

[TheyMadeMeDoThis]

Fantastic! Increased movement for all u i its from the get go? Wow, the implecation! Looking forward to this one

 

[DWilson]

Fantastic! Increased movement for all u i its from the get go? Wow, the implecation! Looking forward to this one

Did they make you say that? (*Whispering* do you need help?)

 

[riddleofsteel]

Did they make you say that? (*Whispering* do you need help?)

I can't tell if his avatar is using blink code...

 

[Arianrhod]

Hey guys rate my leader ability idea

Indomitable - Gain +69 attack power at all times for all units except anti-cavalry

Feels balanced to me tbh, there's even a condition attached to it to make it interesting. You don't have to play as it if you don't want to, and lord knows the AI needs it to be competent, so there's really no downside to adding it. Even if there was, a little imbalance is fun, and they'd be better served by buffing every Civ to this level instead of nerfing this one.

 

[Navelgazer]

Alright, so this is pretty absurd.

Llaneros? Solid Unit, a little late, but very strong, especially in groups with a GG or CG. I love the visual design and the guitar strum that comes with them.

Comandantes Generales? Fantastic-looking, though luck based, at least.

Haciendas? Super-good UI, though I'd probably prefer a Mekewap for versatility and coming along so much earlier. Look to come out around the same time as the Llanero, so those production benefits will get use for sure (if you haven't already rolled everyone by then.

Campaña Admirable? Keeps you flexible in domination from the start of the Classical era. Plus free era score on top of it.

Ejército Patrioto? Oh right here's where it gets silly. What makes Nubia so good? Their ability to rush three-movement archers. Gran Colombia won't be able to build their own three-movement archers as quickly, but they can warrior-rush a neighboring Nubia while she's still researching Archery, and GC doesn't have the set-back of a top-priority desert start-bias there either (though they'll very possibly get a flat-land bias, which would at least balance things somewhat initially.)

Four-movement scouts mean getting Tribal Villages faster. It means meeting City States first. It means finding and clearing barb-camps faster, especially with the promotions not taking up a turn.

Three-movement settlers mean that you have more flexibility to pick the best tile for settling Bogota on. All of these are great Ancient-era bonuses that come into play before you even meet a neighboring Civ.

 

[Tiger Genocide]

looks like I better get a Gran Columbia game in quickly seeing how much desire there is for a nerf already...

Does anyone else think fighting this guy as an AI might be pretty fun? Hes prediposed to dislike you if you dont fight lots and he gets extra movement that will help with the AI's poor tactics.

Took em a while to nerf Scythia and Korea. We should get a couple of months to play with him pre-nerf. I doubt they will nerf him before release, but you never know.

 

[Atlas627]

So with the extra movement point all siege units like catapults can move and shoot on same turn? That's a significant "hidden" bonus.

Haven't read the whole thread yet but my initial reaction is OMGWTFBBQSAUCE! The +1 movement to all units is insane. Just for siege units, having +3 movement means they can move and attack the same turn without the promotion which is HUGE when trying to take a walled city

Sorry, why do people keep saying that Siege units can now move and shoot in the same turn? I was under the impression they actually have an ability that prevents it, not that shooting needs them to have 2 moves available. Have they changed that?

WOW!
When I was watching the first look, I was like "Wait, there is even more?"

But it's actually a bit sad:
- Greek's Hoplite? LLanero does it too, but with a better unit.

Llanero stacks with each extra Llanero. Hoplite gets a huge bonus for having ANY adjacent Hoplite, but it doesn't stack.

- Australia's outback station? Hacienda does it too, but better. (OK, not on desert tiles, though. It all depends on when it unlocks, I guess. Late UIs may very well be a bit OP to be worthwhile, in my opinion. after all, many suitable spots will already be taken by earlier improvements.)

Hacienda cares about Plantations, while Outback Station cares about Pastures. You can harvest most resources that would grant pasture spots, but you can't do that with plantations.

- Amonitore's Pitati Archers and Cyrus' leader bonus? Gran Colombia's UA grants this all the time (less movement, but without war declaration / time limit) and for all units.

Yeah, there is that difference.

And if this wouldn't have been enough, the is the UU - the even Greater General. At least, he isn't such a concern for me, because new eras are limited and the special ability will consume the general.

At least its different from a normal Great General.

I wonder if Carabobo is based on average promotion level or total number of highly promoted units.

The former would probably favour civs who only built a small number of units in the first place...

Maybe total level of units?

I don't have a problem with straightforward Civs. What is my problem here:
We have 3 kinds of bonuses in a game.
1. Unconditional bonus (no effort - no matter you do you earn it) - example: Gran Colombia +1 movement for all units
2. Conditional bonus (little effort - you must do something to earn a bonus) - example: Persia +2 movement for all units for the next 10 turns (limit) after declaring Surprise War (condition)
3. Conditional bonus with a downside (much effort - you grain bonus, but you are limited elsewhere) - example: Mali gold yield vs. production penalty

A healthy way of bonus reward should be like:
Unconditional bonus - minor reward
Conditional bonus - average reward
Conditional bonus with a downside - mayor reward.

If you get mayor reward from an unconditional bonus it is just unfair and bad.

I think the point of The Maya discussion was is the reward strong enough to balance its downside. In this case, we know there is no balance. We can only discuss how big is this power creep. And power creep is not even the biggest problem here. My main issue here is you get a top tier bonus without any condition and without any limit.

I agree with this, though I'm not even sure we can classify which things are major vs minor rewards. All we need to do is point out the other civs to point out the power creep. Major/minor sounds like we can put a number on it, but even just relative strength makes it clear that this civ needs either to have some conditions added, some nerfs given, or some downsides added. If they want to keep it straightforward and like the power level (how can you reduce +1 Movement without conditions? You can't...its the smallest amount of movement), then all the other civs need buffs. Which is probably true.

 

[PhilBowles]

Took em a while to nerf Scythia and Korea. We should get a couple of months to play with him pre-nerf. I doubt they will nerf him before release, but you never know

Didn't they nerf Korea between the reveal and release, but then needed to nerf it further after release? They did have more time, though, since Korea was an early reveal for a full expansion.

 

[Sostratus]

I was also thinking of scenarios where you avoid most early war opportunities with GC just like you can with Shaka. Just like in Civ5, Shaka does not get strong until he gets his Impis, once he does he is a monster. Since they can steamroll the map very well, sometimes waiting a little bit makes it easier than slogging through ancient era warfare with basic units. If that siege unit movement bonus holds at release, waiting for catapults might not be a bad idea at all. Why worry about loyalty pressure if you can take cities very fast, like the Ottomans can. Make two main forces and the map will be swept quickly

We don't have a good understanding of the Commandante "unique" passives. Maybe some of them are combat auras, some may not be.
I think in either case, as great as +1 move is, waiting for a classical GG to bump that to +2 will make them absolutely deadly when you combo with your commandante. The ability to engage from a concealed position or flank is unparalleled. Horses work well as they turn into your UU later, of course, but if you get iron swords are fine.

Sorry, why do people keep saying that Siege units can now move and shoot in the same turn? I was under the impression they actually have an ability that prevents it, not that shooting needs them to have 2 moves available. Have they changed that?

Stack a great general with a catapult. They can move and still fire. I don't think it's intended, but its been like that forever. (i think it has to do with the way conditional bonus movement works.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Hacienda cares about Plantations, while Outback Station cares about Pastures. You can harvest most resources that would grant pasture spots, but you can't do that with plantations.

You can also build Outback Stations on desert tiles and make them not worthless which is the way I usually do it. But yes between pastures and plantations the Hacienda does win in that regard if you harvest, which I normally don't.

 

[Caprikel]

Hey guys rate my leader ability idea

Indomitable - Gain +69 attack power at all times for all units except anti-cavalry

Feels balanced to me tbh, there's even a condition attached to it to make it interesting. You don't have to play as it if you don't want to, and lord knows the AI needs it to be competent, so there's really no downside to adding it. Even if there was, a little imbalance is fun, and they'd be better served by buffing every Civ to this level instead of nerfing this one.

Not a bad design, but I feel that adding a proper malus would balance things out. How about -69 attack power for anti-cavalry? That way it really changes your play-style to something much more unique and interesting.

 

[TheyMadeMeDoThis]

Did they make you say that? (*Whispering* do you need help?)

Hahaha no im genuinely just a civilitic whore

 

[Atlas627]

Stack a great general with a catapult. They can move and still fire. I don't think it's intended, but its been like that forever. (i think it has to do with the way conditional bonus movement works.)

That explains why that happened to me one time. Welp, busted!

You can also build Outback Stations on desert tiles and make them not worthless which is the way I usually do it. But yes between pastures and plantations the Hacienda does win in that regard if you harvest, which I normally don't.

Actually, I'd say this makes the Outback Station better than the Hacienda. If being self-adjacent is better than being adjacent to Pastures, then you can harvest the resource AND plop down an Outback Station. With the Hacienda you have to go around, and the adjacency to the Plantation may be worse than another self-adjacent Hacienda.

On the other hand, with the Hacienda you can feel free to harvest all of the Pasture resources and clear out your Woods/Rainforest, then place Haciendas everywhere. They both have different benefits, yay!

 

[Bechhold]

OP as ****. I mean holy...

 

[Icicle]

OP as ****. I mean holy...

I mean yeah. This is Australia tier broken.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

This is a very interesting civ design, and it’s taken me a bit of time to get my head around it. I think that pretty much every element of this civ could be a positive addition to the game in the right context. However, I also think that putting them all into one civ is mistake. It’s just too much with regards to power budgeting, and it’s also a missed opportunity with regard to including a mixture of simple and complex civ designs in the game.

Ejercito Patriota While the movement bonus has been pretty widely criticized, I’m glad to have it exist in the game. This sort of extremely simple yet massively impactful bonus makes for far distinctive and memorable civs than many of the designs we’ve seen. However, since it's such a powerful bonus, it’s important to balance the rest of the civ with this in mind. In Civ V, for instance, Korea had one of the strongest UAs, so the devs paired it with two UUs that, while distinctive and situationally powerful, also introduced major handicaps. Clearly that’s not what happened here. While the UU and UI are limited to some degree by their mid to late game nature, both clearly have quite a bit of power once they do come into play.

Campana Admirable/Comandante General This seems like by far the civ’s most unique and intriguing ability, and I think it’s a shame it’s been mostly overshadowed in discussions so far. Ironically, it actually reminds me a bit of Civ V’s Maya, though the order being randomized does make it quite a bit different. A lot will depend on the exact abilities, but I could see these unique great generals adding quite a bit of replayability/game to game variation to Gran Columbia depending on the order they appear and how you prioritize maintaining/expending them. Of course, this does make Gran Columbia something of an “advanced” civ, complexity-wise, so it might not be a good combination with the civ ability, which is much more straightforward and would otherwise have made for a good “intro” civ.

Llanero Possibly, the civ's least impressive element, design-wise, this is a UU with a lot going on, but little of it particularly stands out or has a clear flavor justification. The interaction with Comandante Generals is perhaps best with regard to distinctiveness, though civ/leader abilities that can’t function without one another still bug me, since civs and leaders really should be interchangeable if you’re going to go to the trouble of distinguishing their abilities from one another. If “singing warrior” is the flavor they’re aiming, for a culture ability of some sort would be much better, making for a potentially distinctive ability without adding too much power to the areas where the civ is already strong.

Hacienda A fine UI in its own right, but I really struggle to see how anyone could look at the rest of this civ and conclude it needs a spammable production and housing bonus. This is the sort of improvement that, combined with other abilities, would be a civ-defining feature, and adding it here just seems like massive overkill.

Agree. Ejército Patriota is insane. It’s Mongolia’s Ordu ability without the need to build a building. On top of the new great general ability, which to me is really cool and interesting, a really fun unit in the Llaneros and an amazing UI with Hacienda, I don’t see why they needed an ability this good. They have to nerf it in July. Maybe keep it to home continent? Make it apply to only non-cav units? force it to only apply in certain situations?

Hey guys rate my leader ability idea

Indomitable - Gain +69 attack power at all times for all units except anti-cavalry

Feels balanced to me tbh, there's even a condition attached to it to make it interesting. You don't have to play as it if you don't want to, and lord knows the AI needs it to be competent, so there's really no downside to adding it. Even if there was, a little imbalance is fun, and they'd be better served by buffing every Civ to this level instead of nerfing this one.

omg i love it. It’s ok, it’s still not as good as Korea so it’s not like it needs a nerf or anything? What? you think it’s overpowered? stop complaining and whining, it’s not that good because they’re such a late game civ.

 

[Pitohui]

Didn't they nerf Korea between the reveal and release, but then needed to nerf it further after release? They did have more time, though, since Korea was an early reveal for a full expansion.

I looked at the first look for Korea.The Seowon had +6 science.PLUS SIX. wtf?

 

[MrRadar]

Llaneros? Solid Unit, a little late, but very strong, especially in groups with a GG or CG. I love the visual design and the guitar strum that comes with them.

Keep in mind that if you not are wasting your time in the meanwhile, you'll be upgrading your fully and up to the brim promoted Coursers into those Llaneros the moment you get them and then merging with freshly trained LLaneros corps into fully promoted armies. For coup de grace.

I mean yeah. This is Australia tier broken.

I think it is closer to the vanilla Scythian Horse Market broken. Australia has some conditions. GC just play guitar as of turn 0, no limits.

Unless somebody is really good at redirecting those asteroids...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Actually, I'd say this makes the Outback Station better than the Hacienda. If being self-adjacent is better than being adjacent to Pastures, then you can harvest the resource AND plop down an Outback Station. With the Hacienda you have to go around, and the adjacency to the Plantation may be worse than another self-adjacent Hacienda.

On the other hand, with the Hacienda you can feel free to harvest all of the Pasture resources and clear out your Woods/Rainforest, then place Haciendas everywhere. They both have different benefits, yay!

Plus Australia gets culture bombs from pastures so theoretically you could build one then remove the improvement and harvest.

As for the haciendas we will see. Since they are geared towards a domination game, luxuries will be important so the amenities and possible addition of production for plantations will be beneficial for them.