Granaries worth building?

So far, I built a granaries in 2 of my games.
In both games, There was no maritimes next to me and I needed 2 scientists really early to bulb a military tech.
 
I dont get it. As a person that doesn't really like to play domination (omg what a noob) I find granaries very useful. Much better than spending a fortune on that hostile maritime CS.
250 for 35 influence that decays at 1 per turn is a cost of 7 per turn.

If you have seven cities with granary, that's also 7 gpt.
But apart from that, granaries are still useful. Everyone's moaning about maritime city-states being better, and that they kill granaries. That's just pure nonsense. Why not both? If you have the happiness to afford it, you can ALSO have granaries.
 
Building a Granary is effectively like hiring 1 extra population for 1gpt.

Through a large chunk of the interesting portion of the game, a city with a granary will be slightly larger than a city without one. If we examine the timespan where the granary-city is averaging a consistent +1 pop, then you have:

Granary:
+1 science
-1 gold
-1 happy
AND one of (
+4.5 science, +3 GS GPP (with library)
+3 hammers (with mine; repays hammer investment in 40 turns)
+2 gold, +2 hammers (with hill/tradepost; repays hammer investment in 60 turns and generates 120 gold)


Situationally, a granary is a pretty good investment. It's by no means an automatic build in a city, but in my games, I've had plenty of cities that benefited from one. Usually it's cities that were settled for luxury grabs. I want to work the luxuries, because they are nice tiles, but there's not much extra food available.

Yeah, dumping hammers into units is usually better, but if you are alone, then science is more important. The granary is essentially a science building.
 
If you have seven cities with granary, that's also 7 gpt.
But apart from that, granaries are still useful. Everyone's moaning about maritime city-states being better, and that they kill granaries. That's just pure nonsense. Why not both? If you have the happiness to afford it, you can ALSO have granaries.


It's the maritime city-states that will get killed in the next patch. Once the AIs actually start spending money on CS alliances instead of keeping 10,000 gold in the bank, there will actually be a competitive auction for their favor instead of just handing them to the player at the lowest possible cost.

If Maritime CSs are being auctioned at 20-30gpt in the Medieval Era (a fair price, depending on game settings) then granaries will look much more attractive.
 
Ok, so for everyone touting Maritime CS's...what do you do when your CS is punched out by another player? Now, you 've lost your investment in cash and your food. And that is not an uncommon situation IME...the AIs love to punch out the CSs (and so do the people I play MP with).

In addition, you can be 'out bid' for Alliance status (at the moment, the AI isnt big on that, but other players competing for the same CSs sure do).

I think Maritime CS's are a huge help, but I dont like to be overly reliant on them, especially in MP games. And I seriously hope they dont balance the game for single-player vs a brain-dead AI...
 
Ok, so for everyone touting Maritime CS's...what do you do when your CS is punched out by another player?

I take out the civ that conquered them and get a bunch of free influence on the way to world domination. Why would you go for any other victory on a difficulty setting that's high enough that you can't protect your city-states? :lol:

In response to a previous post somewhere about "why not get both," the answer is because city growth plateaus something monstrous in the low teens. If you have a few good maritime allies, the extra 2 (or four if you can get a water wheel) will help you get there a little faster, but once you hit that range they may as well just be an economy drain until you get hospitals, at which point you'll be getting 3-4 food per turn per city per maritime.

Again, they're not bad by any stretch; in fact I just played two games without city states and they were absolutely essential. But at most points you'll get much better returns if you can get cozy with a few maritimes, at which point the benefits don't really amount to that much.

Also, splitting the hospital into two buildings (aqueduct around Construction, and then hospital where it is now) as someone recommended and/or balancing out maritime to give a % increase would make both food-producing much more valuable, both relative to the other options and on their own.
 
Every other version of Civ had a linear growth rule. Yet another example of replacing something that worked with a bad mechanic. :( It wouldn't be so horrible if there was a way around it. In Civ3 you could fold in a settler or worker. In Civ1 or Civ2, there was WLTKD. In Civ5, which needs something far more than those games, there is nothing.

I would like to point out that food requirement growth is far slower than exponential.

Exponential progression is 2->4->8->16->32->64 and so on (in each step, you multiply the value before by your base), y(x) = b^x, and each step is b times more expensive than the last one.

Food growth cost increases in a different fashion, y(x) ~ x^1.8. The progression is 15, 22, 30, 40, 51, 63, 76, 90 and so on. If it were exponential, you'd never reach significant pop sizes at all.

Ok, so for everyone touting Maritime CS's...what do you do when your CS is punched out by another player? Now, you 've lost your investment in cash and your food. And that is not an uncommon situation IME...the AIs love to punch out the CSs (and so do the people I play MP with).

In addition, you can be 'out bid' for Alliance status (at the moment, the AI isnt big on that, but other players competing for the same CSs sure do).

I think Maritime CS's are a huge help, but I dont like to be overly reliant on them, especially in MP games. And I seriously hope they dont balance the game for single-player vs a brain-dead AI...

This is an important point but most players play SP and the AI doesn't really try to compete you out. If it did, its vastly superior financial resources would probably indeed make Maritime CS practically useless and granaries worthwhile.
 
the AI doesn't really try to compete you out. If it did, its vastly superior financial resources would probably indeed make Maritime CS practically useless and granaries worthwhile.

Wonder if it would be easy to change the AI to spend more on city states. Would be great if there was like a "AI_CITYSTATE_SPENDING = " line you could just adjust haha.
 
I take out the civ that conquered them and get a bunch of free influence on the way to world domination. Why would you go for any other victory on a difficulty setting that's high enough that you can't protect your city-states?

By that logic, who cares what you do? Use Maritimes, don't use Maritimes? Use or dont use Granaries...in the end, if you can so easily militarily trounce all the AIs, then it doesnt matter what strategy you use.

So again, I'm back to...please dont balance the game around single-player vs brain-dead AI. Yes, Maritimes are great, but they are that great only because there is no competition. If they heavily 'nerf' them, then when we have a competent AI or in MP games, they wont be worth the bother.

I seriously hope they look at fixing the PROBLEMS, not the SYMPTOMS and at the moment, I consider the Maritimes to be a symptom.
 
I think a lot of people are kind of looking at this oddly, like:

Food is really good!

+2 food in all my cities is amazing!

So maritime states are amazing! (this is true, btw)

...so granaries are bad!

The last step is the logical disconnect. Granaries are a good building. They are much less efficient than maritime city states. They are probably not worth building in your capital. They are probably not worth building when your cities are at some level of pop and are not going to grow much more relative to when you are planning to end the game (say, not worth building at 6-8 pop if you're planning to end the game with a domination victory at pre t200, or not worth building in a city that has very low base production and naturally high food that really wants a monument). They are also probably not worth building if it's earlygame on a high difficulty level and you need military immediately (note: I usually expand to 4-6~ cities early on deity and can manage a granary in all but my capital usually. Less if there's an early DoW.), but all that aside they're a remarkably solid building.

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Misc. granary example:

Build a granary early enough that you have had it for 31t before the 63 food step, or 38t before the 76 food step. The granary gives you this step for 100p (200g) and 1gpt. When you hit this step you get +1.5sci +3ppt (+6gpt), except it has maintinence so really +1.5sci +2.5gpt/5gpt. 100t later you're looking at +500g +150sci, assuming you build no other modifiers in those cities. This is a pretty neat boost.

Note: this math is not totally true, because the granary also notches up the food req for next step, so secretly you don't get this full benefit because you're hitting the next step slower. Except you kind of do because the granary contributes to this step too, so it probably doesn't apply till a few steps down the line. But you still get pretty close to this kind of math for a long time and I do not have enough time to work out diminishing returns now.

Note #2: If you get a few trading posts razed or lose a warrior because you did not have enough warriors to deal with barbarians, this stuff all kind of gets canceled out. Maybe you don't want granaries in all your cities vs. having enough early military.

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Also, misc. math on granaries vs maritime cs:

5~ cities, including capital. early game empire but this is when this stuff matters most. We'll assume you have 1-2 maritime states and your capital has been busy pumping settlers and building a worker or 2, so you don't have one in the capital. In other cities then, you're looking at 400p (roughly 800g value) up front and 4gpt for +2 food. This is significant.

A maritime state is 500g up front, and 1gpt. Assuming you're looking at 35 inf for 250g it's also 7gpt~. HOWEVER, it also comes with a lux resource, which is either not-unique and worth 200-300g/30 turns in trades, or unique and worth 187.5p up front and 4gpt~ (when compared to colosseum required to support pop assuming you need the happiness anyway. And you do if you're playing optimally.). So you get like 6gpt~+ from the lux resource when sold. Or more if you're using it instead of a colosseum if you mix in the up front hammers.

Note that also this is worst case for the maritime state - late game it applies to more cities and is even better. Also it goes up to 3! food later. Also patronage reduces the influence degradation by 0.25 which is really more like +33% influence per gold. Note that even hostile states are > granaries with any of these things mixed in.

Finally: Remember that maritime states being ridiculously amazing does not make granaries bad. It just means maritime states are better and you should understand how awesome they are and devote resources to getting them. Sure, the maritime states kind of overshadow the granary in terms of benefit, but granaries are *still good*. It's not a competition between maritime states and granaries, but getting your cities to grow while still working as many awesome gold/prod tiles as possible.

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TLDR summary:

Food is great!
Granaries are good! Mostly! (Exceptions: need hammers desperately for military early game. City is not going to benefit much from the +food from the granary relative to when you're looking at ending the game. (e.g., building a granary when you have 10 turns left in the game is dumb. building a granary when you have 50t left in the game but your city is going to take 25t to grow anyway is not worth it.)
Maritime states are ridiculously amazing!
Maritime states being ridiculously amazing does not somehow make granaries bad.

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Edit: Alternative potentially viable early deity option: Build just monument + library early, skip granaries, work less production and more gold/food squares, and then focus more on production a little later. I'm not sure how you'd go about mathing this out though.
 
Yes, maritime city states being good does make granaries bad because having a maritime CS as ally will reduce the number of turns the granary shave off your growth rate and therefore decrease the return of investment so much that they simply start becoming not worth building in many cases. I just did some analysis in the number crunching thread that is relevant to this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9762961&postcount=16
 
IF you can get some Maritime CSs, then you generally keep your food production as low as possible, otherwise you grow too fast and have happiness problems. With no CS do you build Farms, or do you get food buildings? It's easier to do the former, as you can develop the farms whiler building for gold, happiness, culture, production.

Not built a Granary yet.
 
Yes, maritime city states being good does make granaries bad because having a maritime CS as ally will reduce the number of turns the granary shave off your growth rate and therefore decrease the return of investment so much that they simply start becoming not worth building in many cases. I just did some analysis in the number crunching thread that is relevant to this thread:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9762961&postcount=16

This is a great thread, but: with maritime CS/granaries you do not have anything like +2f per citizen in terms of working tiles.

Also, realistic games on deity/immortal tend to be won or lost before many cities hit size ten. Often earlier.

To clarify: You want to work as many mines/lumbermills/trading posts as possible and the maximum you'll realistically get from a square is 2f, but often 0-1. I would be really interested to see similar graphs focusing on size 1-10 cities with each citizen generating average 1f at all times.
 
This is a great thread, but: with maritime CS/granaries you do not have anything like +2f per citizen in terms of working tiles.

Also, realistic games on deity/immortal tend to be won or lost before many cities hit size ten. Often earlier.

Good point, I should probably extend the analysis to f_c < 2. Could you post your comment in the number crunching thread again so I don't forget about it?

What's a "realistic" game for you? I know you can conquer everyone with a horse rush and then continue to destroy everyone with your superior army and cunning tactical skill as opposed to the lame duck AI but there's little fun in it, and I doubt it's the way most people play the game. I guess cutting the analysis at size 30 makes sense, though, as few cities grow significantly larger than 20
 
This is a game report I posted recently: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=390164

Games can go faster if you use horsemen/companion cav, or if you rush sci revolution for t100 riflemen, but most of mine are over by t200. I do tend to play tiny or small maps though. I think the important thing is that even if they are not over by t200 (going for a non-domination win on a standard map, say), they are still *decided* by t150~, and usually much earlier. I think I have some normal-city shots in that report, but especially early working a lot of mines and 2 cities with sci specialists is important, and it crushes your average food per citizen/you rely on granary and maritime CS more.
 
I think a lot of people are kind of looking at this oddly, like:

Food is really good!

+2 food in all my cities is amazing!

So maritime states are amazing! (this is true, btw)

...so granaries are bad!

Honestly, I've seen this posted more by people who like granaries as a way to discredit people who don't than from people who don't. The more nuanced, defensible reasoning behind not building granaries often has been posted several times already in this thread, and on this page in fact, if you wish to read it.
 
This is a game report I posted recently: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=390164

Games can go faster if you use horsemen/companion cav, or if you rush sci revolution for t100 riflemen, but most of mine are over by t200. I do tend to play tiny or small maps though. I think the important thing is that even if they are not over by t200 (going for a non-domination win on a standard map, say), they are still *decided* by t150~, and usually much earlier. I think I have some normal-city shots in that report, but especially early working a lot of mines and 2 cities with sci specialists is important, and it crushes your average food per citizen/you rely on granary and maritime CS more.

Neither tiny or small maps nor your strategy is what I'd consider typical (as in what most people play like) ;)

To be honest, I think by now few people are actually playing anymore for the win (at least not of the better players) because it has been shown that there are many quite overpowered strategies that lead to very early victories - but they aren't a lot of fun! I personally tend to play for a large economy, for example, not that I'm a terribly good player.
 
I guess it depends what your goal is. Personally I am more interested in knowing whether granaries are optimal in a powerful strategy leading to an early win than one that leads to a later large economy - but I *am* interested in knowing both. I honestly do think that an optimal early strategy makes any other kind of goal you want to accomplish later a lot more doable, though. But I mean, i'm sure granaries are a lot less optimal if you go for CS early and most of your cities are able to work a riverside or lakeside square. It's just interesting to know more context and learn more about how the game functions in x situation and such.
 
Neither tiny or small maps nor your strategy is what I'd consider typical (as in what most people play like) ;)

I doubt there is even such a thing as "typical" gameplay. A few of my coworkers and I frequently got into conversations about Civ IV that petered out in frustration as we realized that NONE of us were playing the same game.

Even with the exact same map settings/size/speed, I was happy to get 250,000 points and BC Macemen, and my boss was happy to build a Spaceship and not die.

I'm sure there are plenty of people out there playing Small and Tiny maps simply because that's what their current laptop can handle and, to them, Civ 5 is worth $50, not $500. I'm sure there are many others playing Small and Tiny because of time constraints. If you only get to play in 15-30 minute increments, just figuring out where you left off in a huge game eats up all that time.
 
I've built them in earlier games but I've stopped. Sulla's filler states strat or the ICS strat is so much superior to growing large cities that granaries are terrible, unless its your capital city. Even then, you could be building units.

The only place I'd consider building a granary is a forest and hill-locked production city. However, hills are actually pretty terrible in Civ 5 so I don't know why you'd want to settle near one that doesn't have luxury or strategic resources you would need.
 
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