Great Admiral buff ideas?

[Funak]

I tinkered around the idea of the Great Admiral's Outpost Improvement idea and theorycrafted based on existing concepts.

• +2 Food and +2 Gold
• +50% Defense Modifier(Haven't tested out naval units reacting to defense modifiers.)
• Unlike all other GPP improvements, this cannot be built over luxury or bonus resources (?)
  • Essentially, it's permanent since you can't replace this with other fishing boats and offshore platforms.
  • Doesn't imply that it can't be pillaged, it can be pillaged and repaired with a fishing boat.
• Can be built over luxury and bonus resources granting more bonuses than regular fishing boats (?)
• Probably earn bonuses if a cargo ship passes through it(Might have to test it out if cargo ships take into consideration of passing through outposts and if the database table even works for cargo ships rather than strictly to caravans)
• Grants vision within 4 tile distance of itself(great for artillery and aircrafts!)
• Provides +1 Food to all nearby water tiles.

Bonuses

• Navigation, Ecology, and Satellites grants +2 Gold.
• Dynamite grants +1 Food.
• Tradition Finisher grants +1 Food as inherited.
• Knowledge Through Devotion will grant +3 Culture and +1 Faith as inherited.
• National Treasure grants +2 Culture as inherited.
• Murano's Glassworks still grants +2 Food and +2 Tourism as inherited.
• Regimental Tradition provides +3 Science and +1 Culture as inherited. (?)
• Military-Industrial Complex should provide +3 Science as inherited. (?)

Is this really necessary?

I mean yeah I get it, this is a pretty cool concept but with it the great admiral have 4 abilities: Increasing strength, consume to heal, consume to get luxuries, and consume to build this. Most other great people have 2 abilities, and with this in place you know people are going to start complaining about great generals having no peace-time use or great diplomats having no use after all embassies have been built.

As far as balance goes, please keep in mind that you can't really build improvements on water-tiles, meaning this monstrosity isn't really compared to anything, in the way a Town is compared to a Village for example.

 

[HalfEmptyMug]

I mean yeah I get it, this is a pretty cool concept but with it the great admiral have 4 abilities: Increasing strength, consume to heal, consume to get luxuries, and consume to build this. Most other great people have 2 abilities, and with this in place you know people are going to start complaining about great generals having no peace-time use or great diplomats having no use after all embassies have been built.

I would assume this would replace the instant heal, no one here seems to use it and it makes naval balancing a bit easier not having to worry about abuse. I agree that the Consume to get Luxuries is more powerful than people give credit, but it doesn't scale like the abilities of most other great people. Once a warmonger begins to expand they'll have plenty of luxuries to satisfy themselves with not many willing to trade with them. Tall, peaceful Civs will get some trade and happiness buffs early on to spur growth, but once they begin completing policy trees they'll have plenty of happiness and gold to spare. Unlike all other great people who scale over time through more improvements, policies, and techs, the GA is left behind. They get a small buff from the finisher of Industry, +1 from luxuries, but that's it, they don't benefit from Imperialism's opener or have any tenets in Autocracy. GAs don't necessarily have to be the same as GGs or other Great People, but they should at least have something that gives them a bit more of a lasting impact.

I like the idea of an improvement, but even something as simple as allowing GAs to enter other Civs borders would help. That would make me really consider using them as explorers to help me found the World Congress and alleviate frustrations with the AI's stinginess for openborders.

 

[Funak]

I will admit that I do not play many heavy water maps, but really? People don't use the fleet heal? It's a crazy powerful ability. If great generals could instantly heal nearby landunits that's pretty much where all my generals would be spent.

 

[CrazyG]

I will admit that I do not play many heavy water maps, but really? People don't use the fleet heal? It's a crazy powerful ability. If great generals could instantly heal nearby landunits that's pretty much where all my generals would be spent.

My thoughts exactly.

This thread seems to asking, how to buff great admirals, but I think the first question that needs answering is do great admirals even need a buff?

 

[Txurce]

My thoughts exactly.

This thread seems to asking, how to buff great admirals, but I think the first question that needs answering is do great admirals even need a buff?

I never use the heal function anymore. Oddly, today I was thinking I wouldn't have minded having it one time. But I agree that they don't need buffing.

 

[Gazebo]

My thoughts exactly.

This thread seems to asking, how to buff great admirals, but I think the first question that needs answering is do great admirals even need a buff?

"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

99% of modding.

G

 

[Enginseer]

"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

99% of modding.

G

I should, I like the outpost idea only if the AI understood the sacrifice of their great admiral would create a naval citadel essentially.

 

[HalfEmptyMug]

I will admit that I do not play many heavy water maps, but really? People don't use the fleet heal? It's a crazy powerful ability.

It can be, definitely, but it usually requires you to plan around it, and if the AI does know how to use it then I'm not sure they can really do so effectively. I'd also imagine that since ranged ships (and soon possibly melee ships) can now move after attacking that this ability could become too powerful in the hands of human players.

 

[Funak]

"Yeah, yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should."

99% of modding.

And 99% of foruming is telling people to chill out, while trying not to seem like a wet blanket.

 

[Gokudo01]

I don't know if 5 people can actually be 99% even 90%.

 

[Enrico Swagolo]

How about just giving Admirals +2 of a luxury resource (as is now) AND +2 of a random strategic resource you have access to (like Horses, Iron, later on Coal, Oil)? It'd be unique enough. It could probably be left alone as it is now though.

 

[LukaSlovenia29]

Not sure what change I'd propose, but I agree with those saying that the Great Admiral is underwhelming. It's by far my least favourite great person, especially considering how relatively little are the benefits and how harder it is to get great admirals compared to other great persons.

 

[StevenV]

I would simply recommend to auto-create 2-3 artifacts when GA is sent to a Voyage, as a buff for GA. Actually, I proposed the similar for disbanding units in this post: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/finding-a-strategic-home-for-outdated-units.620262/page-2#post-14821449.
I think it is quite simply and easy to handle for the AI as well and makes some sense also

 

[Enginseer]

I would simply recommend to auto-create 2-3 artifacts when GA is sent to a Voyage, as a buff for GA. Actually, I proposed the similar for disbanding units in this post: https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/finding-a-strategic-home-for-outdated-units.620262/page-2#post-14821449.
I think it is quite simply and easy to handle for the AI as well and makes some sense also

mrw great artist/writer/musician only makes 1 artifact, but the great admirals makes 2-3.

Seems good.

 

[balinte]

I like the idea of a naval improvment.
What if a platform were created where you sent your GA to voyage? Does this even make sense?
If so maybe adjust the platform yields

Personally Id emphasize the defense yields
Maybe make it a naval "citadel" without the increased supply cap

 

[CrazyG]

Honestly if I were to buff the Great Admiral, I'd just make him cheaper. Naval combat happens less often than land combat, and you don't get many bonus points from city state quests

 

[balinte]

Honestly if I were to buff the Great Admiral, I'd just make him cheaper. Naval combat happens less often than land combat, and you don't get many bonus points from city state quests

The basic idea wasnt that the GA weak, but rather that if ur a peacemonger the 6gpt+ some minor diplo bonus doesnt justify a GP.
(Thats why I suggested a defensive platform)

Or maybe some GP are just destined to be worthless in a certain playstyle? And the GA stands out

 

[CrazyG]

The basic idea wasnt that the GA weak, but rather that if ur a peacemonger the 6gpt+ some minor diplo bonus doesnt justify a GP.
(Thats why I suggested a defensive platform)

How many admirals are generating as a 'peacemonger'? You still get luxuries for happiness. Raise the luxury to 3 copies if the gold isn't enough

 

[balinte]

How many admirals are generating as a 'peacemonger'? You still get luxuries for happiness. Raise the luxury to 3 copies if the gold isn't enough

Well, I usually end up with a few just by defending and little "help out a friend" or "prevent sy from getting too strong" wars.

And yes I get some happiness from luxuries but when im a peacemonger, happiness usually isnt my main concern for most of the game

But I can see that coding wise the 3 copies is easier and since its not a bad solution either Id be happy with that as well

I just feel like Its so hard to defend against an invading navy with a small fleet (especially on islands) and thought the GA might promote the soluition for that

 

[tu_79]

And 99% of foruming is telling people to chill out, while trying not to seem like a wet blanket.

It's human nature. Farther, higher, faster.

I'm always in favor of anything that improves gameplay. But it's not easy to know beforehand what will improve and what ll make things worse.