Great Engineer Farm

[Monsterzuma]

Is this a viable tactic on levels above Monarch?

1. make sure you run no GPP generating activities in any of your cities.
2. build the pyramids, the hanging gardens and a forge in one city; run an engineer for a total of 7 Great Engineer points per turn.
3. use the Engineers that are produced to excecute some brilliant plan that involves lots of wonder rushing.
4. Win.

Exceptions to step 1 are possible; for example using up one Great Scientist for an academy to make your supercapital function properly.

Any idea what the details of step 3 might encompass? How about... rushing a space race victory...?

 

[Zanttu]

I think building such expensive wonder as pyramids just for it's GE points is a waste. I mean, you get access to early representation but you aren't going to run any specialists (except for the lone engineer)? I would prefer to build those wonders+forge AND run some scientists. That way you get higher research and pop a GE every now and then in between the GS's, and rush a wonder or two across the game.

 

[MrCynical]

The trouble with running a city generating purely Great Engineer points is that you can't get the output high enough, at least until the industrial age. If you just want one very early engineer then it might be OK, but beyond that you'll have to starve your civ of other GP. Either you don't generate any GPP elsewhere (so the few engineers are all you get), or the engineer farm just won't catch up to your other GP generating cities. I find it better to push the number of specialist and/or wonders higher to produce a mix of GP. With luck you'll still end up with as many engineers as you would have with the pure engineer farm, and you'll have other GP as well.

In the industrial age you can run 5 engineers (or 8 with the ironworks) in one city, which makes this approach more effective if you specifically want an engineer. Unfortunately engineers are not as good then unless you still need one for a corporation. Since they can't hurry spaceship components they are of limited use in a space race.

 

[Rusten]

Up until liberalism you'll probably want GSs over GEs so aiming for those wonders doesn't seem worth it for GE points.

The most viable tactic I see is to use a philosophical civ and put the NE in your IW city as your GPP rate will be okay regardless of the NE. GEs are more useful post-renaissance anyway. Being philosophical it shouldn't be too hard grabbing steel with liberalism either to set up an early IW.

 

[CivCorpse]

The trouble with running a city generating purely Great Engineer points is that you can't get the output high enough, at least until the industrial age. If you just want one very early engineer then it might be OK, but beyond that you'll have to starve your civ of other GP. Either you don't generate any GPP elsewhere (so the few engineers are all you get), or the engineer farm just won't catch up to your other GP generating cities. I find it better to push the number of specialist and/or wonders higher to produce a mix of GP. With luck you'll still end up with as many engineers as you would have with the pure engineer farm, and you'll have other GP as well.

In the industrial age you can run 5 engineers (or 8 with the ironworks) in one city, which makes this approach more effective if you specifically want an engineer. Unfortunately engineers are not as good then unless you still need one for a corporation. Since they can't hurry spaceship components they are of limited use in a space race.

Good points, but a GE can help in a space race. The space elevator isn't worth the hammers spent vs the hammers saved plus the side trip to robotics. But with a GE to rush 1/2 of it, then it may become worthwhile. Especially if you have deep pockets and can afford to rush buy it under U.S. In that case you have effectively used the engineer and gold to rush space ship parts. Something you cannot normally do.

 

[CivCorpse]

Is this a viable tactic on levels above Monarch?

1. make sure you run no GPP generating activities in any of your cities.
2. build the pyramids, the hanging gardens and a forge in one city; run an engineer for a total of 7 Great Engineer points per turn.
3. use the Engineers that are produced to excecute some brilliant plan that involves lots of wonder rushing.
4. Win.

QUOTE]

Step1: collect underpants.
Step2: ???
Step3: profit

 

[slobberinbear]

I think building such expensive wonder as pyramids just for it's GE points is a waste. I mean, you get access to early representation but you aren't going to run any specialists (except for the lone engineer)? I would prefer to build those wonders+forge AND run some scientists. That way you get higher research and pop a GE every now and then in between the GS's, and rush a wonder or two across the game.

I agree with this approach. In a wonderspam capital, you can eventually get 3-4 wonders that generate Great Engineers, and you'll eventually get a few. In the late game, factories and industrial parks add to your ability to run engineer specialists, too.

I have gotten over the habit of burning GEs for wonders all the time, though. Now I only do that for the very expensive wonders, like the Apostolic Palace and late-game wonders. Other than that, I usually settle them (+3 hammers, +6 beakers under representation) or save them for a corporation -- Mining, Inc. is wonderful.

 

[Tatran]

This approach is only interesting when playing as Frederick.
Forge (1) + factory (discount,4) + industrial park (3) -> 8 GEs
Extra : wonders + iron works
And Frederick is Philosophical.

 

[The Rook]

Step1: collect underpants.
Step2: ???
Step3: profit

You read my mind.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Good points, but a GE can help in a space race. The space elevator isn't worth the hammers spent vs the hammers saved plus the side trip to robotics. But with a GE to rush 1/2 of it, then it may become worthwhile. Especially if you have deep pockets and can afford to rush buy it under U.S. In that case you have effectively used the engineer and gold to rush space ship parts. Something you cannot normally do.

IMO space elevator can use a buff - it's not typically worthwhile. I saw in a game though that someone got robotics off the internet and had a GE . That probably makes it more worthwhile.

The GE early in the game emphasis has already been touched on - the mids come at a huge opportunity cost, and if you're not using them to their rep-granting potential that opportunity cost is even higher. Granted, GE's are ok beakers under rep, but it's still not going to match up with even a non-mids gp farm, and what wonders will you GE rush if your tech is slowed enough that the AI beats you to wonder techs ?

I actually like the priest method more (mostly with egypt or maybe if you went unrestricted leaders and put a creative leader in arabia), as the hammers are still there and the gold can fund certain things quite nicely - things like abusing war chariots on earth 18 civ or something.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

Usually you want GS's, but if it's winning the liberalism race or getting 3 GE's, I'm taking the 3 GE's man. There's never a great engineer I can't use. The idea that you "want" GS's more in monarch and above is not very well worded. A better way of phrasing it is that you can't get GE's very effectively if you're playing at a high level.

Lower levels... go for it. Better with a philosophical leader too. But I have a question: should we pollute the GP pool with national epic?

 

[slobberinbear]

GP pollution is important to Obsolete and a few other purists. Then there are those of us who simply want more GPs, and are willing to risk getting an artist here or there. Two words: Golden Age (or Culture Bomb, take your pick )

Oh, and the Hagia Sophia and Three Gorges Dam also give Great Engineer GPPs (on top of Pyramids and Hanging Gardens). With these wonders, I was able to get quite a few GEs in my Gandhi game, and save one for Mining, Inc.

 

[MrCynical]

Good points, but a GE can help in a space race. The space elevator isn't worth the hammers spent vs the hammers saved plus the side trip to robotics. But with a GE to rush 1/2 of it, then it may become worthwhile. Especially if you have deep pockets and can afford to rush buy it under U.S. In that case you have effectively used the engineer and gold to rush space ship parts. Something you cannot normally do.

You've highlighted the problem in your own post - you have to take time out of the race to research Robotics. Given all the other boosts to spaceship production, there is no way the elevator will save enough time on the last component to repay the time wasted researching robotics.

Even if you some how get Robotics without taking time to research it (trade, espionage, internet), the time needed to build the elevator is still unlikely to be relevant. Research, not production is the limiting factor on the sspaceship, so the only time saved by the elevator is on the very last component. As long as it is built before you begin the last component, it doesn't matter how long it takes to build it, and given you can buy it, and there's already an engineer at Fusion, you have plenty of other options in the unlikely eventuality that you still haven't finished it by then. The only real uses for an engineer at this stage are to bulb a fraction of a tech or trigger a golden age (again, due to the fusion engineer a GE is the last GP type you want here).

 

[The Rook]

GP pollution is important to Obsolete and a few other purists.

Obsolete? Mr GP wonderspam lottery person? You are joking aren't you? Although I know he loves to complain every time he gets an artist.

 

[futurehermit]

I've thought for a long time that generating a pair of early GEs for Machinery and Engineering can be a really powerful approach. It gives you access to xbows, maces (with CS), pikes, and--most importantly--trebs. If you could hit it before the AI gets feudalism, or at least before they get a ton of longbows everywhere, you could do a lot of damage. If you are a philosophical leader and have stone it could be possible. pyramids-HG-forge. HG requires math which is on the way to CS. while you research CS you could be bulbing machinery and engineering. the rub is also working in MC, which is expensive and essential. you could oracle MC, but that risks a GP. you could take the risk if you have a calculated backup plan for the GP.

i think it is possible, but optimal or desirable? depends on the situation, but not often enough to be a general approach i would think.

 

[Levgre]

I don't think a GE farm is worth it. Many of the wonders are honestly not worth the cost in missed great people from only working towards great engineers.

Here is what I find the best strategy, which obviously works much better if you are philosophical, and perhaps only if you are philosophical.

Get pyramids - pop 1 great engineer.
Save it for Hanging Gardens (if you have marble) or Great Library (if you have stone). Regardless, try to get both of these wonders.
Get Metal casting, maybe best with oracle, and specialize the city until a 2nd great engineer.
Use 2nd great engineer for Parthenon(build in another city other than Engineer one) or national epic (if you don't have marble or quite high production), or if you have marble use it for whatever wonder seems most useful to you.

At this point you will hopefully have national epic, great library, parthenon, pyramids, hanging gardens, and if you have got a great scientist you can bulb for philosophy for +350% total, which with 7 base GE points is 24 GE points, so with popping a Great person every 4-5 turns you will get your share of Great Engineers, quite close to, if not greater than, the same rate as if you made the city only get GE points.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Its a valid stratergy, but you have to accept the polution of your GP Points with Artists/Scientist etc.

you really can't run a Great Engineer only farm. But you can run it at a ratio of 40-60% odds of getting a Great engineer.

Whats even better is when you pop a Great Engineer at a ratio of 15% or lower..Man..I just love that..

Trouble is, I find Scientists much more useful pre Liberialism/Scentific method, and when I start popping Great merchants, etc instead of my 75%+ great Scientist, I get Peeved.

On Obsolete and his/her Great Artist Polution, I love great Artists. Settle them for 5 gold and culture, or use them for a golden age, or save them for late game golden ages when you end up with a surplus of 'useless' Great Scientists.....Aaaaarrrrgggghhhhh.....heh heh heh I've ended up with 5 surplus Great scientists in a late game...Just waiting for a great artist to start my 4th GP generated golden age..lol..lol..

 

[Magma_Dragoon]

Step1: collect underpants.
Step2: ???
Step3: profit

My thoughts exactly.

 

[mboettcher]

I run GE farms all the time. Usually, however, its only with Germany. They can have up to 11 engineers in their iron works city. And if your using Freddy, build national epic, run pacifism and build the couple GE wonders (mids, hagia, hanging, etc) then you can start to push towards 150+ mark in GPP engineers.

This usually happens if I running a wonder farm as a supplental economic plan. Since you can have only so many GE points, I always try farming not only engineers but also merchants as they are very strong as settled specialists. Plus Great prophets are great for wonderfarming as well since they settle as such powerful economic specialists.

This economy works best if you have one strong city site for production and a second that can produce a lot of food and hence specialists, settlers and workers needed to rapidly bolster your expansion while you spend a strong city's time building early wonders. You can't build all the wonders but if you have a good resource (marble is more versatile than stone for this strat in my opinion, but both are very good) and choose wonders that synergize well then you can build a hell of a lot of momentum.

And of course you need the right civ and leader to pull this off. Freddy/Germany are the best I think to farm GE and continue the supercity strategy even into the modern era. (where you can get wonders like eiffel tower, three gorges, cristo, stat of lib and other super wonders)

 

[mboettcher]

Some times its best to try and bulb anything thats not a Great artist. You can always burn a Great scientist for a tech or settle for academies. PLus there is strength in variety.