Great Generals - test game 1: Charismatic

[carl corey]

Following the discussion in the Great General Uses thread I decided to start a game in which to explore different ways of using the Great Generals. This first game will feature a Charismatic leader (Churchill of England) and the following conditions:

Start Conditions
Map Type: Pangaea (lots of opponents to choose from)
Map Size: Standard
Game Speed: Normal
Difficulty Level: Monarch (it's my current level, and I'm sure with your help we won't have any problems beating it)
Barbarians: enabled, normal (not raging)
Victory Conditions: all enabled, but I'll be trying to win by Domination or Conquest

I'll probably branch this into more than one game when we get our first Great General to compare the different uses.

Here are links to the rounds already played
Round 1: 4000BC - 2680BC
Round 2: 2680BC - 1200BC
Round 3: 1200BC - 150AD
Round 4: 150AD - 980AD
Round 5: 980AD - 1420AD
Round 6: 1420AD - 1595AD
Round 7: 1595AD - 1720AD
Round 8: 1720AD - 1916AD
Round 9: 1916AD - 1960AD


Here's the starting position:



Looks like quite a city if we settle in place. We have three food resources - rice, banana and clams -, two wine tiles (a winery gives +1 food so they're food neutral), a forested plains hill and a lake. Good thing we're Charismatic as we'll need all the happiness in the world to work all those good tiles.

The opening will probably be: settle in place, build Work Boat using the forested hill, then warrior until size 2, then worker, all of this while researching Bronze Working (lots of whipping envisioned) followed by Agriculture. Mysticism will have to come in there somewhere for Stonehenge/Monuments (more inclined toward Monuments, I don't really want Great Prophet points). I'll take any advice and you're all free to play along or ahead but please don't post any spoilers.

 

[johnny_rico]

You're almost forced to build in place. Moving the settler will cost turns. What tech's does churchill start out with? I don't where to find that info (either on the civilopedia or here). I agree with you build order. With any luck that goody hut will pop a scout.

This city looks like a good place to pop great scientists. I'd really consider being the first to liberalism. Pop nationhood, research gunpowder, use a scientist for printing press and get to rifling asap. You can drafting redcoats in short order. That's looking very far ahead, obviously.

With any luck you'll have a neighbor close by for an early war plus less focus on building settlers yourself. Looking forward to seeing the lay of the land.

 

[futurehermit]

settle in place.

bronze-ag. then anhusb if no copper. if copper probably better to go for wheel. if you need early border popping then go myst, but if you can hold out until libraries or a religion that would probably be better.

i would suggest that you try and war asap so that you can get your first GG as soon as possible. and i would suggest that you use it on a medic3 unit to see how powerful that can be early on. alternatively, you could use it to promote a bunch of 1-promotion units to 2-promotion units. i think those are the 2 best options early on and i would favour the medic option.

 

[carl corey]

You're almost forced to build in place. Moving the settler will cost turns. What techs does Churchill start out with? I don't where to find that info (either on the civilopedia or here). I agree with you build order. With any luck that goody hut will pop a scout.

This city looks like a good place to pop great scientists. I'd really consider being the first to liberalism. Pop nationhood, research gunpowder, use a scientist for printing press and get to rifling asap. You can drafting redcoats in short order. That's looking very far ahead, obviously.

With any luck you'll have a neighbor close by for an early war plus less focus on building settlers yourself. Looking forward to seeing the lay of the land.

Churchill starts with Fishing and Mining, that's why I can build a Fishing Boat right away and also research Bronze Working. (vanilla civilizations, Warlords civilizations)

Good points about scientists and being first to liberalism. That's why I said 'no Stonehenge', at least not in the capital. And I definitely want the Great Library there, but probably no other early wonders. Don't worry about looking too far ahead, I like to do that too.

settle in place.

bronze-ag. then anhusb if no copper. if copper probably better to go for wheel. if you need early border popping then go myst, but if you can hold out until libraries or a religion that would probably be better.

i would suggest that you try and war asap so that you can get your first GG as soon as possible. and i would suggest that you use it on a medic3 unit to see how powerful that can be early on. alternatively, you could use it to promote a bunch of 1-promotion units to 2-promotion units. i think those are the 2 best options early on and i would favour the medic option.

Yeap, if copper's close I'll go for the wheel. I've had my share of games that ended before they began due to 2-3 barbs attacking a newly founded city... Don't want that in my first online game! And for now there's no AH resource, so maybe we can skip that for later. Maybe even go for Archery to protect our future captured cities? Eh, there's time.

By the way, monuments are also good for the +1 happiness which we'll most likely need to counter-balance all those wars. But I guess we'll see where and if we really need them.

Will see about the Great General. I've used Medic 3 in quite a few games, but apart from some really early ones I haven't used the 'promoting lots of units' option. This will probably be the first branch, if useful of course.

 

[carl corey]

Round 1: 4000BC - 2680BC

A little exploring, a little teching, a little meeting our neighbors.

First things first: as decided I settled in place and...



Holy Cow! We now have 6 resource tiles in the capital. Marvelous, what can I say? That means AH becomes a pretty high priority. I still decided to go for Bronze Working first, what with all the potential whipping. By the way, the capital's hut gave us 33 gold. Meh, could have been better.

Our warrior started going in a big circle West-North-East with the second one projected to go South. Soon we had a revelation: we might be in the middle of the Universe and also able to block civs from one side and the other! (look at the minimap) Talk about feeling important...



Our crappy hut luck continued and we got a map for our efforts, revealing Egypt to the NE (it later turned out to be Hatty). We'll have to look for other victims or make sure she doesn't have horses if we decide to attack her. Those War Chariots are really gonna eat us otherwise.



We then finished Bronze Working and... nada. Zilch. No copper in sight. Oh well, since I was going for AH anyway for the cows, let's add the ponies as a goal. Agriculture -> Animal Husbandry it is for our research. In the meantime I decided to finish building the Warrior (2 turns) as my first one had to heal from a panther attack, then go into slavery and start on a worker. He'll have lots of juicy improvements to make, and later will have to pave the roads to horse city, wherever that will be.

Other victims... err... neighbors started popping up. Genghis Khan's scout got to us from SE, we saw a bit of Hannibal and Shaka to the E and Ragnar - don't know where, must have been a scout coming in and out of our range. There's one more hidden AI most probably W or NW.

Here's the complete list:



As you can see I chopped a forest to speed up the settler and also because I wanted to keep the worker near the cows and had two turns to spare.

Our Southern warrior popped another hut for... another warrior. Gah! Could we get something useful, perhaps a scout, or more gold? Or dare I say a tech?! I don't think so... We're probably done with huts, though by the end of the round we had 4 warriors, 3 of which were wandering outside our borders.

Now for the fun part. AH finished and revealed three horses, however none of them is in a very good position for us. Oh, we can get the south one for sure, but that won't make a grand city. Payback for our magnificent capital? On the other hand there's Ivory E of London, indicating us to go for Construction and War Elephants. As if we needed that indication.

Here's the discovered land so far:

North:


East:


South:


West:



I stopped here. Next research is probably the Wheel, to connect London to horse city. The only problem is, I'm not yet decided where to put horse city. Next to Hannibal is out of the question. North has lots of Jungle maybe good for cottages, maybe going to pop Iron there. South horse has two deserts nearby and lots of water tiles. Not my ideal choice for a second city. Or maybe we can go for Hunting -> Archery and settle near the ivory? Probably too extreme, but I'm open for suggestions.

 

[futurehermit]

Looks like Shaka to the East? If so, that is trouble. Your best bet would be to expand thataway and take him out prior to him getting powerful. He's an unstoppable force when he gets rolling...

I never skip anhusb. At the very least you want to reveal the horses resource to help with ideal city placement. Horses are a high-production tile.

Seems like ironworking is really important this game. Lots of jungle.

You have ivory though, so here is what I suggest:

-You don't have copper or a horse-based UU so an early attack is out. You have Shake (seemingly) to the east, which spells trouble. You have ivory to the east.

-After settling horse city for barb defence, beeline construction and settle either one E of the ivory or two E of the ivory depending on what further scouting reveals to the NE of the ivory. Then use elephants and catapults to take out Shaka, razing if you can't afford to keep the cities. You must limit him. He's worse than Monty imo. Less of a psycho, but more powerful imo. I've had him vassalize all 3 civs on his continent before :yikes:

-Hatty is easy to get along with and no threat really once her early power period is over. Once war chariots are outdated and the early power of creative tapers off you can take her out. If she expands toward you, you could take her out with elephants and catapults. That combo is very powerful and has a very long lifespan. You only need fear a civ with engineering really. And by that time you should be able to mix in some maces and xbows to help with that.

I was thinking today, what about using your first TWO GGs on medic 3 units. Basically, then develop two SoD and rampage through an enemy empire. You could sack cities and heal quickly at a very rapid pace. Ideally, you would surprise the civ and take 4 cities (2 per stack) before they could mount a counter-offensive or substantial defence.

 

[johnny_rico]

Wow. You've got a lot of nice real estate. Popping the cow in the BFC was very nice. Now the city with another decent hammer tile of which there are few.

My initial thought is to secure that ivory. I like the idea of building a city 2N and 1E of the cows. You'll secure the gems, ivory, and the two cities will share the cow. I think that provides nice flexibility for building in both cities early. Once the capital is up and going, I think you'll be able to dedicate the cow to the second city until bureaucracy, and I'd take it back for the +50% hammer output. With a forge and Organized religion, that'll be six hammers, no?

Another alternative is to build 4E of London, share the cows and rice, while securing the ivory and build a third city 3N of the cows to secure the second bananas and the gems.


However, you still need to work in a city for the horses on the peninsula, which is arguably more important than blanketing the area east of London with your cultural borders from North to South keeping hatty and hannibal out if you so desire.

My preference for the horse city would be 2N of the horses. The reason I like this spot is because you will share a few water squares with London. I think most view non financial civs working non resource water tiles as a bad thing. And while, the horse city will have a lot of water tiles, at least there is some overlap. On the plus side, it looks like they will all be 2F, 2C with a lighthouse.

The other factor here is city build order. Seems like that horse peninsula is pretty safe. Thus I would try to build my 4th or 5th city down there, however, you need the horses else you are going to have to get archery and skip an early war. Since there is no copper, you are skipping an early war anyway. I thinking hunting, archery, settlers, and scouting is key to get your cities in the best possible places. You can be there is going to be iron close by, the question is where (horse peninsula, close to the gold).

Speaking of the gold, I like the idea of a city 1W or 1NW of the gold so you'll nab the sugar, which can be farmed once you have iron working. You can always switch it to a plantation later but the extra food is nice early. You should have enough happiness (or does sugar add health?).

Last thing, if you decide to build north and south, 1S of the horses up north by the bananas and clams might also be a good city spot. However, it's in the jungle and should be available to you for a while. My guess is a barb city will spawn up there.

 

[futurehermit]

Forget hunting and archery. You have chariots. Active barb defense ftw.

 

[johnny_rico]

Forget hunting and archery. You have chariots. Active barb defense ftw.

While that would usually be my mantra as well, It always bugs me to build an early city somewhere when the turf is going to be available for quite a while. I like to build towards my neighbors and backfill to obvious locations later. The horse city makes the most sense now but I don't see CC being to build east of the ivory if the horse city is built second. It appears to me that hannibal, shaka and hatty are east of london.

 

[futurehermit]

I don't know, if I were playing I would take the horse city first, and keep a scout/warrior around the ivory. If someone settled there, I would mass chariots and take it from them if necessary. But I think you should be able to get it. No one is really close to that spot.

Pretty much I always settle a military resource with 2nd city. It sucks that it's in that location this game, I agree. But it's too much of a waste to research hunting-archery. So many other important things that need to be researched asap.

With that ivory there we want construction as fast as humanly possible.

 

[johnny_rico]

In the end, I agree with you and would do the same thing. I loathe having to research archery. It's also a bummer to waste a settler in a location that will be available for a long time. The lesser of two evils I suppose, copper and/or horses need to be in your second city. I would think that iron will be readily available.

 

[futurehermit]

Yes, I imagine there will be iron as well. However, I don't think we need it for military since we can do elephants and catapults (nothing stands up to that really). Ironworking will be nice to clear away all the jungle though. I imagine we could get iron by trade.

The only time I will consider researching archery is this:

1) No copper, no horses

2) Not enough forests to chop GW.

If there are enough forests to chop the GW, I'll just research masonry and chop it and build in peace using warriors as a garrison. I'll beeline construction, trading for iron and secure iron. From there I'll use mostly catapults with a few axes/spears for stack defence and swords for mopping up.

 

[carl corey]

I'd go with the 2N from the south horses site first, but I'm concerned by the fact that I'll need a Monument to get the horses. Maybe if I move my worker with my settler there and start chopping right away? That would mean going for Mysticism first. Ugh... I just thought that with the worker gone there I won't have a worker in the capital anymore.

Alternative sites:
- 1NW of the horses (on one of the deserts) with instant access to clams and horses. I could even build a boat in the capital and move it there right away. It's not like I'll have anything to build for now after the Settler. This would let me get away from Mysticism for a while to get what?
- 1 NE of the horses, getting the fish and forgoing the clams; the fish will still need a border pop.

So, research path: if 2N or 1NE of horses, probably Mysticism first, then Wheel. If 1NW of horses, then the Wheel followed by Pottery and Writing (whip both Granary and later Library) sounds good. By the way, there's now a jungle on the bananas. Drat...

futurehermit, are you saying we should build the GW or that you'd build it IF you have no copper & horses? I'd really keep the GP pool going for GSs.

 

[johnny_rico]

I think he was referring to his games. As you have horses, skip the GW. What if you built stonehenge in the horses/clam city. Or, might even make more sense to chop stonehenge for a horses/fish city. The culture from those two cities will eventually engulf the crab tile giving you all three seafood sources. This means health will not be much of a problem and happiness is grand with a charismatic leader. Very promising in terms of growth.

Whipping is going to be painful because it is unlikely your cities will get too unhappy. Too bad that stone is out of reach or the pyramids might have been viable.

I would continue teching along and building chariots and expanding. You've also got gems and gold to contribute to happiness/research.

With a start like this, I prefer to use the oracle for metal casting and trade for iron working. either way, that's a pretty important tech since copper is not immediately visible.

Wondering where copper will show up. If that another peninsula to the SW? There are also some unexplored tiles to the NE.

 

[carl corey]

I think he was referring to his games. As you have horses, skip the GW. What if you built stonehenge in the horses/clam city. Or, might even make more sense to chop stonehenge for a horses/fish city. The culture from those two cities will eventually engulf the crab tile giving you all three seafood sources. This means health will not be much of a problem and happiness is grand with a charismatic leader. Very promising in terms of growth.

I actually don't need another clam that much, since I have one in the capital already, but there's still the matter of what tiles to work on that second city. If it's set 1NW it has two early good tiles. Let's face it, it will never be a great city, but ivory-gems, gold, and Northern horse could turn out quite well. Plus, two capitals (Shaka's and Hannibal's) nearby mean another two good sites. So second city will get the horses some way and that's it.

Whipping is going to be painful because it is unlikely your cities will get too unhappy. Too bad that stone is out of reach or the pyramids might have been viable.

I'm not really worried about whipping. I'll have enough food to grow pretty fast. And that's why I want the Granary very early in the capital, so I could grow even faster. I'm thinking of putting Sailing on the research lists for lighthouses too.

I would continue teching along and building chariots and expanding. You've also got gems and gold to contribute to happiness/research.

With a start like this, I prefer to use the oracle for metal casting and trade for iron working. either way, that's a pretty important tech since copper is not immediately visible.

Hmm, wonders. I'd say if I go for an early one it's either Stonehenge or the Oracle, definitely not both. Too many Great Prophet points and going with a religion will not help this much on Pangaea since I'll be in contact with all the civs. But if I have what to build I'd still forgo both and go for Maths & Construction while getting out some more cities. I'll want Calendar (bye-bye Stonehenge) for bananas and sugar and going all the way to Priesthood for the Oracle seems kind of a waste of time.

Wondering where copper will show up. If that another peninsula to the SW? There are also some unexplored tiles to the NE.

I think there are some big landmasses both E and W. I'll try to explore more, but probably not with the warriors. I'll need Hunting for elephants anyway, so I'll probably build some scouts or use some extra chariots for the job. I do hope we have Iron nearby though. I bet all the other civs will have copper... Maybe I'll take one from them.

 

[johnny_rico]

In regards to the clam, etc... I meant you've got a clam and crab in the bay of your capital. The fish is off to the east of the southerly horses. Get the fish with the horses city and the culture from those two cities will grab the crab south of your capital (though the crab will not be in either BFC, you'll still get the health bonus). Coupled with the happiness from charismatic, you'll be set for growth.

Since calendar will be a priority, you might skip stonehenge and monuments. Perhaps if a religion makes it way to you or found one, convert for the happiness.

I'm an oracle addict and I find it difficult to avoid building. It would be a habit I might be wise to wean myself of. All those turns of teching to priesthood might be better spent elsewhere. Since metal casting is so expensive, I usually justify the turns spent on mysticism, meditation, priesthood in the early game worth it for the oracle and the metal casting technology. Plus it has great trade value.

 

[carl corey]

Nevermind, I thought the south thing was a clam too. Should have looked before I talked. As for the fish, there could be iron there somewhere, and 2N of the fish seems an ok site too for a later city... Hehe, I love starting positions, they're worse than playing chess with all those possibilities! Lol.

It's very true of Oracle for Metal Casting, but lately I'm doing the slingshot only if I have something specific in mind: like forges for an Industrious civ, or Cho-Ko-Nu's for the Chinese, stuff like that, or if I manage to get a religion while going for Priesthood. Plus I need all the forests I can save for the Great Library. There's no marble nearby so I'll need to build it without bonuses.

 

[futurehermit]

Definitely don't build GW. Only build it if NO horses AND NO copper AND sufficient forests to chop.

The fish tile will give more food, but less commerce, so maybe the other seafood is better for the horse city, and it allows horses to be hooked up without border expansion = good.

 

[carl corey]

Ok.... new development: there's copper near Shaka and Hatty and I've just completed my Settler. I have two warriors on the way to an eventual copper site to protect me from panthers and such, but I'm really not sure I'd make it there. I mean, we're talking about 5 turns to get there, found city on the 6th. Don't think it's worth the risk...

On second thought, I just checked the log: none of Shaka, Hannibal and Hatty have adopted Slavery, and only Hannibal start with mining. How likely is it that they don't know there's copper there?!

Pros: nobody seems to know about the copper yet, close to Shaka -> fast attack on him

Cons: I might get beaten to the site and then I'm just a sitting duck for barbs. I'd have to backtrack for an ivory site then use the next settler for horses; in a competition with Hatty I'd lose the cultural war anyway; maintenance will be high, plus hard to build and maintain link with capital and hard to bring units from the capital in the attack.

Seems like too many cons.

 

[johnny_rico]

I think that is too far away. However, you can the copper, corn, dye, and ivory in one city. Very nice. There will be a lot of cultural pressure and you'll need a monument quickly. Plus, it'll need more culture because of hatty. With some settler spam, there is a lot of nice turf.

Of course, the safe play is to settle close to home and build a nice network of cities and have some confidence iron is nearby.

You wanted an early war, you can certainly have it. Since you need hunting for the camp, you can always protect your axes with some spears.